Who are some twentieth century swordsmen with actual duels or battles under their belt? I know of one or two. I'm sure there are more examples from around the world, be great if some more people know of examples
Kunii Zenya in 1910 found several men stealing from his farm at night. two had swords with them and attacked him. the first swung at him over head and was cut down by a technique called ichi-no-tachi The second thief tried to smack down a strike to the side of the head, and kunii changed targets and cut across his chest.
In addition he took challenger with wooden weapons throughout his live and reportedly went undefeated.
He fought hand to hand with his sword (and got a confirmed kill with his bow as well).
He was like a larper who took it a bit far.
Not sure if the Germans fought back with sword, but Churchill is said to have killed people with his.
Kayden Martin
Take a look at this list of videos, there are some recordings of actual epee duels from the early 20th century: youtube.com/user/schlager7/videos
Brandon Bennett
I heard that such videos existed but I had never been able to find them.
Thanks
John Long
finally had a chance to look at the epee duels. They seem far more aggressive than modern epee fencing but other than that not a great deal different, though their swords seem stiffer and perhaps heavier.
That said the duels were somewhat underwhelming. they fenced for a few moments then someone ended up with a bad cut on their sword arm. I doubt an encounter between men armed with sabers or rapiers would have been so forgiving.
At the very least its interesting that this has been preserved so modern epee fencers can see at a glance how close they are to their roots
Adam Ramirez
Two (in)famous members of the IJA, Takayama Masayoshi fought in Manchuria and China in the 1930's multiple times, and developed his swordsmanship in extremely practical situations (Chinese troops had re-introduced swords in service, especially the massive dadao).
Nakamura Taisaburo also fought in China during the war, and then lead to create is own school, Nakamura-ryu, inspired by the Toyama-ryu, which was itself inspired by the sword teachings of the Toyama Military Academy during the Interwar. His knowledge of fighting swords against bayonet and swords was also first-hand. youtube.com/watch?v=ciC4l_Og_o0
Jordan Campbell
Me on the right, just tucked a bloke in innit
Hunter Ward
Christ, that's some sexy gear
Dominic Barnes
Better than this one for sure.
Daniel Fisher
>I doubt an encounter between men armed with sabers or rapiers would have been so forgiving. You're actually mistaken. Smallswords and their descendants turned out a lot deadlier than sabres or rapiers.
First it should be considered that most duels were fought until first blood rather than death. In that regard it was not the goal of people to kill each other. And it turned out that not-killing people is a lot harder with a shorter, more agile weapon. This is specifically mentioned by German University students in the 18th century. University students in Europe were often granted the privilege of carrying arms since they had to travel from their home towns carrying the money to pay their tuition fees which made them popular targets for bandits. Obviously they didn't just use them for defence, but also a thriving duelling culture emerged from this. When small-swords were introduced in the 18th century - namely a weapon called the "Parisien", which had a triangular edge and a flat hand-guard, it was mentioned that it was too dangerous for duelling, since people accidentally thrust it between the ribs of their opponent, perforating the lungs - for which they had a term ("Lungenfuchser"), which was an injury that often ended up deadly at the time. Due to this the weapon was banned in many cities.
While a sabre leaves horribly disfiguring cuts, the injury itself is often superficial and relatively easy to stitch up and thus people are capable of surviving them reasonably well - especially in a duelling environment where the blades are disinfected. A rapier, while similar to a smallsword, was a longer and heavier weapon that wasn't used in a comparably close and personal manner. Due to the nature of the weapon itself, people would keep more of a distance from another and not lunge in as carelessly, making the fight more tactical and controlled.
Justin Carter
to think a washing pole like that would save you... *dramatically baka*
weaklings like should be eradicated... prepare to die. *slices u in halF*
Takayama was considered a war criminal, However Ive never heard anything bad about Nakamura's character, except for the fact he was friends with war criminals.
But the sword culture in the Japanese army is very interesting. They found kendo lacking for the purposes of military sword work so they went back to older styles to create a new system for officers. Its often said that Nakayama Hakudo, the "God of kendo" and leader of the iaido movement helped set the curriculum.
Lincoln Hall
There was apparently clashes between Kukri-wielding Gurkhas and Nips armed with katanas in Burma. The Japs got pwned badly.
Julian Barnes
...
Easton Price
Ive heard there is an account of one or two guys.
Matthew White
>>He was like a larper who took it a bit far.
In my opinion he was a very smart man, him carrying a bow/longsword worked as a in 3 ways
1. he was probably a major distraction to the enemy 2. it works on a passive aggressive level, what sort of man would want to shoot someone whos running around a battlefield with a longbow and a broadsword in an era dominated by gunpowder weapons? The krauts weren't monsters, a lot of them had a sense of honor and respect for their enemies. 3. To inspire his men
Proof of this is how well he was treated when captured. It was a calculated mind game that played on his enemies sense of fairness/guilt.
Christopher Johnson
Interesting. In other words injuries like what is in the video seem pretty common for Europe.
