Is natural law the only alternative to might makes right? What is the most plausible foundation for natural law? Nature...

This.

>Go ahead, prove me wrong
Reality already proves you wrong. Educating the masses not to steal by illustrating them the benefits of not doing so vs the losses of committing a crime (not just fear of jail, losses also of one's standing in society, personal guilt by showing them the suffering they've caused others, loss of good relationships too) that is enough to keep a society stable. No need to tell a guy the sky daddy bullshit when you can reason with them by explaining in practical terms why they're doing a bad thing. If you can't explain in practical terms why thing X is bad, or are only basing your explanation on unsubstantial bullshit, then you are selling progress-hampering shit and can fuck off.

Of course you need an educated and intelligent population for this to work, but asians and whites have proved themselves educated and intelligent enough for that. Asians don't really believe in that religion bullshit, yet they've always managed to have an efficient, well-organized society nonetheless.

It's not a question of abandoning civilisation, it's a question of what keeps you from keeping the contract when nobody is looking. And the answer seems to be nothing, to which the solution seems to be to make sure someone is always looking. Is this desirable? It's certainly reality.

>a question of what keeps you from keeping the contract when nobody is looking

White people seem to have reason to trust each other well enough. Do you live among niggers or arabs or other non-whites?

Wanna know how I know you're a wannabe dictator that would happily slaughter innocents if he could? By your frothing anger at a philosophy that cherishes human beings, wants to protect from abuse and abusers, and thinks positively of humanity like good people do.

>loss of standing
Only applies where seen
>personal guilt
Christian habit
>explain why it is bad
Completely missing the point. Explain why I shouldn't do it.

Whites are burning the leftover fuel of Christianity and South Koreans/Japanese the leftover fuel of Confucianism and their culture.

This is what I say too. I claim that societ, without God and his leftovers needs to be 'völkisch'. I won't wrong my mother even if she never finds out, and I trust her to do the same. I also trust my cousins, my neighbors etc. Do I trust a random "fellow white person" (who, more than likely, does not think in that category)? No, it would be naive to do so.

All meaningless, which is why you have to go right to the person.

Can you stop derailing every fucking thread with this shit

>Do I trust a random "fellow white person"
>No
Spotted the SJW white genocide-proponent

This is how we can tell you never leave your room.

>Christian habit
Not really, feeling bad at causing undue suffering is an universal constant. Everyone is capable of personal guilt completely unrelated to religious teachings.
>Explain why I shouldn't do it
Because it's bad. If you can't understand why it's bad, imagine someone stealing from you, how would you like that? Let's say they steal something you don't care about, do you think that warrants you stealing something back despite you knowing that will hurt the other person? Do you not see how that would escalate into increased retaliation and suffering for both sides?

>Whites are burning the leftover fuel of Christianity
Christianity is dead in Europe already though. Don't know about the state of Confucianism in China.

>Do I trust a random "fellow white person"? No
Why not? Your fellow white citizens are good people and your fellow citizens just as much as your mother and your cousins/neighbours are. Shared common values are what makes citizens of a nation trust each other.

This is why muslims are problematic by the way, since they don't share the common values of the West and refuse to adopt them as their own. The presence of muslims in Europe will lead to inevitable balkanization if you don't force muslims to make their religion irrelevant and without power.

>meaningless
Nope. They're the principles of civilization. They may sound meaningless to you now that you're safe and enjoying the benefit of their protection. They won't be so meaningless when some dictator tries take over and your rights are at stake.

Don't respond to white-haters. The two of us trust each other, because we are superior whites. This inferior shitter will never understand our trust, our love, and our ethical nature, our spirituality and deep bond.
You are responding to a shill

I'm in the exact same boat.
Reading Mill was the craziest experience I've ever subjected myself too. He just assumes we are social beings and thus: should care about social harmony. It's so pathetic, but it's good for us. If people want to compartmentalize themselves into sheep, so I don't have to worry about them fucking me over, whatever, it makes my life easier.
Good boy
Let them be delusional user, it helps us

Not craziest *cringiest

Natural Law resting upon God as the Supreme Nature for its foundation.

You said it like an idiot, but yeah, your morals have no foundation. You have behavior, but you still don't have the calling to a higher standard of morality. What could inspire you? You like people?

