Hitlers command structure is inherently fucked just by the fact that the SS exists and it can overrule Army commands.
How and why a bunch of German elites with Vons in the middle of their names got memed into obeying a fucking Clerk and his Austrian Peasant boss is beyond me.
Bentley Bell
So yeah, do you think if Hitler and his retardedness wasn't there could Germany have won the war?
I think if they had focused on taking out Britain, and then had supported Rommel they could have launched a two-pronged invasion into Russia
Aiden Bell
>July >Winter
Owen Jenkins
>started in summer instead of spring
Wyatt Ramirez
>starting in spring >when mud will prohibit large-scale tank movements
There is no way the invasion of Russia could have worked. It was fundamentally flawed from the start.
Joshua Foster
>do you think if Hitler and his retardedness wasn't there could Germany have won the war?
probably wouldent have been a war in that case son
>I think
you should stop doing that
Blake Morales
if they hade only stuck to operation blue instead of hitler ordering them to take stalingrad then winter wouldent matter, the soviet union would only have a few more punches in it and then it would crumble, but as you where so clever to see hitler fucked it all up with his superior mind, good thing he was so smart amirite
Elijah Johnson
You mean:
-abandoning the Blitz and Sealion for fucking Barbarossa -not telling Rommel about Barbarossa -not streamlining logistics -turning his entire general corps into a Game of Thrones scenario
Thomas Cook
Germany is a bit more interesting to think about concerning their war goals when you take all the smaller victories and find out why they were needed. Germany's initial campaigns were primarily for the purpose of securing resources.
Hitler was right in knowing that if a major world war was to start in earnest when it was not on his terms, he would see Germany's reserves of Iron, Oil, and copper disappear in no time. So he needed to make up for the resource drought in sheer war gains.
Denmark and Norway were taken to secure nickel and Iron in Scandinavia, and box in Sweden's current trade of Iron to Germany. France and the Low countries were taken for farmland, so Germany wouldn't face the same food problem that plagued it in World War I, and Romania and the Balkans were secured for the oil, as well as the Soviet non-aggression pact for securing more oil shipments.
But Germany was still consuming more oil than they had in-house, and the deficit was being made up in Soviet shipments. Hitler's nightmare was that Stalin could use this oil as a bargaining chip to twist Germany's arm, and he was having none of that.
The invasion of the USSR was necessary to secure the rest of Germany's resources and relied on that fast knock-out blow to bring the USSR to its knees so Germany can further strengthen its resource security, but the Soviets did hold firm and the war began in earnest at Moscow.
From that point on, Germany would face increasingly severe resource shortages until the end of the war, which was the reason for increasingly desperate moves like moving to the Caucasus for Soviet oil fields and charging to El Alamein to try and seize the Suez Canal and hopefully a supply line for Arab oil.
All of Germany's moves were to prepare for long and protracted war, and relied on those short knock-out wars to prepare. Once the big war started in Russia, Germany was on the timer while the Allies had all the time in the world to build up resources and momentum.
Lincoln Rivera
>abandoning... Sealion for fucking Barbarossa
You can't abandon something you never really intended to do in the first place.
Tyler Sanchez
Honestly I still struggle to see why people get such a hard on for Sealion. That plan needed to stay nice and theoretical for everyone's sake.
Owen Barnes
I admit it's a fairly interesting as alt-history scenario, though I doubt a lot of people understand what a hilarious shit show it would have been for the Germans, had they gone through with it in the way they intended.
Samuel Baker
Sealion could have been a shitshow, but it also meant dealing with the only country that was actually at war with Germany at the time.
Samuel Adams
And it was very impractical and would have entailed big losses.
Parker Russell
If you mean the amphibous landings themselves, I'm sure the Germans would have fucked that up. Shit, the Soviets fucked theirs up at Shumshu and they knew the theory.
However, discounting Sealion, something had to be done with Britain. Somehow.
Blake Bell
Sea Lion was impossible. Perhaps it would've been a better idea to invade Iraq via Turkey and challenge the British army on land. Don't know how Stalin would have reacted to that move.
Alexander Roberts
You have to into consideration that wars of this caliber are won or lost on logistics and access to natural resources vital for the military and for the population.
Germany was cucked out of colonies in the WWII, didn't have a global diplomatic network of political-economical alignment system (except for Japan, but even that was inefficient as fuck) and didn't have a navy capable of securing access to worldwide resources. It was a european country stuck in Europe. Taking the Balkans wasn't a stupidity, it was a necessity because of the oil and minerals. Just like taking Norway was vital to secure the influx of Swedish iron.
Still, the Romanian oil fields weren't by far large enough to supply Germany with the amounts of oil they needed.
In this situation, there are just 3 possible scenarios:
a) go to war with the USSR, which is your current provider of oil and many other natural resources, but also a rival and a potential threat that is embarked in a rearmament process. b) go after the Middle East via Egypt c) neither, and focus resources and the military-industrial complex towards an invasion of Britain.
