Got done watching Empire of Dust and it got me thinking about the situation in post colonial states such as the state...

Got done watching Empire of Dust and it got me thinking about the situation in post colonial states such as the state of Congo featured in the documentary.

According to the belgian who made it, peopld there would ask him when the belhians were coming back despite the history of atrocities that took place under belgian rule. Condescending Chinaman here often waxes about how the nation he's working in has done nothing but decline since their colonial overlords left.

Is there a solution to this, though? These places seem to have missed two hundred years of development and there doesn't seem to be any practical way to remedy that, it's not like they can just become colonies again, that wouldn't really help the formation of a stable, independent nation-state.

Condescending but right.

The Congo people are pityable but wrong in their beliefs.

To make things work, they have to move past the past and go for the future.

>the history of atrocities that took place under belgian rule.
That was mostly under King Leo. The official Belgian administration was pretty good.

The problem with Belgians is that when they left, they didn't leave any institutions behind. Most of leaders were Belgians, so you are left a country with no legistlative body, no legal institutions. Without those, infrastucture is useless when you have no one to take care of them.
So the big question is, how do you import those? The American way of bombing democracy isn't really bringing results we'd hope.

Didn't the Chinese also benefit from colonial rule? And then let shit slide?

Two points

1) China wasn't colonized. It was bullied into opening its borders. The only bits of China colonized were the concessions, which are cities but most of the time, bits of cities. Chinese modernization was done by the Late Qing/Republic & Warlords/and the victorious CCP, with help from western firms & governments
2) Hong Kong isn't a fucking wreck.

Eh, It works most of the time.

When you're dealing with places like Iraq or Afghanistan, there isn't a hell of a lot you can do. I'd count Japan, Germany, and South Korea as pretty good outcomes for a colonial power.

>no legistlative body, no legal institutions. Without those, infrastucture is useless when you have no one to take care of them.
If it was America it wouldn't matter at all. People would still go to work, private sectors would continue on and eventually pickup where the gov left off. People would just take care of it. Same for most of Europe, I would think.

I understand this is now and things change, but really what's the difference between their situation and the days of pioneering the wild west?

It's like Liberia. Enslaved by freedom.

>I'd count Japan, Germany, and South Korea as pretty good outcomes for a colonial power.

Worlds apart from actual colonised nations. None of those nations were ever colonised.

A symbiotic form of rule would actually work wonders for many of these countries I think.
I mean we already give them millions in aid and the money clearly isn't being used properly. So why not take some form of systematic control over them and get something in return while building them up?

Yes! There is a solution!

Tumultuous colonial revolts that totally displace the existing administrative class virtually never work, because no one has any idea how to run a society.

Currently, many post-colonial african countries got caught up in socialist economic policies. They aspired to socialist autarky, and this is unattainable. The solution to the economic dilemmas of these countries is free market economic policies and significant state investment in infrastructure and education.

One of the biggest issues is how "soft" these states are. To effectively transition from their current existence as backwaters into modern states, or at least middle-income states, western powers must allow dictators to take power.

Basically fuck their sovereignty, they're making all the wrong decisions.

A war of rent takes a long time to finish.
Isis is attempting to turn Syria into a war of rent right now.

Tutsis should conquer the Congo.

>Is there a solution to this, though?
Don't assassinate those trying to find a solution.

you dumb fucker, these idiots had no idea of how to run the place. Of course americans who know how to run things or had experience would just continue. jesus christ

Korea was colonized by Japan

America would be in chaos too if government suddenly would disappear. I mean your budget ceilings have shown what kind chaos that alone has caused.

They don't understand history. The Congo suffered due to a lack of security brought about by the cold war, arms proliferation and proxy wars.

The way things are going, the only way I can see some semblance of civilization returning to African is when China finally just takes over the continent wholesale. The Africans simply weren't culturally ready to assume the mantle of national leadership. It's not that they are stupid or genetically inferior, it's just that Western and Eastern civilizations have had more sustained practice with maintaining modern nations.

Things will probably degrade until either some bright figure from within Africa and whips things into shape in his corner of the continent, or an outside power steps in and takes up a leadership role. Western societies are too crippled by their colonial pasts to even think about retaking control; the Arab nations could take over themselves but they're having their own internal issues; this leaves China, which is already moving forward with settlement plans, infrastructure takeover, and resource buildup within Africa. I bet you that maintenance clause in the railroad contract they talk about in Empire of Dust is really an excuse to get a foothold in the Congo by maintaining a constant Chinese presence. God help the Africans if the Chinese do manage to take over. They're not haunted by colonial guilt and they have that whole "Middle Kingdom" mentality going on.

do you really any reading to seriously support that position though?