>I don't have to worry about them fucking me over

Would you fuck people over if you had the opportunity to do so?

>dictator
I'm an anarchist you fucking moron.
Any ideology which is anthropocentric is morally bankrupt.
You are not 'good', you are a disgusting anthrope.

>I don't have to worry about them fucking me over, whatever, it makes my life easier.
No it doesn't. You are being fucked right now, right in the ass.

>What could inspire you? You like people?

Generally speaking? Yeah, when I see other people out doing their thing and living their lives that tends to put me in a good mood, myself. I have no reason to wish anything bad of them or do anything that disrupts their way. I find it stupid and irrational to think I shouldn't be this way just because I don't believe in the abrahamic bullshit.

You say that there is no need to appeal to God because even without appealing to God we can train people to behave morally. But even if that were true, it has no bearing on whether or not God is necessary for morality philosophically speaking. Nevertheless, you are wrong. Human "perfectibility" - the idea that men only require an education to be moral - was one of the key ideas of the Enlightenment, and it has shown to be false. Even if rulers use a Leviathan State with Mass Education to train the people like dogs to behave a certain way, it doesn't prevent the rulers themselves from being morally corrupt and passing on their corruption to the people. The fact that you mention oriental societies as ones where people are moral without God proves the point - you will find that such societies where people are "moral" by ritual and convention often have the worst moral atrocities occur in them, because people don't know how to be good when the rituals and conventions break down or are inapplicable. People ultimately need a reason to be good, and that reason ultimately can only be "God", a Supreme Standard and Arbiter of Good.

Anthropy is entropy. Humanism is a nihilism.

none of the elites honor the social contract

Ya, the Powers that B are fucking us all--no doubt, but I'm not getting fucked any harder than you, so...it is what it is.

There are a whole lot of people who feel very little guilt. Man is an intelligent creature, and left to his own devices, he can justify just about anything (to himself).

No, no I don't want someone stealing from me. That doesn't give me a reason not to steal from them. It gives me a reason not to get caught doing so, in case they believe in retaliation, or in case they're stronger, or in case I depend on my relationship with them. But so long as they don't find out and I don't suffer consequences, there's no rational reason for me not to. At that point it comes down to my whim.

People still think very christianly, despite not believing in God.
Confucianism in China is lost. In South Korea it lives on, as it doesn in Japan, just not under that name.

Where I live, middle class white kids often have terrible manners. No surprise considering which generation (didn't) raise them. These kids have little respect for others, they litter, they lie as a matter of habit, they curse wherever they can, they do illegal drugs, and plenty of them HAVE stolen at some points in their lives, even if only as a dare.
I agree with you more than it seems, especially when it comes to shared common values (and muslims/immigrants), though I believe they are inevitably weaker than religion. But these simply no longer exist. Egoism is more and more becoming the only shared value, among white people no less.

Your words are empty, they don't impress anyone who has thought about it. They work because we are raised to recognise them. We are raised this way as part of our Christian legacy. This is dying. People are waking up to the reality of the emptiness of this kind of talk. Without God, it has no foundation, and people need only realise this for it to crash.

Go on believing this, I'm sure life is nicer in the fictional community of white brotherhood. But it is fictional.

>It helps us
But see, I'm not the person that reality as I understand demands. I /want/ to live by morals and law, among others that do too, but desperate as I am, I simply cannot find any stable source for these other than God or close family/community.

I can show you many that would. Look to your government for one.

You are getting fucked way harder than me, right in your tight little arsehole. Fucking deep too. The deep state is balls deep, while they're struggling to get the tip in me.

Dude, I would like to as well, but it's just not in the cards. As you so rightly said earlier, Theism is the only possibility, and until I have a direct revelation with God, of which I can't reason out of, this is the world we live in.

How so user?
I guess I'm not going to have a tight little boipussy for long...:(

It seems we really are sitting in the same boat, huh.

You can know the existence of God by reason. Read the Greeks (for God's sake). God is not a "sky daddy", he is the Supreme Being, the Unoriginate Source of Existence.