Options b and c have the con that it would take time, over a year at least at the shortest (specially after Goering wrecked the Luftwaffe with his stupid shift in the air campaign against the RAF for a useless general blitz strategy),and in the meantime you are letting the USSR proceed unmolested with their rearming and you eventually become vulnerable to a Soviet attack if Stalin decides to go at you.
Option a has the con that are you fighting the motherfucking USSR, in addition to the Brits still alive and you've just lost your only source of natural resources, which was the USSR itself. Looks like the worst choice to me. But in the end, it came down to Hitler ideological reasons of Superior Race, annihilating communism and acquring the lebensraum in the east slav lands for Germany. The choice of madness, stupidity and inevitable defeat.
Parker Garcia
>Antagonized and eventually declared war on the US instead of distancing himself from Pearl Harbour
The British also had an ally in the USA so Hitler could not have distanced Germany from Pearl Harbour. The two were hardly on terms with the USA supplying the Britain with arms.
Ther also had to enter the Balkans to support the Italians and attack the British who were stationed out of Greece.
I struggle to see how Hitler could have won the war. The best he could have done was reach a peace and consolidate his position, though the other user is right when he says that they were on a timeline since the USSR could have soon challenged them in Europe. If he could have seized Moscow and negotiated a settlement with Stalin maybe but the whole conflict was so ideologically driven it's hard to see where a peace would come from.
Parker Gomez
>how to be wrong about everything in one post
Bentley Ross
You forgot to mention how Hitler spared the British army when he first took over France. Those men that he let go were there for the invasion of D-Day. Let's also not forget that the no retreat policy didn't just elicited his armies, but eliminated his veteran troops, tank commanders, and officers.
One of the few recordings ever of Hitler speaking in his normal voice with his guard down, and it sheds a lot of light on reasoning for doing the things he did in regards to the war up to that point. You see that the madness/racism view explaining why Hitler did what he did doesn't really hold up. The real explanation is that Hitler was very wary of the USSR's growing power, the resources at Germany's disposal, and that you realize that Hitler was in many ways in a no-win-situation and had clearly realized this.
Carson Martin
>How and why a bunch of German elites with Vons in the middle of their names got memed into obeying a fucking Clerk and his Austrian Peasant boss is beyond me.
"I won't shoot myself for a Bohemian corporal." -Friedrich Paulus, the commander in charge of Stalingrad
Xavier Barnes
You mean to say that Hitler didn't lose some of his greatest warriors due to his no retreat policy? And that he didn't spare British POWs in France?
Josiah Martin
The soldiers in Dunkirk weren't POWs retard. But you're right that the halt order was arguably his biggest fuckup that changed the war in favor of the Allies.
Dominic Peterson
He didn't give the halt order, Rundstedt did. And there were some pretty good reasons for the halt order, including the obvious fact that a couple of tank divisions with 10% of operational tanks were unlikely to successfully destroy 300k men.
Sebastian Campbell
You do understand Hitler was a masterful liar and manipulator? Of course he was different when talking to Mannerheim. Now I'm not arguing he was cartoon-tier evil, but his attack on USSR was a war of conquest, pure and simple.
Anthony Garcia
What said. Along with the fact that hte tank divisions were in serious need of a refit and the crews in need of serious R&R after weeks of non-stop fighting, the infantry needed to be given time to catch up and get into a position to attack.
Unsupported tank divisions attacking entrenched potions = dead tank divisions.
Dylan Collins
I highly doubt he was speaking anything but the truth to Mannerheim in this snip-it. I can't put my finger on it, but he is speaking in such an off-the-cuff and unhilter-y way that it has to be genuine. Also, in this context Hitler has no reason to lie to Mannerheim as they were already both involved in a war together and were very-much in to deep.
And the war with the USSR was not purely for conquest, that is thinking too simplistically. Now, I do not deny that one of the key reasons wasn't conquest, but it was certainly not the sole reason. Perhaps an even more pressing reason for the war was that Hitler -- quite rightly so -- determined the USSR would be the single biggest threat to Germany. If a war were to break out, correction, when a war finally broke out, Hitler knew it had to be on Germany's terms. Germany could not afford to wage a defensive war against an enemy with infinitely more reasources, their only hope was a extremely successful first strike by Germany to hopefully knock out the USSR before she could get up to tip-top fighting shape.
This was Hitler's biggest error, as he points out in the clip, the underestimation of the fighting capacity of the USSR in 1941. Hitler knew the earlier to fight the USSR the better, as he references when he says he wanted to start the war with them in 1940 but was delayed in the west. Hitler knew the USSR was no push-over, but hoped that by 1941 they still weren't quite properly recovered enough to fight back hard enough to stop a German advance. This was the fatal error, Hitler was simply too late.
