One of the better ideas humanity has had

Schengen is an amazing concept, one of the best things that happened on the continent in the 20th century. The financial and economic matters... less so.

He only did it so he could finalise CAP

>anti democratic
>bad

Yeah, unaccountable technocracy is so much better.

>the massive boons it has made to trade
Oh you mean the giant protectionist wall across Europe that prevents other prospering countries from signing independent trade deals with economically stagnant EU countries? Yeah its totally awesome for trade.

Americans are the worst protectionists

Fuck off Schulz and Juncker

Fuck off Merkel,Schulz and Juncker

>One of the better ideas humanity has had
No.

With enough luck the brits leaving will be the force that kicks down the entire rotten structure

I'm critic of democracy, but technocratic oligarchy has all the problems of democracy without the actual checks and balances that give it a modicum of legitimacy and stability

If that had been the case I would literally be marching with pitchforks and throwing bricks at EU buildings right now.

The EU at this point is nothing but a an empire-building (in the business sense of the word) pet project for politicians from small irrelevant countries. Its literally there so losers like Juncker and Verhofstadt can have a bigger political arena to play in than they had in their own min-countries. Being president of Luxemburg isnt all that glamorous, so they try and build a new empire to rule over.

It's a lifejacket for western powers to stay relevant on the world stage and nothing more. Of course countries like britain/france/ germany could perfectly be relevant on their own but dickless politicians prefers a bureaucratic run 'union' to better pressure 3rd world countries.

The EU must be federalized. Make the countries semi autonomous states and the EU a federalized republic. Until then, it is only half assing what is necessary. There is no need for Europe to be divided as it is.

kill yourself

Europe must put Europe first if the EU is to prosper and survive

By that logic, why not make the world a big federation?

And I'm gonna rule it.

This, federal state for wholly Eurooean matters. Refugee crisis would be solved so much quicker.

I could get behind that

Yes because extreme protectionism and banker cronyism really helps the common person by keeping products artificially expensive not to mention having an undemocratic process and federal goal in mind is not in the interests of the members states nor their people

The EU exists to make it easier for big companies to make money. This is the very core of the union, it's fundamental founding principle. For anything else it is an incredibly poor tool as evidenced by the recent crises.

I really hope you aren't European. If you are you are probably from some poor shithole that just drains EU funds.

The refugee crisis wouldn't even exist if Merkel wasn't such a retarded whore.

United States of Europe when?

Over my dead body

>not even accepting your business overlords
Bad goy
Bad bad goy

Because no one but rich international businessmen cares about muh trade.

>he says while typing on an american designed computer manufactured in China with ores mined in Africa

>not wanting a United Europe.

get out.

>EU isn't a huge boon to American trade
>the EU is anti-American
When will this meme die?

yeah and prices would be cheaper without the EU corporate protectionism racket or have you forgotten industrial and agricultural subsidies plus tarrifs on non EU goods?

Hopefully never.

Yeah and they have computers in every other first world country on the planet despite the absence of the EU.

Hell they even have computers in Russia.

Not gonna happen because Brexit is thankfully probably going to happen causing a domino effect.

Did americans really that afraid being a second class world power that can't compare with might of entire unites europe?

China annexing asian Russia is more realistic than England leaving the EU.

I'm european and I'm from a pretty wealthy country with the best infrastructure for economic and technological progress in the world. I just feel like unity and supporting other people is a pretty good value.

really because even the Yougov poll is showing leave has a lead both by phone and online which I doubt most people expected from them. Couple it with leave voters are more motivated to go and vote Id say its going to be very skin of the teeth for either side without some serious vote manipulation in which case it would prove the illegitimacy of both the EU and the government

Tell that to the bookies.

Only thing the US is afraid of is the possibility that it's honey pot might cease existing.

express.co.uk/news/politics/663665/Barack-Obama-Britain-back-queue-Brexit

I am from the Netherlands.

>uniting is a new idea

The Romans did it. The Muslims did it. The Chinese did it. It works out great everytime. Until it stops working.

Circle of life.

But yes, the EU should absolutely remain. The only reason people don't want it is because of the culture meme. Even though the only real differences in all cultures is basically how people dress and style of music. and changes drastically each decade.

fuck ups always happen, no matter what system of government or how unified a region is. They're massive, complex, and imperfect. But the fuck ups that happened simply happened because they were going to happen, regardless of of the EU existed or not.

>with the best infrastructure for economic and technological progress in the world

Which is exactly why you should be against an EU federation. Because with an EU federation the bulk of decisions will be made by people from countries that are not interested in technology but agriculture. It's the same thing as old people voting on online piracy, they don't get it, and it doesn't affect them at all.

Don't give the EU domestic powers. It's that simple. Empires rise and fall naturally.

The EU has a chance to start moving Europe forward, and Europe is stagnating. You know there are only 2 things that kept Europe from becoming like the Middle East after WWII: The US and their unification during their cold war.

the EU should adhere to libertarian policies. They should try to be like the early US. Weak central government with stronger local ones.

