Can we talk about Postmodernism?

Pynchon and postmodernism is more about meta-discursive narrative. They understand their role in literature, or entertainment, and steal from other texts, genres, music, etc. to make a new form of art.

>self referential irony submerged in encyclopedic test.
That's probably one part of Pynchon, and not even the best part. Even Wilde did self-referential irony in Importance of Being Earnest - doesn't make it postmodern.

Biggest things for postmodernism is playing with form, grammar, genre, conventions, and so on. It's not particularly new, all artists do that, we've just reached a point where we're playing with the form of art itself, not just certain literary conventions.

god i miss early highschool, I was a virgin and not ashamed of it, I had lots of friends, a future to bullshit about, dreams, my brain still worked, I got high but only on the weekends, I went to parties, stole my mom's car to pick up girls I was too afraid to touch, and while I hated authority I didn't view it with metaphysical disdain. What a time, I'm naked in the world now.

iktf

postmodernism is for faggots

Attached: 1521159804947.jpg (580x834, 142K)

Postmodernism uses whatever it deems aesthetic, even if it is "low art" like music or comic books. That's why it fights against the "nitty-gritty" and dark "realism" of modernism, which was a depressed period during industrialisation and two WWs. Arguably, postmodernism raises up the aesthetic from class society and appreciates art for its beauty, rather than social capital. Unless you're thinking of that spooky conspiracy form of postmodernism, which has come to mean social Marxism or something.

Go take a literature class you fucking morons. Autodidactism is not for everyone, clearly.

>g-go take a literature class
>I have no argument but at least a sound confident!

>Postmodernism sucks XD
>Here's a postmodern picture btw
Back to r*ddit manchild

You don't know what postmodernism is, you've swallowed the DFW cuckpill. You think it's irony, or Marxism, or blue-haired SJWs who hate whiteys.

You've clearly never read Pynchon, DeLillo, Gaddis, Calvino, Barth, Gass, Barthelme, etc. So why would I bother trying to state my case against a dilettante who has no knowledge?

Go back to your YouTube Peterson lecture, kid. And, even more ironically, Peterson never actually denounces postmodern literature itself.

>I found most of it boils down to self referential irony submerged in encyclopedic test.

Whew, good job. You've just cleared the air of decades of debate! You're a blood ripper!

cringe

>you don’t know what you’re talking about!
>I do, i just can’t explain it
Very convincing

So you admit to never reading them?

You're a larper and a fraud.

its for everyone who has a soul, which is a minuscule slice of the human apple of eden that's slowly being rotted away by the rest of the fetid fruit's exhausted nature

>Petersonites
>Having a soul
good one

>autodidactism
>petersonites
aren't they mostly unlearned NEETs whose sole outlet for information is YT University and then extremely beta mid-tier college fags? aren't those basically the opposite of autodidacts?

Finally. Some sanity.

It did take off, though. Not all of it is as esoteric as pic related. Like Seinfeld and reality TV have postmodern elements.

Nah, your definition of of postmodernist literature is too loose.

This blind hatred for postmodernism is fucking stupid and makes no sense.

I'm tired of this bullshit. Can someone recommend me good non-fiction and literary critique on the subject?

The propping up of postmodernist literature by the irony poisoned is ridiculous.

The only good criticism of modernity comes from the right. Read Guenon's Reign of Quantity or the first few chapters of Yockey' Imperium

>That's why it fights against the "nitty-gritty" and dark "realism" of modernism,

Unfortunately, architecture and many types of art still look like shit. Postmodernism was a critique of modernity but couldn't sustain a movement itself so terms were just borrowed by modernists to construct new metanarratives (gender is a construct, etc). We're still living in late modernity.

> Arguably, postmodernism raises up the aesthetic from class society and appreciates art for its beauty, rather than social capital.

But it failed miserably. Read the average Pitchfork review of a rap album. It's nothing but social capital and signaling. Most "low class" art is still horribly underappreciated by any actual critic. Who defends Kinkade? This is why postmodernism failed - people like their grand metanarratives, especially about themselves and their tribe.

Finally a voice of reason.

We jumped the line of progress lads. Took two steps forward and then one to the side, rather than back. Modernity to post-modernity was followed by jumping the tracks parallel to a new line of simultaneous hybrid modernity-post-modernity where sincerity and irony shit down the throats of each other, turding out the opposite. Sincerity in, irony out. We're never going back to the original path baby WHOOOOOOOOOO

what you're describing is called multitrack drifting and it's why we live in troubled times. You're only seeing the new track but there are nontrivial segments of the population who only see the old track

>Dunning Kruger: the post

>Who defends Kinkade?
Miles Mathis is a butthurt unknown painter turned culture critic who defends merit in art, I tend to agree with most things he says

Post modern fiction is simply boring as fuck most of the time.

