No Mary, No Jesus

Why? Because "hur dur muh innovations!"? Reminder that the Nicene Creed was an "innovation" when it was first written.

At least we both agree she's the Theotokos, the Mother of God. Too many Prots whine about how that's apparently wrong because "God's eternal and Mary didn't give birth to the Trinity bringing it into existence! She is the Mother of Jesus, who is God, but she's not the Mother of God!"

Talk about Prautism, right?

Can't tell if tasteless and blasphemy against the Ark of the New Covenant, or profound in some way.

Going with the first to be on the safe side.

Who gave birth to Christ?

>Reminder that the Nicene Creed was an "innovation"
No, it wasn't. It was a witness to dogma that was always there.

Protestants are Nestorian, of course, which is also a heresy.

The Theotokos.

Yeah, Mary. So telling her off and giving her the boot is kinda cuntish, don't you agree?

Who existed first? Jesus or Mary?

I think Protestants who don't acknowledge she is the Mother of God are heretics, if that is what you are asking. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, the Queen of Heaven, and to be venerated above the rest of creation.

Mary, then Jesus.

Show me in the bible where Mary is the Mother of God.

The Logos. Which wasn't become Jesus yet. The Logos was not become Jesus until after Mary's existence. She is the Mother of the flesh of the Logos (Luke 1:43), which IS the Logos (John 1:14), which IS God (John 1:1).

I hope that one day you repent, and are saved.

...

You are also a polytheist.

I said show me "Mother of God" in the bible.

I'll wait.

>I think Protestants who don't acknowledge she is the Mother of God are heretics, if that is what you are asking. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, the Queen of Heaven, and to be venerated above the rest of creation.

HOLY

FUCK

Don't act like a retard, if we're going into it thinking that Jesus, the son of God, came before Mary, the woman who got knocked up with God, then it's silly.

Jesus created the universe.

Did Jesus create the universe before Mary was born?

God created the universe.
Jesus is still the son of God, an aspect of God.

Then you're also a polytheist.

Jesus is God.

"Queen" seldom indicates joint rulership in Biblical parlance, it's a title for the mother of the king (rather than his wife, as the king generally had several). It has nothing to do with joint-rulership in this context..Mary is the Throne of God, but not a joint-ruler

>polytheist
You're a retard, are you also against the Trinity?

I'm starting to see why people have absolutely no regard for what you say here.

Here's the Queen of Heaven in the bible:

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

Does that sound like something God loves?

The Queen of Heaven is only one person: Semiramis of Babylon, wife of Nimrod the tower builder, and mother of Tammuz.

You are so lost, and yet you don't have any concept of what lost is.

You are if you think God created the universe before Jesus was born.

The Theotokos is not a part of the Trinity, she is a part of creation. She is above the *rest* of creation, but not above creation itself.

Well Jesus, son of God, was born on Earth.
And that is why people respect her, because she was in the creation.

And yet the Prautist still shouts "MUH SEMINARIS WHORE OF ABALONE EUCHARIST IS A BABYLONIAN WORD MEANING CAKE OFFERED TO THE PAGAN QUEEN OF HEQVEN!!!!!!!!!" like complete idiots.

Honestly, Sola Scriptura is just something you come to when you suck ass at Biblical exegesis. "If it's not blatantly and obviously stated in the Bible it's wrong." That's why you get Neo-Arians like the JWs denying the divinity of Jesus and considering blood transfusions to be a violation of Jewish ceremonial laws concerning blood.

No, no she is not. She is not above any of the elders; she is not above any of the apostles.

She is blessed among WOMEN for she was chosen to bear the Messiah, a thing all Jewish girls wanted to do, and Mary did.

Your Mother Earth cult is sickening.

The Queen of Heaven is from Psalms 45:9 and Revelations 11:19-12:1

What you're saying is as tenuous as saying worshiping the Lord is pagan (since Baal means "Lord"), or worshiping God is pagan (since Baal is a god).

Jesus, God, came down from heaven in the flesh.

