Why do people say that Sub Saharan Africa never had civilizations, let alone advanced ones? Many had huge cities with cultivating learning centers, large populations, and a standing military. I'm not saying they're as advance as the ones in Europe and Asia but they're good regardless.
>400 replies >this post has been deleted >spamming gore is not an argument
David Watson
I've never seen this thread before.
Noah Jones
Wait a minute, so you are saying that my ancestors used to be monarchs ?
Parker Long
All the african "civilizations" south of the Sahara were either arab outposts for slave trade, or chiefdoms propped up by portugese slave traders (thinking of Kongo here).
>inb4 Ethiopia Ethiopia is not really african. It's afro-semitic.
Levi Jackson
HOLD
Jaxon Morales
I somewhat agree with you on Ethiopia. It's true that a lot of the people there were migrants from the Arabian peninsula, based on what I've read. And it obviously had close relations with that region through trade via the Red Sea.
I'm less sure about your first point though. How would you explain shit like Great Zimbabwe?
Adrian Bailey
>Ethiopia is not really african. When will this meme end, my country is African. it's literally in Africa. how can you get more African.
Mason Jenkins
SO YOU BE SAYIN'
Elijah Young
culture > geography > race
Anthony Edwards
WE
Alexander Jackson
>How would you explain shit like Great Zimbabwe? Great Zimbabwe was most likely a trade post by Yemenite gold/slave traders. There's this tribe in South Africa called the Lemba who observes jewish rituals and who has always claimed to have built Great Zimbabwe. Their claims used to be disregared but genetic testing shows that they indeed have a high proportion of semitic ancestry, on their paternal line (i.e. they descend from male middle easterners who took african wives)
>it's literally in Africa So what? So were the boer states. Were they african?
>how can you get more African By not being culturally and genetically linked to the middle east.
Jaxson Walker
Interesting analysis. That's the first time I've heard of that particular theory on Great Zimbabwe. I'm still not entirely convinced of it though. Specifically, how would we know that the ancestors of that group of people built Great Zimbabwe? I feel like the evidence is kind of sketchy.
Ethiopia quadrupled in size during the 19th century because they took part in the African scramble at the same time as the european powers.
When we talk about ethiopians, we usually refer to the historical ethiopians, i.e. the habeshas. Not the peoples they conquered during the 19th century.
Samuel Anderson
Please end this meme! This hamitic theory bullshit needs to end. Is everyone here a time traveller from the 19th century? Please read Mahmood Mamdani's "Saviors and Survivors." He makes a convincing argument in chapters 1 and 2 about how this race theory is self-referential and nothing short of stupid.
Jacob Barnes
The Lemba did not do that, there are precursors to its development that are much older than the Yemenite Jewish permanent migration to Southeast Africa. We even have a date for it. Habesha are genetically and culturally varied and while I do not agree with the Amharization of Ethiopian history I as a Hebesha find the erasure of our africaness hilarious.
Arabs had nothing to do with our development, especially when one considers it was Cushitics who were in prehistoric Arabia Felix before any Semitic migrants came about and it was our people who they blended with and with whom our cushitic influences are still found in Yemen and Oman in language and the whole region genetically
Easton Roberts
Ethiopia is African, there's no other way to put it.
>Not geographically in the middle east >A christian nation >Genetically closer to SSA than ME >Culture is indiginous African
They even inspired the pan African flag.
Andrew Martin
>Please end this meme! This hamitic theory bullshit needs to end. What? It's not bullshit. It's even supported by genetic studies.
>Is everyone here a time traveller from the 19th century? Are you implying that we are not allowed to make statements about anything which we have not personally experienced?
>Please read Mahmood Mamdani's "Saviors and Survivors." He makes a convincing argument in chapters 1 and 2 about how this race theory is self-referential and nothing short of stupid. Never heard of him, but from reading his wiki page he seems like the standard post-colonial wa wa evil white people academic. Care to elaborate what his claims were?
>The Lemba did not do that, there are precursors to its development that are much older than the Yemenite Jewish permanent migration to Southeast Africa. We even have a date for it. I'd love to see an article or citation about that.
>Habesha are genetically and culturally varied and while I do not agree with the Amharization of Ethiopian history I as a Hebesha find the erasure of our africaness hilarious. So what, you're a kind of self-hating africanist amhara?
>Arabs had nothing to do with our development Why do you feel the need to strawman? Please quote the post where I said that the habeshas were arab.
All I said is that Ethiopia was historically culturally linked to the middle east, and that ethiopians are heavily semitic (around 50% of their genome).
You're like a light-skinned Mexican claiming to be an Aztec. Hilarious.
Logan Russell
Semitic is not a race, it's a linguistic group.
East Africans are mostly Ethio-Somali and Nilo-Saharan, Ethiopians have an additional component called Ethiopic. This is genetic fact and not reliant on obsolete data and reference groups.
Minor influences of Arabian ancestry stems not anything recent, there are NO forms of evidence that speak of a recent demographic shift of Arabians into Ethiopia. Rather we have evidence of back and forth migrations for tens of thousands of years between Ethiopic/Ethio-Somali populations and Ethio-Somali/Arabian populations such as Mehri in Yemen.
If its Africanist to state that the populations of Africa are varied because we are the most genetically diverse continent on Earth than every geneticist is an Africanist.
Bentley Collins
>Semitic is not a race, it's a linguistic group. Please stop playing on semantics. You know exactly what populations I'm talking about. I don't care about its name in scientific literature. Normal people call them "semitic".
>. This is genetic fact and not reliant on obsolete data and reference groups. Here are genetic facts for you.
>Minor influences of Arabian ancestry stems not anything recent, blablabla Are you mentally retarded? I just told you to stop strawmanning. Please point the post where I claim that the semitic admixture among ethiopians stems from a recent arabian migration.