That's not such a huge issue but when unthinking pseuds only think what the academia-media-publishing industrial complex tells them to think, everything stays shit

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Miles_Mathis
Is this guy?

>Mathis exhibits blatant anti-semitism in his writings. He has claimed without proof that many non-Jewish individuals are actually Jewish, including Jack NicklausWikipedia's W.svg,[22] C.S. Lewis,[23] Donald Trump,[24] Elon Musk,[25] Adolf Hitler,[26] Napoleon Bonaparte,[27] and Pierre-Simon de Laplace.[27]
Kek

Yeah postmodernism is an embarrassing relic at this point.
>muh Barthes
>muh Derrida

>The rest of the post asserts that science paywalls — rather than being relatively innocent capitalism-fueled endeavors — are set up to hide information.

This is embarrassing for everyone involved in this sentence.

rationalwiki character assassinations are to be placed in the garbage can in all instances. Do you take encyclopediadramatica articles as gospel on their subjects?

Go away Miles

The metanarrative is the same emancipatory liberalism from the Renaissance, specifically a/the Enlightenment reading of it (s/o to Kant), and in that way they are 'modernists' -- gender being a construct is the property of the metanarrative, rather than the metanarrative itself. Postmodernism tries/d to, in some cases, point out a metanarrative for what it is and suggest a movement beyond, like a localisation of metanarratives away from the general and universal towards the specific (ex post facto preceding dangerous leaps in logic, an untranslatable transference between different value systems), and in other cases the metanarrative underwent a kind of reform --especially along these Enlightenment lines of demystification -- by looking at the unconscious factors that otherwise disrupted the ideal rational contract society of liberalism (thank Freud), but also the conscious factors through the taking of logical arguments and propositions to their fullest extent so they were resolved (if they could be). Computerisation and the systematic testing of systems/internet localities still make 'postmodernism' here still a relevant factor, but on the technological advances in mass media have made metanarratives just as appealing, by proposing themselves to pseudo-literate high school grads. And from this point it is useful to say, by reference to your second point, that while pop narratives and clickbait have their place, postmodernism in an academic application (postgrad at least) has prompted the study, reassessment, etc. of past art styles that were otherwise ejected from the canon of modernism, and for this we should be a little thankful.

>I found most of it boils down to self referential irony submerged in encyclopedic test.

that was the first phase of postmodernism, the second and current phase is a snivelling purple haired queer lecturing you about white male privilege

you can read the man's work for yourself or you can skip to the rationalwiki hitpiece after googling his name and miss out on the lucid critique of contemporary art culture, I could care less either way but rationalwiki is notoriously a cancerous pro-academic website used to slander theory coming from outside the paradigm

>I found most of it boils down to self referential irony submerged in encyclopedic test.
>when you don't start with the greeks
That's why you read Plato, etc

The current phase is the alt-right.

>the second and current phase is a snivelling purple haired queer lecturing you about white male privilege
yeah those are pynchon and heidegger readers. they'd burn foucault if they read the first paragraph. the word you're looking for is SJW or tumblrina or Ameritard

>tfw no purple haired gf to read me femdom scat porn and tell me how fucking underage boipussi helps the boipussi
why did the antipostmodernists SJWs take away my anime colored 3DPD waifu potential? of all the things i hate them for taking over the primary color hair market is the one i can't forgive them. if just one of them wanted to read postmodernism without being triggered and calling the cops i'd be fucking married

...couldn't you just find a girl who reads pynchon and dye her hair?

>Computerisation and the systematic testing of systems/internet localities still make 'postmodernism' here still a relevant factor, but on the technological advances in mass media have made metanarratives just as appealing, by proposing themselves to pseudo-literate high school grads. And from this point it is useful to say, by reference to your second point, that while pop narratives and clickbait have their place, postmodernism in an academic application (postgrad at least) has prompted the study, reassessment, etc. of past art styles that were otherwise ejected from the canon of modernism, and for this we should be a little thankful.

nowadays, postmodernists have effectively become blue haired theocracy using their grand narratives of righteous victimhood to obtain power for themselves. See: Google, the culture industry's marketing branch( nyt, hollywood, pitchfork), you freaks are ultimately just sanctimonious bureaucrats

>nowadays, postmodernists have effectively become blue haired theocracy using their grand narratives of righteous victimhood to obtain power for themselves. See: Google, the culture industry's marketing branch( nyt, hollywood, pitchfork), you freaks are ultimately just sanctimonious bureaucrats
They're not though. It's just one Canadian dork confused postmodernism with modernism when talking to some blue hairs, so now we're stuck with a lot of people who think that blue hairs are postmodernists, when they're modernists. I mean, they believe in male and female brains. That right there is modernism. They believe in grand narratives. That's modernist too. They believe their depression is because of chemical and not because they're dicks who nobody likes and they need to take the hint and actually fucking kill themselves with a shotgun instead of holding up emergency services with their underdoses. Also modernism. They want to systematize human experience. Also modernism. You can tell they're modernists because the Great Exhibition which flaunted all these ideas and starts modernism is in the Victorian era, and they're all acting like hysterical Victorian London syphilitic whores who've "reformed".

