History of Albania

>some men in the neolithic replaced the old I2a faggots and started to mate with the remaining women.

You don't understand, the genes would've diffused in 8,000 years necessarily. It doesn't mater what happened initially.

t. s*rb

You'd be surprised then how stable population remains thousands of years, particulary in insolated mountain communities just like in Albania.
Prolly you think all spaniards are just moors, italians arabs and russians mongols

Maybe Albania remained so isolated, even up until world war 2 was that it had pretty much nothing of value, its people were shunned Muslims, totally irrelevant on the world stage and it was basically just the playground for Hoxha and his gremlins after the Soviets and Tito just turned Albania communism via osmosis

I don't like or dislike people based on nationality, that's immature.

>The people living there have always been there according to DNA analysis

Let's assume that for a moment. Let's say that prior 500AD, all ancestors of Albanians were a small population within modern day Albania. Then some events occur, the population grows, and grows and grows yet again, and becomes the Albanians of today. So far so good, could be argued with our current understanding of genetics. But here's the catch:

Why do they have a different language then? You see, if they in fact were from the Balkans, they would speak Greek, or Latin. OR there would've existed much more Albanians before 500AD, but what happened to them?

>You'd be surprised then how stable population remains thousands of years

Not for 8,000 years my friend. Besides, if they all lived in isolation, they could've impossibly been part of the Illyrian culture and language.

>Got cool af dude get kidnapped by mudslime pedo empire
>forced to convert to islam, janisar shit
>go home, do some badass balls to the wall shit
>convert back to catholicism
>Speed forward into the future Albania give him hero statues and betrays him by being mudslime clay

>Talking shit on Hoxha
Get the fuck out you revisionist bastard.

I bet you're a Yugoslav too.

lmao

ahgahgha

No idea if they are Illyrian or not but the Balkan region was home to many different languages and Albanian is descended from one. So yeah no real mystery there.

[citation needed]

I am a sicilian of distant Albanese origin because some of them fleed as refugees the Ottoman Invasion and settled in Sicily and southern Italy.
I think your studies on dna and haplogroups arevery interesting, but to me the Mediterranean basin shares cultures, genetics and history, so I can't understand why you obsess over racial origins.
but maybe I am a bit retarded so I can't see the reason

serb animals should stay in the zoo

Says the turkroach. Your shitty nation is a boil upon humanity's collective asscheeks.

A tiny quarter of me should stay in the zoo. I just hope I dont get a cage next to your kind

>says the turk

Albanians got you fucked?
The basques got me fucked

...

Got shrekt by poles.

>what are you now
>closet isis supporters
>not even isis likes turkey
>roach

Albanians were good until they accepted Islam.

Any sources on that?

1) Albania of the Caucuses and Albania of the Balkans are not related
2) There are no Byzantine/Roman records that describe their migration or resettlement
3) Albanian's earliest loan words are Doric Greek (or possibly a relative, like Epirot, NW Greek, or Macedonian)
4) Most Albanian loan words are from Classical and Vulgar Latin
6) By the time Albanian is attested (900-1000 AD) Latin, even Vulgar Latin, was largely extinct and Doric Greek and associated dialects definitely had been for hundreds of years.
6) Genetic similarities between Albanians and Greeks suggest that Albanians are native to the Balkans
7) Nobody actually thinks Albanians are Illyrians. It's nationalistic propaganda spread by Albanians.
8) Just like the Kartvelian languages in the Caucuses, Albanian demonstrates that mountains make great insulators.

>le albania muslim meme

Only like 40% of them are muslim and even then they're the most nominal muslims ever

Then what is their excuse for being complete human waste?

they're balkanites

>believing this

english.albeu.com/news/news/kosovo-and-albania-among-countries-with-more-fighters-in-isis/202887/

>In the report, it appears that Albania ranks 9th among 26 countries who turn out to have fighters in ISIS. In this report Albania passes places like Morocco, Turkey or Kuwait.

>For Kosovo the situation is worse. The country is ranked fourth in the world in terms of fighters in ISIS in relation to its population, with about 232 fighters.

"nominal" Muslims

Different Balkanic tribes coming together under the pressure of Slavic migrations: The people

This. Read a report by an Austrian linguist that tied Albanian to Illyrian with heavy Thacian influence, and further yet, Albanian with Pelasgian.