As far as I know, there was plenty of africans that went to study in europe.
Thats why there was an organized and consistent independence movement in the first place.
The problem is that the existing colonial institutions were thrown out of the window

really have any reading*

god help the africans if china goes full colonial there.

Europeans will look like saints

>The official Belgian administration was pretty good.

Actually they were pretty dogshit. Check how awful their education was.

>The problem is that the existing colonial institutions were thrown out of the window

Actually the problem was retaining a colonial structure instead of moving past that. A lot of African states kept a colonial like model because that was the only one they knew since ruling a managing a colony is very different from ruling a nation.

>that wouldn't really help the formation of a stable, independent nation-state.
Maybe that isn't the point,

This.

There are plenty of stable African states. Stop bunching up all Africans states under one group.

>Things will probably degrade until either some bright figure from within Africa and whips things into shape in his corner of the continent,

Those guys get killed quite often. See the activists trying to bring accountability to multinationals getting assassinated.

China has no care about maintaining a pressure they just want trucking money and that's it.

Obligatory post

No. No.

All utterly pointless we find a cheap cure / vaccine for AIDS.

>spend x training up generation
>1/3 then catch HIV & die

There's a lot you could do, it's just that the Americans and Russians only knew how to do one thing and one thing only.

>One of the biggest issues is how "soft" these states are. To effectively transition from their current existence as backwaters into modern states, or at least middle-income states, western powers must allow dictators to take power.

This only works for mostly monoethnic states. When you try it with a state teeming with unique tribes and language groups it spirals into disaster as only the dictator's tribe starts to develop along modern lines, but does so to the detriment of everyone else in the country. Eventually it comes to bite them in the ass.

Barely. 1905

The difference is China pays. It doesn't take.

Actually if you had an idea a proper health care system and fucking education (see what I did there) curbs HIV you dolt. On top of that we already have medication that lets an HIV positive mother not give the virus to the child.

Have you seen the fucked up shit multinationals and corporations do in developing countries? Hell in Canada one guy wrote a book and a company successfully sue for slander. He couldn't sell it anymore but he or some other close associates posted the book for free online since at least the news it out.

That doesn't change the fact China and Africa AGREED.

Can't say the same for European colonies.

On topic of Canad we have a lot of nasty shit that isn't really out in the open in regards to mining and developing countries.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Actually I didn't mean to respond to you and it was a mistake on my part.

Thought so

Only /pol/ and anti-China shills are like that.

>In scores of incidents, whites were humiliated, beaten and raped; priests and nuns were singled out for special insults. Seized by panic, the white population fled in thousands. The Belgian government at first tried to persuade Lumumba to permit Belgian troops stationed in the Congo to restore order, but when Lumumba refused, it unilaterally ordered Belgian forces into action and arranged to fly in reinforcements. As Belgian troops took control of key points like Léopoldville airport, Lumumba became convinced that Belgium was trying to reimpose its rule. He broke off diplomatic relations and declared that, as far as he was concerned, the Congo was now at war with Belgium.

>In an increasingly volatile mood, he [Lumumba] demanded that the UN force be used to expel Belgian troops. After meeting him in Léopoldville on 16 July, the head of the UN operation in the Congo, Ralph Bunche, an African-American awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his United Nations work, reported that ‘Lumumba was crazy and that he reacted like a child’. The following day, Lumumba issued an ultimatum threatening that if the UN did not remove all Belgian troops from the Congo by midnight on 19 July, then he would invite the Soviet Union to intervene. At a time when Cold War rivalry was at one of its peaks, Lumumba’s threats infuriated the United States and pitched the Congo into the middle of a Cold War confrontation.

He had a point

Belgium invaded the DRC

Downhill? The Congo was never good. Don't try to paint colonialism as the good ol' days.

>Corrupt governments looking to make a cheap buck of China's quest to strip mine it
>China doesn't even employ locals, ships it's own workers in, builds massive buildings to house them which fall into disrepair after they leave
>don't set up any permanent infrastructure for the Africans, strip mine any long term resource potential of the Africans
>African governments use the money to pay themselves and then pay the army to keep them in power

>Just because it's not the West doing it, it's ok

O, glorious, benevolent China!

>mutineers and rioters are sweeping through your country committing atrocities against foreign nationals
>your government is clearly in no position to protect said foreign nationals
>that foreign nation offers its forces to restore order and preserve their foreign nationals
>tell them to get fucked
>express shock when they send their forces in regardless

Are you referring to that specific incident? If your government is physically incapable of stopping mass rape and ethnic violence there is absolutely nothing wrong with another state stepping in and stopping said mass rape and ethnic violence.