Attached: IMG_0053.jpg (1055x839, 134K)

Postmodernist ideas of aesthetic function in the house of deconstruction and benefit from its economy without doing the chores. The basis of postmodern art is the appeal to the thought of pseudo-literates (and their money) that 'anything can be art' and that this in itself is a profound statement, and the end of the argument. It's a true statement, but for a cultural phase so obsessed with context, not many people prefer to look at the context of this interest in context, which to my mind is what the best postmodern art does rather than seek just the satisfaction of being situated in a gallery (or purposely outside the gallery as the case may be). Postmodernism in its more appropriative modes tends to look at craft or design placed in the context of the gallery, coinciding, without coincidence, with the misnomer of 'art' applied to things that are just basic design -- i.e. the application of presentation principles. These crafts are not just 'art' being appreciated for its beauty, they are the systematic and prolonged testing of the definition of art in the absense of any obvious guiding metaphysical principle for its creation (religion, history, etc.) -- all while falling victim, blindly, to the same mystifying elements of art and its metaphysics by not looking at the context of context.

Sure Miles.

>The basis of postmodern art is the appeal to the thought of pseudo-literates (and their money) that 'anything can be art' and that this in itself is a profound statement, and the end of the argument.
>when you're dumb enough to the A Pint of Plain was being held up as genuinely good poetry
You're either very ignorant or very retarded.

>to the A Pint of Plain
to *think*

Good argument. I concede.

You already made that joke, would I have called him a butthurt failed artist if I was actually him? I just happen to think he's a good art critic who argues from a rare pro-beauty perenialist perspective

There's a better bantering argument than you can provide after it in the book too. During it too, come to think of it. I might read that one again now it's on my mind.

Ok.

>Ok
But what if I don't read it now, user? Will that be okay?

>gender being a construct is the property of the metanarrative, rather than the metanarrative itself.

The problem is that the examination of the metanarrative became a new metanarrative by rolling up biology and sex. Once you take on modernist properties, it becomes a Frankenstein modernist paradigm.

>Postmodernism tries/d to, in some cases, point out a metanarrative for what it is and suggest a movement beyond, like a localisation of metanarratives away from the general and universal towards the specific

Oh come on dude. TV was around in the 60s, when they were discussing all this. Foucault was brilliant and it's not his fault if later generations picked apart his works in the worst way, but the TV wasn't going anywhere. The writing was on the wall even then.

>but on the technological advances in mass media have made metanarratives just as appealing, by proposing themselves to pseudo-literate high school grads.

We've just been lurching from one phase of modernity to another. There's a reason all the gendered snowflakes look to science to justify that shit.

>while pop narratives and clickbait have their place, postmodernism in an academic application

The problem isn't postmodernism. The problem is that it was a critique of modernism that didn't offer much else (that was realistic). And now we have new, flimsy metanarratives offered and enforced by Tumblrinas. It's not surprising people finally checked out. At least Christianity offers salvation.

reddit

All of this is conversations is pretty reddit to be desu. They're talking past each other and they don't even what they're talking about, while being trying desperately to make a point about le sjws XDDD.
It reminded me of the Chomsky Foucault debate, ironically.

>You already made that joke, would I have called him a butthurt failed artist if I was actually him?
Yep. It's called not being obvious.
>a rare pro-beauty perenialist perspective
Now I want to read him even less. This """""""pro-beauty"""""" stuff isn't rare at all, it's actually the most commonly held position between plebs and ignoramuses of every sort. Art should cater to my limited sensibilities! It should also require talent (here's an example of talent: a neoclassical painting)! The oath of the horathii! Badass! Fucking postmodenists/leftists/feminists/modern artists/prentious art students (your subject of study is worthless by the way, get a real job)/muh money laundering scheme/muh daughter could have made it/. It's all so boring. It's all so tiring. Pleb rage of this kind should be made illegal and punished by execution in public plaza.