Greatest of the gods, God with many names, God ever-ruling, and ruling all things!
Zeus, origin of Nature, governing the universe by law,
All hail! For it is right for mortals to address thee;
For we are thy offspring, and we alone of all
That live and creep on earth have the power of imitative speech.
Therefore will I praise thee, and hymn forever thy power.
Thee the wide heaven, which surrounds the earth, obeys:
Following where thou wilt, willingly obeying thy law.
Thou holdest at thy service, in thy mighty hands,
The two-edged, flaming, immortal thunderbolt,
Before whose flash all nature trembles.
Thou rulest in the common reason, which goes through all,
And appears mingled in all things, great or small,
Which filling all nature, is king of all existences.
Nor without thee, Oh Deity, * does anything happen in the world,
From the divine ethereal pole to the great ocean,
Except only the evil preferred by the senseless wicked.
But thou also art able to bring to order that which is chaotic,
Giving form to what is formless, and making the discordant friendly;
So reducing all variety to unity, and even making good out of evil.
Thus throughout nature is one great law
Which only the wicked seek to disobey,
Poor fools! who long for happiness,
But will not see nor hear the divine commands.
[In frenzy blind they stray away from good,
By thirst of glory tempted, or sordid avarice,
Or pleasures sensual and joys that fall.]
But do thou, Oh Zeus, all-bestower, cloud-compeller!
Ruler of thunder! guard men from sad error.
Father! dispel the clouds of the soul, and let us follow
The laws of thy great and just reign!
That we may be honored, let us honor thee again,
Chanting thy great deeds, as is proper for mortals,
For nothing can be better for gods or men
Than to adore with hymns the Universal King.

I would give you my email, but would try to fuck my shit up. Good luck user

Yeah well like I said you have behavior, the extent to which you have morality is what you developed by living in a society. A society just now washing itself of "abrahamic bullshit".
You just described your moral foundation as benevolence by the way, which is fitting to a "secular humanist".

Are you white?

>Nevertheless, you are wrong
Reality shows I'm right though. You see far less crime and war today in irreligious society than there was before during religious society, since religion allowed people to usurp others unjustly. Religious societies allow people to be murder and discriminated for not believing, despite having done no wrong at all. Rulers in irreligious societies are held accountable for what they do, can be called out and brought down. Whereas rulers in religious societies use religion as an excuse to cling to their power, perverting even good principles into abuse of power and oppression of the populace.

>you will find that such societies where people are "moral" by ritual and convention often have the worst moral atrocities occur in them

Such as? The only moral atrocities that have been committed so far have been committed by religious people. See: muslims.

>because people don't know how to be good when the rituals and conventions break down or are inapplicable

Because people shouldn't be taught to be good out if ritual and convention, they should be taught to be good out of reason and logic, which are always applicable. Those who are good only out of ritual and convention are religious people and they are the ones to break down, see: muslims in the West. They have always been taught to act like sheep and not question their superstition, they have never been taught to reason with their own mind, and that's why they can't function in civil society. Letting them persist in their delusion is what is wrong here.

Wait, I but thought he was a fellow white?

Attached: 1503088850983.jpg (559x1024, 505K)

Italian, Spanish, French amerimut. You?

Sorry, I have no interest in having further talks with mutts.

>You can know the existence of God by reason
You know, Catholics will tell me the same. Even some Muslims. And Neo-Pagans. And Deists.
I hope you can see what I'm getting at.
Without revelation, it is of little use.

Ayy, I'm a Swiss-French mutt. Maybe this is why I don't get your white-ethics.

Swiss-French=white user

I don't know how you could just bullshit so much and not feel embarrassed.

imagine being this much of a fucking faggot because of 1930’s propaganda. go back even 20-30 years before that and people would laugh you out of a tavern for talking about white brotherhood and go another 20 years forward and you’d get the same thing. what a disgusting mutation of “””””culture”””

>You know, Catholics will tell me the same. Even some Muslims. And Neo-Pagans. And Deists.
>I hope you can see what I'm getting at.
I don't see what you're getting at. Just because these different groups disagree on the nature of God or on God's commands does not make it irrelevant that they all agree that there is a God who can be known.
>Without revelation, it is of little use.
It's not useless to have a philosophical theism to provide intellectual foundation to whatever religious organisation you do belong to.