Ethan King
>Decided to change targets from British airfields to Cities during the battle of britain just because some cucking bomber dropped a bomb on Berlin Bombing airfields wasn't working. RAF was building more planes than they were losing. >-decided to go into the Balkans when there was no real reason to British forces in Greece and Yugolsavia would have threatened Romanian oil fields, not to mention create another new front >-decided not to support Rommel as much as he could have because it would have taken away from the Soviet Invasion force sideshow >-decided to invade Russia 1) in the winter and 2) while Britain was still lalive and kicking Red Army was getting stronger every year. History proved 1941 was already too late >-Enforced a "no retreat" rule, causing the destruction of several armies that could have retreated then been used to counterattack At that point the war was already decided >-Antagonized and eventually declared war on the US instead of distancing himself from Pearl Harbour There is no way the US would have stayed out of it. >-kept switching his invasion focus from Stalingrad to Moscow to Leningrad that's not how it happened >-kept funneling resources into shitty projects like the Tiger Tank and V2 rockets instead of perfecting and spamming the Panther design The war was long lost at that point and the Panther wasn't any better than all the other rushed designs they had to put into service because their prewar planning was shit. >-decided to ban mass parachute missions Because those would have helped?
10/10 armchair generalship, OP
Connor Rodriguez
it ended up with more losses in the long run though. If they had taken out Britain then and there, D-day wouldn't have had a hope in hell of happening. Ditto if he had supported Rommel more.
Exactly. Option B wowuld have made the most sense given that they had oil too, and could have also been used as a starting point for operation Barbarossa. Sure the USSR got time to rearm, but the Germans also got another point that they needed to cover.
Incidentally taking out England would have been the smartest option in hindsight
Why should they support the Italians? The troops amounted to fuck-all when not being led and armed by Germans.
Paulus got fucked in the end anyway by the Russians
>bombing airfields wasnt working
yes it was
>British forces in Greece and Yugolsavia would have threatened Romanian oil fields, not to mention create another new front
which would have meant jack shit if Britain fell
>that's not how it happened
thats exactly how it happened. Manstein got his tanks taken from him, then given back, then taken from him again
Isaiah Adams
Never heard of this interpretation of the order. IIRC, the reason was the paranoia of getting outflanked. Yet, there was no threat of this.
Justin Murphy
>which would have meant jack shit if Britain fell There was a higher chance of Britain being taken out by alien space bats than by Germany.
Nathan Rogers
No. Germany had little to no chance even before making enemies with USSR, let alone after. By the time the US joined the fight, the war was lost for Germany.
Caleb Hernandez
>By this time, however, Kleist's armoured forces were thinly stretched and had suffered losses of up to 50% of their tanks.[32] Kleist asked Rundstedt for a pause while the armoured units recovered and the infantry caught up, and Rundstedt agreed to this. If Wikipedia knows about it, and you don't, that probably means you are less of an expert on the issue than you previously thought you were.
Jonathan Richardson
>decided to invade Russia 1) in the winter July is winter now?
ok
Ethan Roberts
>-Decided to change targets from British airfields to Cities during the battle of britain just because some cucking bomber dropped a bomb on Berlin Literally no effect on the outcome of the Battle of Britain. Which was a fight of attrition the Luftwaffe was losing from the start.
>-decided not to support Rommel as much as he could have because it would have taken away from the Soviet Invasion force The NA theater could not bear any more support. As in the ports were at capacity and the logistics chain was strained beyond belief. Which, coupled with Rommel's inability to deal with logistics properly, had funny results.
>-decided to invade Russia 1) in the winter and 2) while Britain was still lalive and kicking >in the winter Oh wait. I see now. Get out.
Nicholas Fisher
>There is no way the US would have stayed out of it. There's actually no way the US could have gotten into it
Brody Clark
>it's another 'could the Nazis have won thread'
Quick answer : no
Anthony Wood
>muh hitler made all the bad decisions >the general staff are good bois dindu nuffin >mufuggin furher keepin us down
Matthew Perez
He invaded the balkans(yugoslavia specifically) because the Brits overthrew the axis loyal government in a coup
He didn't invade Russia in the winter, he just didn't get the job done fast enough.
Isaiah Hughes
bump
Dominic Bell
No.
Aiden Jackson
Do modern historians agree that the stop order was reasonable? It seems like everyone thinks it was a mistake and the question is just why this decision had been made.
Eli Gonzalez
It was June retard
Jackson Hill
>decided to invade Russia
stopped reading here because you don't know what you're talking about. Every single day the invasion of the Soviet Union was delayed was another day they spent bringing their factories up to speed and rebuilding their self-decimated officer corp. Hitler should have invaded far sooner.
Andrew Baker
>1163229
In Hearts of Iron 3, the USSR was hard coded to declare war on Germany if they Germans took London. It's possible that Stalin would have stabbed Hitler in the back when they were focused elsewhere.