>you should be executed for being disgusted by ugly, poorly conceived, pointless art that is used for money laundering by Franco-Anglo-Judaic oligarchs

Yep. Well I would allow you to dislike Pollock but you should at least appreciate Picasso or Rothko. I'm being generous here.

He nests his critique in a years-long investigation into the origins of post-beauty art and irony as a substitute/shield against sincerity, and the critique is genuinely called-for when you realize that the rise of Duchamp or John Cage to greater primacy in the modern consciousness than virtuosic artists has been largely artificial and forced by certain powers that be

>you've swallowed the DFW cuckpill.
>You think it's irony, or Marxism, or blue-haired SJWs who hate whiteys.
As a dfw fan boy im gonna have to ask you to explain how there's a single god damn connection anywhere between those 3 definitions of postmodern and DFW

Not that guy but exactly what did you want him to argue against?
his first post was responding to like six people

His argument is pretty clearly that a number of postmodern writers, such as those he listed, do not exemplify this style of "self-referential irony in encyclopedic texts". Or if they do, certainly can't be said to "boil down" to this description.

So, again, have you ever read any of them?

couldnt even get the distinction between literary postmodernism and philosophical postmodernism down

ugh jeez why are you so dumb

please leave

>those are pynchon and heidegger readers.
What on earth?

do you really think these SJW bogeymen you bitch about read fucking pychon and heidegger?

Where does this lineage derive from? What about these people can be said to be inherited from postmodern literature?

This is literally all just shit you derived from peterson man

no one else thinks these things, much less publicly asserts them, for fucks sake.

>no one else thinks these things, much less publicly asserts them, for fucks sake.
believe me, lots of people know about this, but you can't talk about it publicly or on normie social media because the thoughtcrime police will ruin your life.

>Pollock was ironic

>What on earth?
>do you really think these SJW bogeymen you bitch about read fucking pychon and heidegger?
I think that user was being sarcastic. They probably don't read them or Foucault. They would burn them if they knew. Or even if they heard about the Nazi thing with Heidegger.

I didn't say Pollock was ironic, though his outsized valuation as a producer of commodity art was a symptom of the same memeplex that placed irony and the dissolution of convention atop the hierarchy of artistic merit. Pollock's art was an expression of a degraded ethos

Greenberg, the key advocate for Pollock and abstract expressionism in general, didn't have a place for people like Duchamp in the canon of formalism, which was in his mind the sequence from Cezanne to Picasso to ab ex -- not so much a dissolution of convention but a new American art for a new American century. Illusionism was a European tradition, but formalism was still very much a serious art, for serious consumers of art who knew a little about it and its development historically. The art world is often at odds with itself, and you'll find that Duchamp and the playfulness associated with him only really became popular in the late 50s as a movement away from the stifling nature of academic formalism. And even then, the art to benefit from this rediscovery: Neo Dada, assemblage, minimalism, conceptualism, weren't popular consumerist art -- it wasn't until pop art and Warhol that celebrity and irony emerged as dominant forces in the art market by the art itself being more accessible and colourful to the average middle-class consumer.

Good reply, thanks for reigning me in slightly without being snarky about it in typical Veeky Forums fashion.

Attached: 1487114632928.png (576x699, 226K)

Pic semi related

Attached: 1510032077667.jpg (720x720, 132K)

Fucking hang yourself
derpibooru.org/1248323

Attached: Bronies, this is your mindset.jpg (307x156, 24K)

...

What's the source for that pic?

Also what's these kinds of pics called in general and where can i find more?

Attached: 1520370381001.png (787x692, 1.28M)

fried gennies

Can't post modernism be used to disguise bad writing/no talent?

Fashwave had so much potential as an artistic movement but the creatively bankrupt man-children on pol can't into nuance

Postmodernism is being sincerely insincere rather than insincerely sincere. Or maybe it's the opposite

It's largely just iconoclastic.

It's not the post modernism of the work itself but the "post modernism"(that's essentially used as a fashion choice) of the commentators. It's when people genuinely believe you're an idiot for not liking a fucking urinal put on display, simply because it "challenges the meaning of art"(art has been essentially meaningless ever since subjective/cultural perceptions became part of its definition, we should really just have words that describe mediums like combing painting/drawing/etching under one class of things due to actual similarities) or because whether or not it's bad is subjective(therefore you are not allowed to subjectively dislike it, because they ironically still hold on to the worship of objectivity and hatred of subjectivity, all the while claiming the opposite).

just put on some clothes if you dont like being naked, retard

Peterson isn't some edgy youtube channel that gets 20 thousands views per video. He sells out theaters, gets millions of views and gets television time every country he visits. You are seriously out of the loop if you don't think Peterson and what he speaks against are not mainstream.