I havent seen any studies like this on Japanese duels but from what I know they either used wooden or real weapons, and duels involving real blades typically had very bloody results, not that cuts were not survivable but at the very least the blade tended to leave nasty wounds.
I guess i just assumed duels with a saber would be similar
Noah Morris
>The last official duel in the history of France happened between Gaston Defferre and René Ribière, both delegates at the French National Assembly. During an argument in the assembly room, Defferre said to Ribière "shut up, idiot" ("taisez-vous, abruti"). Defferre won the duel after four minutes of sword fighting, wounding his opponent twice
James Clark
Oh, this took place in 1967 by the way, forgot to mention that.
Jeremiah Perry
>Interesting. In other words injuries like what is in the video seem pretty common for Europe. Yes, very much so.
>I guess i just assumed duels with a saber would be similar Duelling sabres were usually different from military sabres. They were lighter and closer to the modern fencing weapon than the Napoleonic cavalry weapon. Still, these were dangerous weapons that could sever arteries and leave large scars, although not as heavy in the cut as the aforementioned weapons of war or the Japanese sword. On the other hand, due to their lightness and being not as curved, they were more dangerous thrusting weapons. However, you probably wouldn't see severed limbs or split heads as the result - which in most cases was not the intention of the combatants either.
Leo Thompson
>Ive never heard anything bad about Nakamura's character, except for the fact he was friends with war criminals. For some, knowing war criminals is enough to be deemed a bad guy, but let's face it, Nakamura was an officer in the IJA, he probably knew a handful of war criminals simply by being in the army, this fact says nothing about him personally or his style.
Nakayama Hakudo was an adviser for the Toyama military academy, so he most certainly contributed for the shin-gunto curriculum, even though it was revised a couple of times, by said Nakamura for instance. One of the interesting thing in the same vein is the Keishisho ryu Kitachi kata, a set of 10 katas for the Tokyo Met. Police coming from 10 different koryu and giving a peek at the "most representative" kata of each ryuha. It was done in the late 19th century (1880's iirc) and there's also 5 iai kata, and some jujutsu and arresting techniques from some other koryu, but those got lost along the way...
I would assume duels in Japan were more to the bitter end, the sword culture certainly tends towards this anyway. The value of "honor" is as highly regarded and praised as in France in that regard, and it can lead to needless bloody fights.
Evan Richardson
Oh and a nice video of Nakamura with some cringey commentary and title, so turn the volume off I suppose... youtube.com/watch?v=23_Ry8-uoiQ
Adrian Stewart
You know I only ever see videos of his tamashiigiri, never his solo or paired curriculum. I actually have a copy of his book that describes his curriculum in some detail.
While some of his associates may have been questionable, I do respect that despite his background he willingly taught so many westerners, at a time that was not as common.
His opinions on swordsmanship however were very controversial, as he was very critical of both koryu and many modern styles
Nicholas Fisher
Anyone know much about General Patton as a swordsman?
I know he designed a sword and a manual, and that he was a respected fencer, but little else besides what I can remember from some old forum threads about it.
Aaron Wilson
There isn't that much that isn't easily accessible. He was in the 1912 Olympics, pentathlon, did pretty good in fencing apparently, finished fifth were the swedish got like all the other top 10 places.
His training seems to have been a standard officer's one, but then he went to France and this is were he started seriously, being exposed to world-class fencers.
Frankly, his manual is extremely minimal and isn't really a fencing manual. It's mostly exercises, it's only about usage of the weapon on horse, there are no defensive techniques taught or recommended, the manual is about giving point and using the horse and that's all. He said that no defense should be considered, you run the guy through and get out quickly on horse before the rest can do anything, nothing wrong with this, but then again it's minimal. The method of point cavalry looks very much like what the british and french were doing, he was more a cut&thrust guy before being exposed to the french, afterwars it was pretty much point only. His sabre is pretty much a copy of the 1908-1912 british cavalry sabre, slightly different specs maybe, but the general blade and guard forms are the same, so nothing exactly original there either.
He seems to be the fencing officers that brought what was thought about and done in France and England in the US, and that's pretty much about it really. Nothing shameful, nothing grand.
Kevin Watson
Negishi Shingoro was a proeminent member of the Shindo Munen-ryu. He participated in several battles of the Boshin War until he was seriously wounded in 1868. Later on, he became soke of the Shindo Munen-ryu. He participated in the kenjutsu curriculum of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police, became Hanshi of the Dai Nippon Butokukai and worked on the creation of a unified set of kata for said group. He was at the end of his life, in the comittee formed to create the kendo kata. He also taught and was succeeded as soke by Nakayama Hakudo, another important figure of kenjutsu and kendo of the early 20th century, who went on to be critical in the development of Kendo, Iaido and the instruction of officers during the Interwar.
Negishi Shingoro is the guy on the front right with the nice forked white beard.
Liam James
Not real sword fighting per say but military kendo and jukenjutsu (bayonet)