If you do not know that, you are powered by the spirit of Antichrist, not of Jesus Christ.

JW have literally changed their bible so that Michael the Archangel is Jesus.

No, he was born on Earth as the lamb of God to die for us sinners.

Imagine bringing the actual Miriam/Yeshua into the modern age and having them see all the crazy elaborate theology that has sprung up around them.

Fucking retarded. You're just fucking retarded. That's all I can say.

Psalm 45
New King James Version (NKJV)

The Glories of the Messiah and His Bride

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[h] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

>The ark is the real ark; the one Moses built was a copy.

The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon
12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

THE WOMAN IS ISRAEL, NOT MARY.

>New
>King
>James
>Version
user no.

Call me back when flesh of the Apostles or the elders is sacred enough to carry God and mold him out of.

No, no He was not. He came down from heaven to be the Lamb of God, to die for all of us.

John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Philippians 2
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

>THE WOMAN IS ISRAEL, NOT MARY.
Literally what Jews say about all Messiah talked about in Isaiah, "It's Israel, not Jesus."And their case has more substance than yours.

If you consider The Holy Spirit to be God, everyone's flesh is holy enough to carry it. Hell, Catholics and Orthodox think they literally eat God all the time. Mary's special, sure, but not that special.

NKJV Yes. KVJ Yes.

You'll never meet any of them. You're going to where everyone who worships Mother Earth goes.

Sin nature is passed down by FATHERS, not mothers, and Jesus' Father is sinless.

Your idolatry is nauseating.

And Mary communed with Christ before anyone else did, physically. Communion is sacred, but it's not about made of your own flesh. Christ was made from Mary's flesh.

Orthodox don't subscribe to original sin doctrine of passing on sin through seed.

Jews are right and wrong about many things; that is not my concern.

The woman revealed in Revelation is Israel; the 12 stars are the same 12 stars that were in Joseph's dream. Her circumstances of hiding for 42 months is what Israel will do during the Troubles of Jacob, not what Mary did. The earth will open up and destroy the beast's armies, nothing like that happened in Jesus' time.

The woman is ISRAEL.

>not about made of your own flesh.
So Mary ranks slightly above wheat on the sacredness scale?

Doesn't matter. And if you're a rep for Orthodoxy, you're the most papist Orthodox I've ever seen.

The muslims think the holy Trinity is Father, Son and Mary.

I'm starting to think that the Orthodox do too

>The Queen of Heaven is only one person: Semiramis of Babylon, wife of Nimrod the tower builder, and mother of Tammuz.
>I can drop names guys!
Seminaris was the legendary wife of the Assyrian King Ninus, and also eventual queen of Assyria. She wasn't to sky goddess anymore than Helen of Troy was a war goddess.

Tammuz's mother didn't have the title "Queen of Heaven. Rather, it was the title of his Consort in Sumerian mythology, Ianna, who was a Sky Goddess (Heaven/Sky are pretty interchagable to the ancients), plus Tammuz was only ever mentioned by Ezekiel ONCE.

Nimrod was the founder of Ninevah, not Assyria. Thus claiming Ninus is Nimrod is as retarded as claiming George Washington founded Canada.

>Reminder that pic related is fanfic-levels of historically credible and only idiots take it seriously.

>God
>descending
Heretic.
>Orthodox don't subscribe to original sin doctrine of passing on sin through seed.
You know why the doctrine is there, correct?

She's the Theotokos, she went to Egypt to hide from Satan's efforts to destroy Christ.

Please explain how Israel is the Ark of the New Covenant.

How so?

>You know why the doctrine is there, correct?
Because Saint Augustine seldom read the Greek Fathers, because he disliked reading Greek.

So that makes any of his doctrine less true because he doesn't wanna read Greek?

His doctrine is less true because he derived it from a poor, pre-Vulgate translation of the Bible, and he would know it was faulty if he read the Fathers

That's asinine and you know it.

Yes, I do.

So why are you being an ass?

Literal heresy.

You're getting Jesus and the Word mixed up. The Word was around since the beginning, but Jesus didn't exist until the Word became flesh.