Albanians are native to the region. Many people ITT probably just stigmatise them on the basis that they are officially Muslims.

are you picturing Albania as some mini-afghanistan with everyone living in tents and wearing burqas because if you are you're going to be disappointed. Most are what you'd call ''cultural'' non-denominational muslims.

Like they weren't amazingly religious beforehand and you think they're going to come out of half a century of communism as ISIS? please

>Pelasgian
How did he manage that? There are no words of secure Pelasgian origin.

I'm not picturing anything. I'm just telling you what the reports say about Albanian ISIS membership.

Certainly, the more secular a country is, the less ISIS recruits it produces, and the other way around. So I personally have a hard time believing Albania "just nominally" Muslim.

Linguists can speculate a lot of things.

>Albanians are native to the region.

Why does the entire Albanian population nowadays descend only from a small population in 500AD then?

Please address my arguments in

if you can

Likely they don't. As with any other people there are influences from other groups of people, probably even mingling.

Direct lines like that are unheard of and frankly you're being autistic.

You haven't read the thread friend. Look here:

arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v1.pdf

>Other historical signals

>There are many other possible signals in these data, here we focus on only a few.
>The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years.

>90% of ancient Illyria isn't even in Albania

The bottom 50% was greek. If they aren't illyrian or thracian, then they're greek according to this logic. But we know this is improbable so we are left with the illyrian questiom. Ancient territory is not the best way to trace groups of people.

>Albanians are totally different in culture from their neighbors

Honestly it doesn't seem as far fetched as you make it sound.

>The only people to fully embrace Islam on the Balkans

They haven't 'fully' embraced Islam. They're about 50-60% muslim without any form of quranic law. There's a big chunk of christians. Fully islamic nations are saudi arabia at the least, and ISIS at the best.

>Secondly, their language is classed as Indo-European but completely unrelated to every other IE language

Greek and Armenian are completely unrelated too. Albanian has more greek (and latin) loanwords than Chechen so I don't know how it's more similar to it than greek.

>the genetics don't match at all

If you're trying to make an illyrian connection that is. There is a myriad of haplogroups and if knew for certain then we wouldn't have this debate in the first place.

>Why does the entire Albanian population nowadays descend only from a small population in 500AD then?

It's very probable that Albanians today are descendent from just a handful of mountain villages that escaped Romanization and Hellenization.

If they were not native to the area, this small homogeneous population you speak of could not be the closest genetic relatives of the Greeks/Macedonians/Bulgarians.

The migration theory is discredited by linguistics.

>Greek and Armenian are completely unrelated too.

Armenian is almost certainly related to Greek though. At the very least they had to have shared an ancestor in the Late PIE stage. Perhaps a Hellenic-related language that split later with the Indo-Iranians rather than with the Greeks and Phrygians.

>I've read theories that they could be from the Caucasus

It's a debunked theory that came from an etymological confusion when roman map makers would sometimes arbitrarily give two lands the same name. For example there are two 'Iberias', one for spain and portugal and one for the caucuses. If the theory was true then spain would have it's origin in caucasian iberia.

>descendent from just a handful of mountain villages

I considered this too. But then what happened to the other people who lived on the territory of modern day Albania? Did they just vanish?

>closest genetic relatives of the Greeks/Macedonians/Bulgarians

"genetic relative" in terms of haplogroup means 10,000 years. Pic related, "genetic relatives" of the Albanians.

I know that, I didn't take this as evidence. But the similarity to Chechen language (you can google this), as well as their looks and acceptance of Islam.

>I considered this too. But then what happened to the other people who lived on the territory of modern day Albania? Did they just vanish?

Most of Albania is mountainous and there were many population migrations. Residents of modern Albania were probably not hugely distinct genetically, and so their assimilation into the group likely didn't play much of a role.

It's also possible that those people were pushed out as Albanians asserted themselves, or merely migrated to escape the Slavic hoards.

>"genetic relative" in terms of haplogroup means 10,000 years. Pic related, "genetic relatives" of the Albanians.
So what?
You've got a population with close genetic ties to it's southern Balkan neighbours, speaking an 'isolate' of Indo-European, with Doric and Latin addstratum that has to predate 500 AD.