If you're referring to the colonization, then no, Belgium did not, as there was no DRC before Belgium arrived.

>>China doesn't even employ locals, ships it's own workers in, builds massive buildings to house them which fall into disrepair after they leave

Actually a lot of workers are Africans. They only bring Chinese in if there aren't enough Africans to fill a certain role. In places where they used to have industry a few years back they use local labour and in many places they set up training programs for African labour because importing Chinese to work temp is more expensive then training a bunch of Africans to do the work.

He wanted the UN to intervene since the whole point of the UN is to help stop shit like this.

Also Belgium interest supported the split of Katanga off from Congo and Moise Tshome.

For sure.

However there are African countries which are still stable and have good institutions.

In order for some of these African countries to improve, they must turn away from socialism and employ state capitalism.

Education and capital. If the IMF, WTO and co. weren't fucking around with peoples lives this wouldn't be the situation.

>The solution to the economic dilemmas of these countries is free market economic policies and significant state investment in infrastructure and education.

Halfway there, first all foreign organisation should let them alone. Second the state should protect industries, develop human capital and personally run all the enterprises that are optimal under natural monopoly. The free market is NOT the solution for developing nations.

And seriously? A dictator would just go straight into corruption, that's just stupid. Of course again political stability is needed but not the kind that is likely to just exploit the nation, most important for stability is just that world powers keep a hands off approach and don't put up trade barriers against their cheap exports.

Stuff like this makes me want to cry.

Northern China was civilized by the Japs, and the Chinese don't seem all that grateful for it.

Botswana rejected the IMF and had the greatest sustained growth of all time.

They're currently propped up by exports but hopefully they will use their accumulating wealth to deal with their health problems and diversify their industry.

The funny thing about capitalism vs socialism debates is it's all retarded. The only way growth has ever happened, regardless of where you are, is through nationalistic industrial policy. State capitalism is the only way.

>Northern China.
>Under Jap rule
What are you smoking?

what is machuko

Northern China means all of China above the fucking Huai River you doofus.

As for Manchukuo, why should Chinks be grateful for nips wanting to split their country apart? Manchurians are a culturally dead people to begin with.

>since the whole point of the UN is to help stop shit like this.

I don't think the point of the UN is to fight against "foreign occupiers" trying to prevent atrocities against their foreign nationals

>As for Manchukuo, why should Chinks be grateful for nips wanting to split their country apart?
Built infrastructure, brought medicine, tried to teach the Chinese civilization. Unfortunately, the Chinese chimped out and fucked themselves over.

UN is just the colonial grand exchange.

China is a big of a made up concept as the DRC. It be like if rome formed in europe and included a series of lands that were never actually in rome or were a vassal for 5 years, thousands of years after rome proper

>He believes the Greater-East Asia Co Prosperity Meme.
"Guys, guys, Asia for Asians! But we're attacking China first and disrupting the Republic's Anti-Commie War for reasons!"

Same applies to shitskins islanders as well. I remember living in Guam and being surprised at how many of the people from various surrounding islands used the Japanese terms for electricity, lights, and toilets.

>MUH ARTIFICIAL CONSTRUCT
Hello R3ddit!

>Japan leaves
>Chinese literally destroy what little culture their had
>Now cook their food in sewage, have fallen behind sub-saharan africa economically.

>it's not like they can just become colonies again
>Implying the Chinese aren't colonising them and other parts of Africa for their mineral rights.

In aiding third world countries, for sure.

South Korea was such a country that benefitted from such, then when it was ready, expanded and changed its economy to help move it forward even more.

...

>Disrupts Nationalist war efforts versus Commies.
>ITS UR FAULT :DD

kek chinks just can't stand being on the other side of the leash

"Everything is constructs! The Congo? Post-Colonial Construct.China? Uh, um, Construct that took a millenia or so to build. See! Nothing is real! Sheeple."

People in china don't have the same race or culture or religion

>tfw the stains in your history prohibit you from engaging in colonial adventurism
>ywn compete with industrious hanbros in a race to bring civilization to the dark continent

"Duuuude, countries could not have a universalist state identity that unites people. This could only be constructed!"

You could join a corporation and do the same thing.

Well, good thing it's called "Middle State" then, and not "Hanland" or something.

>we want freedom!
>okay here it is
>wait, but we're not ready!
abloobloobloo

Fun fact; Congolese immigrants are pro-Flemish seperation because they know it was the Walloons that fucked them over.