I'm not even a white supremacist or nationalist, lol. I was just merely pointing out that swiss-french=white. I can sympathize with Spencers crew, but ultimately, I don't really care much about race. The only thing that does concern me is becoming a minority in my own country, and having laws that aren't made in my interest, but since politics is a rich man's game, I largely ignore it. Currently saving money, so I can move wherever I need to when shit gets bad

>There are a whole lot of people who feel very little guilt
Psychopaths are neurotically different from healthy normal persons. With the advancement of science, that can be surgically corrected I guess.

>No, no I don't want someone stealing from me. That doesn't give me a reason not to steal from them
Yes it does, since wanting to something you know is bad and wouldn't want be done to yourself makes you a hypocrite. Good, normal people aren't hypocrites. You will be find out; your body language and behavior changes when you lie and people can spot it. That's how investigative forces work.

>People still think very christianly
I don't think so. A christian would be eager to torture and murder someone who doesn't care about christianity.

>Where I live, middle class white kids often have terrible manners
Where I live they don't. I wonder if your experience is tainted by your views.

>Egoism
Elaborate. I find it when user laments about "egoism", user is really lamenting about people living normally while projecting his own faults on them.

>We are raised this way as part of our Christian legacy
Nope, we are raised this way thanks to our Enlightenment and philosophical legacy. If we were raised on a christian legacy, we would be murdering and oppressing people for thoughtcrime. The Enlightenment and philosophy are not dying since they are a logical, rational thought exercise rather than empty belief in something that has zero proof of existence.

>People are waking up to the reality of the emptiness of this kind of talk
The West is becoming less religious.

>Without God, it has no foundation
I can live well without god, I don't see why others can't do too. If you need to cling to a superstition not to kill me, you are a dangerous unstable element akin to a muslim terrorist and you don't belong in society.

Can you refute anything I said?

I agree with everything you said, and so I'll be more specific: It is of little use to /me/.
Would you mind explaining what your beliefs are and how you came to them?

See, I get all this. But this is highly delusional.

ah then ignore, i agree with most of those sentiments just not dorky IMPERIVM genocidal white supremacist utopian shit, immigration needs to slow down to a near halt and the white guilt shit needs to fucking stop
Enlightenment thought is dying, we’re in an irrational age of agora, doxa and eros

Why shouldn't I be a hypocrite?
>good normal
Stirner.jpg

>A christian would be eager to torture etc. etc.
Fedora.jpg

But I can see you've not understood what I'm getting at, so there is no point.

>does not make it irrelevant that they all agree
Just because a bunch of people agree on something doesn't mean what they agree on has any factual basis in reality. That's not how the scientific process works. A bunch of people can all be wrong, see: christians who threatened Galileo's life and liberty for pointing their book says a bunch of bullshit.

>Fedorafags STILL peddling this myth
This is why I hesitate to admit I am an atheist.

Send a mail to [email protected] if you're interested.

>Why shouldn't I be a hypocrite?
Do you think being a hypocrite is good? Would you like to live among hypocrites acting like hypocrites toward you?

>Enlightenment thought is dying
People don't place enough emphasis on logic and reason, yeah. But that can be always amended.

>Fedora.jpg
Read up on christian history. Until the Enlightenment christians acted exactly like muslims today, people accused of heresy got murdered, tortured and had their lives made impossible just like people today in theocracies like Iran or Saudi Arabia. That's what religious thought leads to.

No, ideally I would be the only hypocrit.

Give me examples of leaders in the USSR ever being held accountable, also WW2 was filled with a lot of non-religious atrocities, far more than religious motives would be capable of causing.
I know you're talking about medieval Europe when talking about "religious societies", but the systems of authority are far more complex than you're putting them, because of the fucking feudal system.

I agree with you that morality is based in reason. And that's why the infection of ideologies in secular societies is far more dangerous than the Christian influence that came before. If you disagree then look at World War 2 again.

>history is myth
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Controversy_over_heliocentrism

>ideally I would be the only hypocrit
Why? What makes you think that you would be the only one since you refuse to reason and let people reason with others?

I hope that's a burner, for your sake.
If you are this guy, then I will when I get home in a couple hours user.

It is, rest assured.

Okay, so I won't just act like a good person but will actually be one. How do I know everyone else is too?