But there was indeed a migration of Eurasians into Africa through Ethiopia 3000 years ago, who are responsible for the middle eastern admixture in the ethiopian gene pool
>If its Africanist to state that the populations of Africa are varied because we are the most genetically diverse continent on Earth than every geneticist is an Africanist. You didn't state that at all, you stated that Ethiopians were "truly african" because they inspired the pan african flag or something. Shitty argument, friendo.
Julian Butler
BASED
Isaiah Robinson
Anyways I know I'm wasting my time. You'll disregard any scientific proof (genetic studies), historical evidence (like the fact that non-habeshas were slaves until like 70 years ago) and instead will spout your inane pan-africanist propaganda.
KYS
Ethan Smith
If you read any actual historians you'd realize that this sort of stuff is not timeless and that you are talking about an artifact of the colonial era and ethipian "imperial" era. Yes they were slaves until 70 years ago, but go back in history to around 300 years ago and you find that this is not the case anymore.
Jaxson Roberts
>What? It's not bullshit. It's even supported by genetic studies. ER Sanders "The Hamitic hyopthesis; its origin and functions in time perspecive"
Wyatt Macgaffey "Concepts of race in the Historicography of northeast Africa"
PS Zachernuk "Of Origins and Colonial Order: Southern Nigerian Historians and the 'Hamitic Hypothesis'c. 1870–1970"
N Eltringham "'Invaders who have stolen the country': The Hamitic Hypothesis, Race and the Rwandan Genocide"
and again
Mamdani "A brief history of genocide"
All of them talk about how shit this hypothesis is. How little actual backing it has. And best of all, these publications range from 1960s to the 2000s just in case you think that these hamitic hypothesis is any less shit now.
Daniel Morales
They sampled a ethiopic hunter gatherer found in a cave, that genetic cluster is distinct from the Ethio-Somali herders that subsumed them and gives the illusion of a demographic shift when we know for a fact did not occur.
The Mota genetic study also continues the sterotype of African biodiversity for continuing the obsolete notion that "black" Africans are genetically similar by using Yoruba as the sole African sample and Druze as a Eurasian sample.
They then use Mota and Neolithic Linear Pottery culture as genetic references compared to modern Ari which beyond being obsolete reaffirms exactly what I'm talking about.
That neolithic Eurasian group is the basis of West Asian genes into Europe but it is not the basis of genes found in East Africa. In the study they state these people 3k years ago brought cattle but we see in Laas Geel paintings of cattle much older than this date.
Beyond that the Eurasian reference doesn't even have lactase persistence and thus the question arises why then can we assume this supposed Eurasian people were herders of cows?
There are many holes in that study they even confessed that they incorrectly stated this "eurasian" farm people did not in fact influence the whole of Africa as they originally claimed.
You don't run know the damn study and what actually entails within it. Why are you talking about genetics if you can't even see the failures of this one and don't even know about (Hudgson)?
Ethiopians are genetically grounded within Africa and are not half Eurasian. We are not mulattos.
Also there are two of us here you blind fool.
Jacob Wright
why is this man so based?
Landon Campbell
>Also there are two of us here you blind fool. >why is this man so based? Get a room and fuck each other in the ass
Camden Wright
oh baby.
Juan Rodriguez
>man read
Bentley Campbell
literally /pol/ tier infographics
Carson Lee
Yeah I know but when I give people studies and sources they like barely scan it and then like greentext something out of context and say its wrong or propaganda.
Owen Lopez
wew
Jordan Rivera
>maghrebi >sweden
Ryder Kelly
checked based dubs
Henry Gomez
How is history education in Ethiopia anyway? It's hard to find in depth stuff on Ethiopian history in English. Is it just no one outside of Ethiopia not caring, or is Ethiopian history not heavily studied in Ethiopia as well? You guys have had your own writing system for over two thousand years, so surely something had to be written down, right?
Samuel Ortiz
holy fuck I didn't even realize. THANK YOU HIS BASED GOD
Bentley Gray
>Civilization without literacy
Who are we getting this is just a bait thread for left and right pol-tards to battle over egalitarianism with shitposting
Nolan Turner
Only North Africa is real Africa you retard, that's what the word originally meant. The shitholes south of the Sahara can call themselves Negria for all I care, this retarded Amerishit notion that only blacks are real Africans has to stop.
Jason Richardson
>Greece >Literary not white
Jose Reed
Not a single one of those civilizations was worth half a damn compared to any given eurasian civilization, or meso-american civilization. If you like them that's great, but me and most other people will never view them as being equals to the romans, the persians or the chinese.
Owen Miller
We wuz powerful empire and shit
Gavin Diaz
>Niger-Congo >Greece Was this ever posted on /int/.
Landon Myers
Meso American civilization was only relevant with the Spanish conquest.
Michael Jones
>but me and most other people will never view them as being equals to the romans, the persians or the chinese. I mean, the people living at the time did, so your opinion doesn't mean much
Anthony Miller
WE
Jason Miller
>Greece has more Congoid genes than Ethiopia
Somehow this doesn't actually surprise me.
Daniel James
Mali would have shit on the meso-americans All of those would have They at least entered the iron age, and several had gunpowder so they were significantly more advanced than any spic shits Also they had the same diseases to spread that Europeans did so there's that too
Luis Barnes
The Niger-Congo ancestry probably comes from populations that assimilated the black turkish peasant former slave population. Greece still has black Turkish speakers but most have assimilated over the generations. It's very, very minor though.
google them. Oh god there are libraries filled with just Ethiopian history and life and narratives and religion (mostly religiously related and connected to the "royal house") but it's also very much revisioned and Amharicized. Italy has a lot of works, Israel has some and I'm pretty sure Germany and Saudi Arabia does as well.