You have to pimp your country out to get the help form those organizations and often the help comes with a caveat or shit that no sane country would want to do.

Most of Africa was under dictators so supporting shitty ones won't do much.

Protecting industries is harder then it seems because stronger nations can bitch to the WTO or trade deals are heavily against the developing nation. Even then there's a lot of factors into making trade hard like like of infrastructure, weak tax revenue, massive subsidies and tariffs.

Certain foreign organizations should be left alone but only the good ones ie the ones that setup stable institutes or citizenry empowerment or improvement and permanent solutions.

You don't have the same climate now as you did back then where you had other countries willing to babysit you to get you on your feet.
Copying the competition's tech is not a possibility because while china is untouchable little Rwanda or Indonesia is though.

Thing is DRC as a colony was VERY VERY far behind other African colonies. and stat wise it showed badly.

Why are constructions invalid anyway? All knowledge, concepts, etc, and many things in the real world are constructed. That doesn't mean they're invalid.

>Thing is DRC as a colony was VERY VERY far behind other African colonies. and stat wise it showed badly.
Well, if you're not ready for freedom, but you're asking for it, and you're granted it, don't come back years on bitching about how it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be.

Dont talk to me, talk to user few posts up

>tfw the stains in your history prohibit you from engaging in colonial adventurism

People who say that think they'd be the ones in charge but 95% you'd be the grunts or the guys they'd send to die due to some tropical disease to set up a place for the actual skilled people of worth to the colony.

Because there are actually valid people and cultures within the PRC, while the PRC itself is essentially a giant corporation that makes Austria-hungary and the soviet union look like valid states

>As far as I know, there was plenty of africans that went to study in europe.
For the Congo, you could count one two hands the number of university educated blacks at the moment of independence. All of those educated in the humanities. That was the problem: no educated upper class to rule.

w-what there's no doc named Empire of Dust

I think you took what I said the wrong way. I blame the IMF and the like with no implication that I expect them to change their behaviour and be the solution, contrary to what some people think I don't think IMF policy is a case of misguided theory - I'm 100% sure they're doing what they're doing on purpose.

>Most of Africa was under dictators so supporting shitty ones won't do much.
No one said that though, in fact the opposite was claimed. Do not support dictators under any circumstances.

You're right about the strategic acceptance of foreign enterprises and in general I'm aware of the problems you bring up but that doesn't mean those are the wrong solutions - since it's the only thing that ever worked. What do you think should be done?

You have to keep in mind the starting point : the congolese were still at the "naked jungle cannibal" stage when the Belgians arrived.

In 50 years they developped the Congo pretty damn well. They didn't create any rocket scientists but they stamped out cannibalism for instance.

Don't worry I see what you mean, since you can't control the trade rules at least take in the businesses that will benefit your nation in the long run.

to clarify this post was an addendum and not a reply
>inb4 autism

No they don't.

They bring in Chinese and only use Africans if 100% forced to.

You're retarded.

I visited Namibia, you cant fool me Xing Ping.

Lol, buttblasted chinks upset they have the same /pol/tarded standards applied to them. I don't understand why so many nips/chinks/etc are so racist that they post on /pol/

The Balkan states missed out on enlightenment, renaissance, industrialization, among other things. When the russian emperor was liberating Bulgaria he stayed in hovels and huts, upon liberation their capital had 12000 people, of which 3500 were jews and moved away.
They worked out okayish, and are surely better places to live, work and trade in than the African states. The capital has nearly 2 million population today.

>when your boss is talking shit but you can't respond cause he'll just fire you

We just need to install a brutal dictator who is actually a puppet for the UN into these countries. Teach them english and christianity and they'll improve within a few generations. Honestly africans don't really have any culture which is worth preserving so it's probably for their own good that it's wiped out as soon as possible.
Also drones to terrorize dissidents whenever they will inevitably appear. Do they actually have any natural resources worth exploiting though?

>>>/thewhitemansburden/

No the chinese are just there for shits and giggles

>You
>You
>You
>Motherfucker I wasn't colonized by anyone, nor did I run the government post colonialism, I'm 30.

If it wasn't for Deng Xiaoping and Nixon the Chinese guy would be in the same spot.

>Nignogs chimp out, having civil war round 1,856,900 killing 1,856,900,000 overpopulated nignog babies
>Civilized power intervenes after their chimp out kills some of their own citizens.
>Bring progress and education
>Nignogs complain that you interupted their pointless civil war.
We should just Quarantine China so they can kill each other as much as they like.

>We just need to install a brutal dictator who is actually a puppet for the UN into these countries.
Mobuto, in other words? Yeah, great plan.