Was the Tokugawa shogunate literally the worst fucking thing that could have happened in the history of Japan?

Was the Tokugawa shogunate literally the worst fucking thing that could have happened in the history of Japan?

Thanks to the Tokugawa Japan was a feudal country until the 1850s, only then things changed and it was only because the rest of the world was pissed at Yoshinobu for being a faggot.

If the Mori had won the Sengoku Jidai, for example, Japan would have turned into a country of trade and seafaring.

With no sankoku, there would have been more contact with China and the West. Commerce would have made Japan prosper, and reinvestments of taxation into buildings and infrastructure rather than the military would make the country flourish as a result.

Technologies, inventions, discoveries and new methods of production would arrive earlier on Japan, turning it into a more developed nation way before the Meiji Restauration.

Tokugawas are fucking cunts.

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books.google.com/books?id=A70rqmKB7ikC&dq=sakoku edicts engaging Japan&source=gbs_navlinks_s
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Tokugawas did nothing wrong, it made them super protective of the country and not get corrupted by imperialist.

Maybe it was because all Japanese were cunts? And still are.

t. Zhang

Relative peace with a focus on economic growth and stability and control while slowly importing western science and ideas and having a flourishing culture isn't too bad though, right? Especially since once they couldn't do it anymore, they had created the perfect conditions and bedrock needed to modernize their nation in a never before seen speed, becoming a modern superpower in what, 20-30 years? Doesn't seem like all bad to me.

It really requires a lot of background to understand why tokugawa closed the country.

but tl;dr: it was circumstance, rather than anyone fucking up.

but we have to go back to Toyotomi's rule, he finished uniting all of japan and got the population to turn in their weapons, but now he was stuck with hundreds of thousands of people with no professional skill other than breaking shit and killing people.

So what does Toyotomi do with the most battle hardened veteran army in Asia? he tries to conquer Korea and China. Partly for the glory, partly because he knew all those soldiers doing fucking nothing in Japan would result in an uprising of some kind.

well the invasion failed, and it was bad that Toyotomi didn't get the glory, but it was good that Japan wasted their entire veteran army getting murdered by Chinese and Koreans, but also bad now that China is fucking pissed, and Japan was vulnerable to counterattacks from China, or worse, from European colonial powers.

Tokugawa was put in a tricky position, the army was gutted which was both good and bad for him, but ultimately the shogunate was vulnerable and he was man who wanted complete security with his power. So closing the country off from foreign influence was seen as the best way to stave off possible influence or invasions from China or Europe, and also keep the Shogunate's focus inward towards the country, and consolidating its power throughout the lands it held, rather than expanding outward like Toyotomi did.

The Shogun usurped the authority of the Emperor, leading to Japan's humiliation by America in the 1850s and 1940s.
>2016
>Not unironically updating Restoration-era rhetoric to get your friends to vote for Trump

I disagree entirely.
From what I know this is no where the reason why they put sankoku into play.
As far as I can recall, it was because of the tozama daimyo making commerce with China and the West.
I could mention a number of other ways how your reply seems stupid to me, but this itself is enough.

If you want a source where my reasoning comes from. I recommend this:

books.google.com/books?id=A70rqmKB7ikC&dq=sakoku edicts engaging Japan&source=gbs_navlinks_s

But I'll reaffirm that Tokugawa felt insecure with his power between the Japanese armies of the Sengoku era being destroyed in Korea and the oncoming influence and possible colonization efforts by European powers.

Japan could never be colonized.
Even during the Sengoku period itself, only commerce was established.

Read:

It's not that it could or couldn't be colonized, it was the fear of colonization that was the factor.

but we have our difference, we'll agree to disagree. thanks for the discussion though.

>Japan could never be colonized
You mean "Japan was never colonized until the end of WWII, aside from the time between the arrival of Westerners in the country and the Edicts of Expulsion"

>emperor
>authority
Lovin' every laugh

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The reason Meiji era was so prosperous was because of the foundation of peace, education, and middle class mercantile growth laid down during the Edo era. The early Shogunate also actively tried to repair relations with Korea and China.

It's what happens when you let ultra-conservatives take over your government

>The reason Meiji era was so prosperous was because of the foundation of peace, education, and middle class mercantile growth laid down during the Edo era.
Is there any reason to think that this is true? Like, do you have a source?

Fuck off Hideyoshi

most of the stuff forced by Tokugawa was originally made by Hideyoshi

besides they needed the stability

During the Tokugawa period, the country's population boomed, became increasingly urban and literate, and learning and the arts flourished. It was the strong base established during the Tokugawa that allowed Japan to modernize so quickly

Why do you think it happened? Because there was not a foundation of peace, education, and middle class mercantile growth?