They were always there.

I googled it and found no legitimate sources. Albania's natoinal dressing looks almost exactly as the greeks, pic related. Also religion has very little to do with a nations race. Christianity is a jewish religion, not a European one.

Honestly you're beating a dead horse with this one.

>It's also possible that those people were pushed out as Albanians asserted themselves, or merely migrated to escape the Slavic hoards.

Okay, that would explain the genetics. Some small mountain group pushing out the population of a 30,000 km2 region. Do you believe that? There should be records of many clan-wars, or whatever, but there's nothing. People don't give up their land for free, they either resist, or mix.

Now instead, of the Albanians were purposely settled there from somewhere outside Europe, they would have been given land, where they could peacefully reproduce and become the population they are today.

>You've got a population with close genetic ties to it's southern Balkan neighbours, speaking an 'isolate' of Indo-European, with Doric and Latin addstratum that has to predate 500 AD.

So you speculate.

I know it's convenient to believe, and I would like to believe I too. But it just doesn't seem to be true.

National dresses are a recent invention senpai, 15th to 18th century.

You should know better on Veeky Forums.

Albanians were just Epirotes who resisted Hellenization.

From what I can gather, medieval Albania was highly multicultural, and by allying themselves with the Turkish newcomers the Albanians became the elite and their language became dominant over Greek, Aromantic, and various South Slavic dialects.

>Armenian is almost certainly related to Greek though

Inasmuch as other branches are. It is not a hellenic language if it split off before the hellenistic period, that would just make it Indo-aryan. Albanian on the other hand would have split off much later, within the same geography as well, making it more relatable. Also it has more ancient greek loanwords if im not mistaken.

Really just hear someone speak armenian. It sounds nothing greek.

youtube.com/watch?v=pbYzwgl8h0M

Well everyone in the balkans look half turkish so that won't prove anything really.

I'm Albanian and hear Greek daily without actually knowing the language - this sounds like a mix between Greek and Turkish in my own opinion.

>Well everyone in the balkans look half turkish

Do they?

You are probably some blond shit. The ancestors of the people who you think "look Turkish" founded your political system, your philosophy, your science and mathematics, your literature and art.

Fucking snowniggers.

Greek here

I can only pick up 1-2 same sounding words in the beginning but I don't think they mean the same. That sounds a lot like Iranian desu.

I like how none of them even denied being Serbian lmao

Why would there be records?
What other evidence of writing exists at that period in that place?

Albanian sure wasn't being written down, and as we have no other records to identify the inhabitants in this supposed pre-albanian period. So who was going to record it?

Archaeologically Epirus appears to have been Greek as early as the Late Bronze age.

Linguists have reconstructed the proto-Greek homeland to be in Epirus.

But yes, it is possible that the Proto-Albanians were part of a pre-Greek Indo-European migration and that they were settled in the North Epirus/Albania area continuously since some time in the bronze age.

>So you speculate.
>I know it's convenient to believe, and I would like to believe I too. But it just doesn't seem to be true.

Speculate about what? Linguists say that Albanian has loan words from Doric Greek, which was probably extinct by the 1st century BC, and from Latin, ending around 500 AD.

Go find a place on a map where a language can get successive Doric and Latin loans in the period of 800 BC -> 500 AD.

Armenian wouldn't have early Greek loan words because they were in the Armenian Highlands, rather far from Hellenistic influence until the Hellenistic period.

Armenian probably was related to Proto-Greek or rather Proto-Helleno-Armenian. Some people postulate that it migrated East and South rather than West and South. The Armenian Highlands are not that far off from Mitanni, which had an Indo-Aryan population.

Indo-Iranian split from PIE after the Hellenic family. It's possible that the eastern branch of Hellenic, Proto-Armenian, split with or closer to the date of Indo-Iranian. But this theory is just mine, I have nothing to substantiate it.

The connection between Armenian and Greek is however well documented. Armenian is still pretty detached from Greek which is why it's not considered part of the Hellenic language family.

Por edhe une jam shqiptar por jam keshtu diaspore nga greqi. Gjuhe ate ne video eshte si turkisht.

>Why would there be records?

Roman/Byzantine historians.