>The EU makes it harder to exert its influence, not easier
>This is what EUtards u ironically believe

>Refugees wouldn't leave a wartorn region is Merkel didn't exist

I'm surprised you know how to read and type things.

>The Romans did it. The Muslims did it. The Chinese did it. It works out great everytime. Until it stops working.
The difference is the countries actually want to join, you fucking retard.

Harder for the US*

You already act and dress like Americans. Already watch all of our movies and listen to our music. speak our language (we're so awesome we took it from the English). We saved half of your entire continent from total collapse.

You're already American. You've been successfully Imperialized. You're welcome.

>Even though the only real differences in all cultures is basically how people dress and style of music. and changes drastically each decade.

You're an American. This isn't Kansas vs Texas. EU countries are culturally, economically and demographically very different.

You seriously think a state could 100% benefit all these different countries? No.

When Empires in the Middle Ages defeated armies, they had to win the hearts and minds of the people they conquered. Rome and China were a bit heavy handed, but the Muslim Empires were preferred by the natives.

The early US is another example.

Also, wanting to join or joining because an army invaded doesn't matter. Those empires prospered, and so did the lands under those Empires. You are focusing on events that have literally no impact on whats going on.

Sources?
Every poll I've seen gives the lead to remain

Refugees won't come if it is made clear that they will not be received. See: Australia.

Merkel made it appear that refugees were wanted in Europe (a fact that was abused by the people who arrange transfers from MENA to Europe), when in fact they were not.

Also

>all the refugees are Syrian

lmao

>EU countries are culturally very different

Not really. I've been to Europe. The only differences are superficial. Language, dress, ect. Just like everyone else on earth, they have the same family structures, want to work hard, worry about wars, like to get together and have fun. Culture is irrelevant in this case.

Also, culture between regions of the US are very different. you are confusing history for culture.

> economically

Thats why it should be put under a unified economic umbrella. The more diverse an economy is, the better.

>demographically very different.

Oh, does Eastern Europe only have 40-50 years olds, while Spain only has 1-10 year olds? Does Norway have a 3rd gender? wtf does this even mean.

>You seriously think a state could 100% benefit all these different countries? No.

Yes. Culture and demographics aren't legitimate answers and mean nothing.

Thats essentially what the EU is now, a weak confederacy binding countries together without a strong central leadership. Everytime this set up is tried, like early America you cited, it fails. That's why there's no libertarian states, its fucking retarded

>Not really. I've been to Yugoslavia. The only differences are superficial. Language, dress, ect. Just like everyone else on earth, they have the same family structures, want to work hard, worry about wars, like to get together and have fun. Culture is irrelevant in this case.

>See: Australia.

Refugee loses everything in war. "Hey, we can walk to another country, or take a boat there. Let's go all the fucking way to Australia!"

You are fucking retarded. Lebanon has more refugees than anyone else and it's been bombed every few years by some Jews from Europe.

>Merkel made it appear that refugees were wanted in Europe (a fact that was abused by the people who arrange transfers from MENA to Europe), when in fact they were not.

No, she took in refugees because she's not a monsterous greedy psychopath like the Gulf Arab states who started the wars and fund ISIS, and take ZERO refugees. I guess you must love Saudi Arabia, you certainly agree with all of their policies.

Also, Europe needs some non-Europeans. European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism. Europe is one economic crisis away from another holocaust and World War.

>>all the refugees are Syrian

Wtf does this have to do with anything? did you stroke out for second?

>like early America you cited, it fails.

But America became a dominant world power without even needing to colonize.

So did the Romans while they had this system.

So did the Muslims.

So did the Germans.

I've been to Yugoslavia.

wars happen. They didn't happen because of culture or demographics. They happened because of influences from the USSR, history under the Ottomans, and politic events.

Germans use to be at constant war with each other. Same with the people of Great Britain.

>Hey guys look, war happened one time, it must have happened because of the stupid reason I said, instead of the natural ebb and flow of Empires.

I'm happy European governments ignore people like you. You have no idea what you are talking about.

yougov.co.uk/news/2016/02/24/yougov-view-eu-referendum-polling/

then they changed the criteria because you gov didnt like the answer

People lack basic Empathy these days, there is no point in trying to compromise.

Holy hell. Why do you bother? You're not European, have visited some tourist hot spots and haven't been in every European country. With that out of the way let's get down to your post:

You start with

>The only differences are superficial

and follow up with

>Language

Seriously? Language differences are superficial? Not all European people are keen on speaking English not to mention trying to build up a system where everyone would get their services 100% with their own mother tongue.

>Just like everyone else on earth, they have the same family structures

False. Europe is strongly divided between the South and the North when it comes to family. Just look at the European welfare state models. We value different thing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_social_model#Welfare_state_in_Europe

>Thats why it should be put under a unified economic umbrella. The more diverse an economy is, the better.

Refer to my previous post: EU hasn't been able and won't be able to serve the Economic models of all the nations in the EU without someone getting the short end of the stick. The short end of the stick would come to Eastern and Northern Europe, who have economic models and systems vastly different from the big 3 which would be calling the shots.