>Give me examples of leaders in the USSR ever being held accountable
Beria was executed and held accountable for his crimes as soon as Kruschnev had the possibility to. Ceaucescu was executed by the people.

>WW2 was filled with a lot of non-religious atrocities
Hitler was a christian and his christianity motivated the whole fucking holocaust. Have some Hitler quotes on christianity:

>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

>"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

He sounds like a muslim terrorist. "Far more than religious motives would be capable of causing" my ass. WW2 is the perfect example of the dangerous infection of christian ideologies in secular societies.

>muh stem
Fuck off, sperglord
You are extremely superstitious. That's why you're a humanist.

>Hitler was a christian and his christianity motivated the whole fucking holocaust
False. Go back to plebbit.

consciousness unironically

Consciousness doesn't exist, silly humanist.

>False

>"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

>We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

>The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.

>We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

You wanna refute Hitler's own words?

By the way: replace "God" with "Allah" and "Christianity" with "Islam" and you get ISIS speeches.

>somebody says something so its true
Go back to plebbit you fucking moron.
I bet you think the 'founding fathers' were Christian too. Holy fuck you are just unbelievably stupid. Typical impotent little centrist.

Here's my own words: I literally FUCKED your mom. wanna refute my own words? haha kid when somebody says something its obviously becomes a platonic form and thats why people exist because its too crowded in play-doh land

Consciousness as in the neurological thought process exists. God doesn't.

>neurological
fuck off, STEMsperg

Talking with them as equals would be a start.

it is by definition nearly 1:1 correlated with neural activity and if it wasn’t then dualist belief would not even make sense

Dualism is invalid.
Neurology doesn't exist. Fuck off, Platonist.

How do I know they are taking me as equals?

Spooky shit man

muh equilz
Humanism is a cancer

It's one of the things you literally learn by interacting with your peers as a child and by being a person that interacts with people in society. It's not a single action; it's a sum of actions and behaviors. You need to have a healthy interaction with society to understand them though. People who have such interaction have no problem with them.

>people who benefit from the status quo will support it
Get over it liberal, Hillary lost. Now get lost.
>interaction only happens in society
top ideology

>I bet you think the 'founding fathers' were Christian too
Nah, they weren't.

>somebody says something so its true
When someone declares himself part of an ideological movement, fits his actions into the ideology of the movement and brings up the history of said movement to justify his actions, that makes me part of your movement. How is Hitler not a christian? He believes in Christ and applies the teachings of the church and the bible.

>people who benefit
Autism is a defect, people don't benefit from being neurotypical as if that's a privilege, it's autism that is an unbeneficial divergence.

>interaction only happens in society
Well yeah. You need someone else to interact with.

*distributes copies of Stirner to your teenagers*
nothin personell, heh....

>Nah, they weren't.
Neither was hitler
>When someone declares himself part of an ideological movement, fits his actions into the ideology of the movement and brings up the history of said movement to justify his actions, that makes me part of your movement.
Absolutely delusional.
>How is Hitler not a christian? He believes in Christ and applies the teachings of the church and the bible.
Oh, you're just a troll. Please blow your brains out.

like um... the kurdish genocide that ddin't happen but totally should have is why I refuse to eat turkey and want to re-create the Ottoman empire. I'm 100% a turkish nationalist. I said it, so you can't refute my words. heh, KID, it's time for justice AND development! *tips fez*

The argument here is pretty pointless since the christfag is arguing that morality needs an ultimate justification in the strong epistemic sense, via discovering the source of morality. The Enlightenment meme guy however is speaking from a position of pragmatism, and doesn't see the above endeavour as relevant for social practice and functional collaboration in a modern society. Perhaps you could switch the discussion towards a more foundational opic, like the definition of moral behavior itself.

people who don't see you as an equal talk down to you constantly and you don't realize it, assuming most normal people have good reading skills is asinine

>neither was hitler
Except the founding fathers declared themselves not christian, while hitler declared himself a christian. He was even approved by the catholic church for his actions against atheists. You telling me the Pope is not christian too?

Anything is better than soyboy moral nihilism

He also called for Catholics to be killed but I guess he was also a Catholic ok justice and development not jewstice and kurdvelopment nobody has ever lied about their beliefs ever