>Linguists say that Albanian has loan words from Doric Greek, which was probably extinct by the 1st century BC, and from Latin, ending around 500 AD.

If all this is true, I will have to believe it. Do you have the source?

Just in advance: It must be a clear correlation too, not just a few words that could sound similar by coincidence. Also, the genetics problem still bugs me.

The languages that sound closer amongst the ones I've heard before are kurdish and persian (but only a little). Which kind of makes sense considering the geographical and (to a certain degree) linguistic proximity.

It sounds nothing like greek imho. And even less turkish with it's random weird sounds to be honest.

Again your theory would suggest that the connection between greek and armenian comes from a proto source. If that's true then that would mean it's farther from greek than albania since it split off much earlier. Albanian sounds satemish (russian-like pronunciations) but if you hear closely it sounds very centumish at times (greek-like). Not saying it's the same but certainly geographical location favours morphology more than you think.

Well, Wikipedia has scholarly sources for both the Doric and Latin claims:

>Doric
Huld, Martin E. (1986). "Accentual Stratification of Ancient Greek Loanwords in Albanian". Zeitschrift für vergleichende Sprachforschung (99.2): 245–253.

^^ Available on JSTOR

>Latin
Mallory & Adams 1997, p. 9.

>Roman/Byzantine historians.
The same Romans who didn't document Albanians to begin with, or any associated migrations?

They're genetically isolated starting 500 AD because, presumably, there was less Roman and Greek activity in the immediate area following the collapse of the WRE.

I am pretty sure that the ERE did not use it as a staging point for it's fleets into and out of Italy (while the Republic and pre-split Empire did) and didn't march through because of the difficult terrain.

Albanians were thus left to their own devices, more or less, since they lost their strategic significance. The fact their language persisted UNTIL 500 AD let alone beyond that is impressive and must indicate isolation at the same point that Roman influence was waning.

No. Armenian is not further from Greek. Armenian has Greek features and Iranian features. It probably represents a middle ground, geographically, to both families, and thus has similarities to both.

I really couldn't tell you what Albanian is most closely related to. All I can do is point out that it has loans that argue in favour of a Southern Balkan development of the language for over a thousand years before it was first attested.

It might have been attested, but erased

After all they are arguably the most oppressed people in the region

There is no evidence of the Greeks or Romans ever erasing a language.

If they had, they also would have left behind some record of the people who lived there, and probably would have conducted multiple campaigns to exterminate them.

The Romans didn't fuck around. You were with them, or they would spend 300 years actively trying to expunge you.

>>Doric
>Huld, Martin E. (1986). "Accentual Stratification of Ancient Greek Loanwords in Albanian". Zeitschrift für vergleichende Sprachforschung (99.2): 245–253.

Well, I don't understand a thing. There are 20 or so loanwords showcased, Is that significant in linguistics? I don't know.

I guess I'll have to suspend judgment up to another day. Thanks anyway.

>There is no evidence of the Greeks or Romans ever erasing a language.

I don't know but they did tend to write their own history since they were the victors most of the time. See: Damnatio memoriae. The fact that there are a handful of languages that have gone extinct under rome's watch should raise some eyebrows. Them romans be roamin'.

>The fact that there are a handful of languages that have gone extinct under rome's watch should raise some eyebrows. Them romans be roamin'.

How does it raise eyebrows? The Greeks accomplished the same thing. You impose your sense of order on natives, you make them work for you, soldier for you, etc. Eventually their language dies out.

Just look at Anatolia.

Without developing writing on their own, most languages had no hope of preservation. And even cultures that did have writing are difficult to trace because the amount of things they wrote was so small compared to what survives from Greece and Rome.

Even for Greece and Rome, maybe less than 5% of their writings survive from antiquity.

The Latin loans IIRC are maritime, city, and church related. Illyrians were pirates so Albanians wouldn't have needed maritime terminology to be introduced. It is possible it replaced local words because of the importance of the Albanian region to Roman shipping, I guess.

Urban loans indicate they didn't have cities of their own. Church terminology must have been in late antiquity.

Greek loans are mostly plants, probably indicative of trade and probably some agricultural transfer from Greece to Albania.

And the loans don't need to be significant. That extinct Doric loans exist in Albanian means Albanian must have had contact with Doric speakers before it became extinct in the 2nd or 1st century BC.