Jesus is the Word and always existed.

You should read the book, instead of posting an image of it.

The names of pagan gods are the most changeable things in the universe.

Jesus is the product of the hypostatic union.

Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

I mean how the doctrine became authoritative. Saint Augustine can't be faulted, since he would absolutely correct it if he talked to other Church Fathers (he'd surely also correct his Nestorian doctrine). The RCC, however, has no such excuse.

The woman is Israel.

The ark of the covenant was always in heaven; the one Moses built was a copy.

Hebrews 8
For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1

I'm not getting anything mixed up.

Nor do you. You believe the same blasphemies and abominations that they do; you just have more popes.

The Ark of the Old Covenant doesn't exist in heaven, since the Old Covenant is defunct.

What excuse, it works. It literally just works.

No bishop has the power to infallibly declare dogma, nor is any bishop referred to as a pontiff, nor is any bishop considered to be emperor of the planet.

No it doesn't, or else clones would be excepted.

So there is no Just War? So the doctrine is full of shit? No, fuck that.

>The names of pagan gods are the most changeable things in the universe.
So Helios and Amaterasu are the same thing then?

Also, Protestantism is an offshoot of Catholicism. If Catholicism is Babylonian paganism, so is Protestantism and offshoot of Babylonian paganism.

Causality bitch.

The Word is a little different from Jesus though. Jesus is a combination of man and God. The Word is solely God.

The author of Hebrews says that it does.

Your church and their church are almost literally the same. And 95%+ of the lot of you are damned.

There is no such thing as Protestantism; it happened 500 years ago.

There have been Christians since 32 AD.

There have been Catholics since 325 AD.

There is very little if any overlap.

See Jeremiah 3:16. The Ark of the Old Covenant is defunct.

Hebrews says the tabernacle is the earthly model of heaven, which it still is. That's why Orthodox Churches have a dome overhead with Christ in it, and icons of angels everywhere.

Tell me when Protestant tabernacles use incense like in heaven (Revelations 8:4). We still do.

Yeah
orthodoxwiki.org/Just_war

But that is justified by Augustine, are you saying you're a hypocrite?

No, we're not 95% the same, in either dogma or worship. Vatican II will show you that.

Catholics do not conceive of dogma like we do, they see dogma as supposedly unchanging, but the understanding of it changing with the current year (and getting progressively better). The Orthodox believe the understanding of dogma is part of dogma itself, and is not to be changed, being transmitted directly by Christ.

The letters of Saint Ignatius of Antioch will show you what the early Church looked like:
ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/IGNATIUS.HTM

Did you even read the article?

>implying
The dogma is justified, etc etc.

It doesn't justify it, says "just war theory" is not part of Orthodox dogma. Killing is always a sin, even in war, and always require repentance and confession. Killing is ALWAYS a sin, full stop, it doesn't matter the conditions.

Killing isn't a sin if it's justified.

>Killing is always a sin

Question: why don't you hold something of an anarcho-pacifist position ala Tolstoy then?

>le utilitarianism

Because I care about the lives of the innocent when they need to be defended.

>It's wrong to protect yourself
>It's immoral to protect your state
>It's immoral to protect God
Disgusting.

>Because I care about the lives of the innocent when they need to be defended.

So, you're willing to sin then? Isn't that against your beliefs? I thought the aim was to try to not sin.

Whether you think it is any of those is beside the point: it is still a sin. That is why David was not allowed to build God's temple, because all the people he killed in war.

You have a juridical conception of sin in the West, we don't. We view sin as that which impairs someone's spirituality, and killing always does that, even if you say it is for a greater cause, it still will impair you spiritually, and that is what sin is.

>You have a juridical conception of sin in the West, we don't.
What country to do you live in?

The real ark is in heaven.

The one on earth is a copy.

Neither is MARY, as you stated.

Our prayers to God are the incense being burned; your prayers to Mary, and your lighting of incense in your dens of depravity, go nowhere.

You are not a Christian.

You may as well be a papist.