>the only society in Asia that didn't turn into a useless shithole by the 19th century
>the first time that Japan was able to culturally surpass China
>this is a bad thing

You can't make not presenting a source a argument when you have not presented your own

>implying edo era japan is not prosperous
>implying opening up the country wouldn't fucked them up big time like what happen to china, vietnam, thailand and basically all east asian countries

edo era is probably the most significant era in japanese history, most of what we know as "japanese" and nation-identity making of japan can be contributed to edo era

with opening up japan, japan would probably be a lot more globalised, but the scenarios wouldn't be good:

either, :
cucked by china politically and economically
political instability as people are more divided due foreign influences
or the worst possibility, cucked by european """merchants""" and """explorer"""" and become another european colony like philippines

>hurp durp Europeans couldn't have colonized Japan
Europeans colonized India, Indochina, Indonesia and cucked China.
France had to dismiss their military leader (De Genouilly) because he was literally conquering too much land and it was hurting their diplomatic image.

Upside down frowny face is sad.

Not in the 16th century they didn't

well the europeans ''merchants'' trading outpost in the 16th century is the foundation of later 17th -20th century colonialism in asia, so he's not wrong

at first they came to trade
then they support local ruler fighting against another local ruler in exchange for trading benefit or even trade monopolies
chaos ensues because of all the war enabled by european technologies and support
when central local rule crumbled, turn the merchant major trading company into full style colonialism

this could be summed up as history of most of east asia in general, with few exception such as japan

Except for the fact they got BTFO in 1850 by a couple sailors on a steamship.

Japan has been colonized for 71 years now.

This is essentially like saying Mao BTFO traditional China is the reason Commie China is semi-wealthy in 2016.

That objectively didn't happen until the Meiji reforms had taken effect.

1850 Japan was a shithole.

The Mori might have acted the same way if they became big boss, they would have been under new demands and pressures that might prompt them to strictly regulate trade to prevent clans from importing arms from foreigners, using their warships and such.

>or the worst possibility, cucked by european """merchants""" and """explorer"""" and become another european colony like philippines
The way they dealt with European merchants was pretty good. The Dutch basically turned them against the Catholics, then cozied up more by selling them guns and shit. They're "rewarded" by being stuck on a small island that they're not allowed to leave (everything came to them) and were straight up discouraged from learning Japanese so they couldn't influence the Japanese around them. A lot of "we'll deal with you on our terms" shit.

...

>the first time that Japan was able to culturally surpass China
The Tokugawa was famous for importing Neo-Confucianism. It was also called the Confucian revival in China.

The movement than enabled the Meiji restoration - the Sonno movement- was heavily based on Neo-Confucianism.

So no.

Hirohito might not have had autocratic authority, be he sure as hell had a large influence on Japanese militarism. Why do people still believe he was a weak ruler?

In present times the Japanese remember the Edo period with the kind of nostalgia by which 90s kids remember the 90s, except that in Japan the literal 90s fucking sucked.

Then Perry-san came and poor Japan lost her virginity forever.

>So closing the country off from foreign influence was seen as the best way to stave off possible influence or invasions from China or Europe
>China

The Tokugawa Shogunate actually spent time mending relations with China and Korea.

The only time Tokugawa cut off formal relations with China was after 1645: the Manchu Invasion. Because Tokugawa did not recognize the Manchus as Emperors of China and hoped Koxinga in Taiwan gets his reconquista. Though trade contacts still existed.

Instead of going into rigorous detail in answering your question, I suggest you read Embracing Defeat by John Dower.

Explains pretty much fucking everything.

Based US popping cherries and stealing bitches.

Made a harem out of all of Europe, S.America, Oceania, and parts of Asia.

The Pax Tokugawa saw a huge expansions in the economy and populations, while the halt on technological progress could be questioned, it was a period of stability and prosperity the likes of which Japan had not seen before

yeah that's why tokugawa style isolationism is a good thing, if they deal with europeans the same way other asians deal with europeans (china allowing jesuit influence in court, India divided by divide et impera english policies, or straight up deluded with european ""advisors"" like what happens to south east asian monarchs) japan wouldn't be as it is today

Maybe it was in the days of colonialism, when the British Empire overthrew entire governments and crushed rebellions in the name of "free trade". The Japanese were right not to trust the European powers (until America came along)

I didn't mention arguments, I asked for a source.
I'm not presenting an argument, I'm asking you for a source, or a reason to think that what you said is true.

Why do people who post on a history board get so upset when someone asks them for a source to back up a claim? I mean, fuck, people, have you never taken a history class?

"Revere the President, expel the Spics" doesn't quite sound as catchy though.

Just call them barbarians.

>Technologies, inventions, discoveries and new methods of production would arrive earlier on Japan, turning it into a more developed nation way before the Meiji Restauration.
And ultimately we wouldn't have moe anime
Oh we can dream

/thread

Edo period wasn't that bad, Japan had a rising literacy rate, increasing population and imported lots of science texts from the Dutch.

Japan already alienated it's neighbors, the Chinese and Koreans by trying to invade them in 1598. I highly doubt by 1600, that they would be willing to trade extensively.

The Ryukuans to the south was Japan's only conquest of the era, which is about all that Japan was capable of, after the failures of the Imjin War.