That Classical and Vulgar Latin loan words are identified means it had to get them before Latin was marginalized in the Balkans. Some of the Latin loans aren't in Romanian and so they had to come from earlier, Roman contact.

Pic related. Macedonian was Doric/NW Greek related and may also be the vector by which Albanian got the words. 'Albania' is surrounded by Doric Greek to the south and the East... and there aren't many other places you could put it where it would be in such direct contact.

...

/thread
>inb4 hurr durr turks lel

greek is also kentum, not satem, twat

I knew an Albanian girl who looked exactly like Annie from Attack on Titan, I was in love with her.

Annie is love
Annie is life
I just want Annie to smile again
Annie a miracle of the universe
Annie might've done some things wrong, but she's still a beautiful person inside and out

>orthognathic, long face
>bulbous forehead
>hyperbrachycephalic
>planoccipital
>prognathistic

>iberia

it is believed that both iberias relate to the semitic iver aka eber aka yevrey aka hebrew

DAS RITE

>implying there is shame in being a descendant of any origin (except Turkshit)

Not even close to a Serb btw.

That news anchor has a funny accent.

Linguistic structure is entirely different. However there are quite a few words with similar origins, so, maybe, you got the familiarity feel from there.

The funny thing is they somehow managed to keep their identity. If my memory does not betray me there are two dialects of Armenian present at this point in time. West and East Armenian. Their diaspora is using West one, which is considered to be the language of intelligentsia while the official language of their Republic is Eat Armenian, which is basically street-speak Western Armenian, although extremely refined over the years of official use.

Please correct me if I'm wrong,it's been ages since I last studied the topic.

>2) There are no Byzantine/Roman records that describe their migration or resettlement

There's a shitton of things that the Romans or Byzzies haven't left any records about. State archives were lost and if we know enything, it's because some autistic chronicler took a passing interest in it.

>3) Albanian's earliest loan words are Doric Greek (or possibly a relative, like Epirot, NW Greek, or Macedonian)
>4) Most Albanian loan words are from Classical and Vulgar Latin

That ain't an argument. Borrowing could've as well come through colonies. There were lots of Doric cities scattered across the Mediterranean.

>6) Genetic similarities between Albanians and Greeks suggest that Albanians are native to the Balkans

Nope, that ain't how it works. Language and culture could've come from abroad and assimilate local populations.

>8) Just like the Kartvelian languages in the Caucuses, Albanian demonstrates that mountains make great insulators.

As evidenced by the adoption of Islam by the Albanians?

you're a thick cunt,
Be happy, albanians are just chechen turks and not common europeans just like genetic research show.

I have actually no opinion about Albanians. I just pointed out the obvious flaws of arguments given.

Does any of that imply-list apply to me in pic related?

Albanians are Chechen Turks?

I find that highly unlikely given their linguistics and their genetics. Maybe you are just a butthurt Serb who has to justify your invasions in the Balkans?

Honestly, I'm not even from Europe - I just don't want Veeky Forums to turn into /pol/.

Serbs aren't invaders really, they're Paleo-Balkanic people who just happen to speak a Slavic language.

I'm an actual Slav and Serbs are not my kin at all if you actually look at genetic maps.

>Serbs are Paleo-Balkanic, but Albanians aren't

OK, Milosevic.

Once again I'm not Serbian and I'm not this guy either. I just know that as a fair skinned, blue eyed guy I have fuck all to do with Serbs and genetic studies tend to confirm they're not really Slavs as well.

>mtsn 'tsikzyas

They are their own people. Advanced from the near east during the Neolithic revolution. Went up into the mountains.

Language is a mixture of Illyrian, Thracian, Doric and Roman.

Likely they all hail from the same ancestors, but with influences from neighbouring peoples such as Greeks, Italians, Slavs (in general), Bulgars and Turks.

I actually have high respect for peoples like the Albanians.

All those fucking Empires looking to erase them from history, abolish them as a people and banish their language.

Yet they still go onwards.

Sure they're petty thieves and corrupt as all fuck, but evidently they won't let themselves be removed from the course of history.

Serbs never made any meaningful contribution to mankind besides the remove meme

>Slavs are a genetic group