>Oh, does Eastern Europe only have 40-50 years olds, while Spain only has 1-10 year olds? Does Norway have a 3rd gender? wtf does this even mean.

Strawman. Demographically i mainly meant population. This ties with the point about economics.

You do underestimate the cultural differences between Europeans. It's just that these differences between ideology, lifestyle and opinions have not come under test. Some countries are more conservative, some more progressive. Others are more liberal and others more authoritan.

There is no way a satisfactory solution would be reached when creating the EU state democratically. It could only be forced. The negotiations would fall off at the language question.

>I've been to Europe. The only differences are superficial
That's why trying to start a business in Calabria, Italy would go exactly it would in Bergen, Norway.

Here are some others:

>model of minimum wage
Nordic or continental model?
>consumer regulation
Wine isn't allowed to be sold in stores in Finland and Sweden. In Sweden you can only buy 3,5% beer in stores. How do you imagine this would fly over in Spain or France?
>guns
Tires are a deadly weapon, regards the British.
>form of welfare
The nordic, the continental or the Southern? How much welfare? This varies so much between cultures.
>taxation
How much?
>workers rights
Acceptable work hours etc
>employers rights
What does the employer need to give the worker for example.
>workers unions
Good or bad?
>Religion or no religion?
>Gay marriage?
>Trans rights
>Refugees or no refugees?

The EU would be an union dominated by the cultures and ideologies of the Germans and the French - and those who think alike to them. The others have only to lose.

Yugoslavia collapsed because serbs were the dominant demographic. The other states wanted nothing to do with serbs.

The EU parliament in it's current state is dominated by France, Britain and Germany. Some EU countries are already having trouble with this.

express.co.uk/news/politics/638925/Poland-Bulgaria-EU-membership-Lord-Ashcroft-study-Brexit

>Wtf does this have to do with anything? did you stroke out for second?

Very funny. You talk so much about war, that was my point. Not all refugees are from Syria which is a warzone.

>You are fucking retarded. Lebanon has more refugees than anyone else

You say i'm retarded than agree with my point. MOST OF THE SYRIANS ARE IN ME, BECAUSE THEY ARE FLEEING WAR. MOST OF THE REFUGEES COMING TO EUROPE WILL PASS BY SAFE COUNTRIES BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FLEEING A WAR.

The majority of the refugees coming into my country are not Syrian, but are from countries where if they applied legally they would not have been refugee status.

>No, she took in refugees because...

I never stated why she took refugees in. I stated that she made it appear that they were wanted by the Europeans. Which is not at all true.

But hey, continue on feeling smug about how right you are. Go on.

>Also, Europe needs some non-Europeans. European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism. Europe is one economic crisis away from another holocaust and World War.

EU is far more multicultural than any other nation/union on Earth. Also you know nothing of the political climate in Europe. Absolutely nothing. Most Europeans are pissed off at both sides, the far-left and far-right shit flinging.

Fuck off. You are clearly willingly misinterpetring me so that you can remain in your hugbox where everyone who disagrees with you is the new hitler.

>Not really. I've been to Europe. The only differences are superficial. Language

ayy

>Nations can't trade with each other unless they are controlled by a super-state!

I'll just analyze this a bit more, since it is so pants out retarded.

>European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism. Europe is one economic crisis away from another holocaust and World War.

>European culture needs exposure to other cultures

No. If you want to live in Europe, you learn the language and adjust your way of life so that it works within European cultures. Sure you can wear the Burqa, but don't expect that you're allowed to wear it into a bank or force your daughters to wear the Burqa. If you come to the Nordic Countries you have to accept that your children will be influenced by secular ideology.
No one shall be treated unequally, reads in the constitutions of all European countries. The same applies to you. You will not be given special privileges because your religion demands it

>European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism.

First of all, for the majority of European countries the European period of nationalism was good. Most European countries are independent because of nationalism. It was only the Germans who took ethnic (underline the ethnic part). So don't think you can just wave the word nationalism around like it's somehow evil unto itself. You need to explain why it is bad, and differentiate between the types of nationalism you are talking about.

> Europe is one economic crisis away from another holocaust and World War.

Okay, show me one party or one politically significant group advocating war between European states and mass genocide.

>EU is far more multicultural than any other nation/union on Earth.

True, some African countries might have many different tribes. But the EU is very multicultural. Every country in the EU has its own culture and those countries all have regional cultures, subcultures and minority cultures.

>minor fuckups

>greek pensioners eating grass to survive
>let a million undocumented migrants in for no reason at all
>help overthrow Ukrainian government and precipitate the Ukrainian War

>minor fuckups

>Not really. I've been to Europe. The only differences are superficial. Language, dress, ect. Just like everyone else on earth, they have the same family structures, want to work hard, worry about wars, like to get together and have fun. Culture is irrelevant in this case.
How delusional are you?

>European culture needs exposure to other cultures, because you continent is starting to radicalize again with nationalism.
Europe is radicalising with nationalism because of exposure to other cultures. Adding more immigrants is like throwing petrol on the embers.

Landverraders please go

For real, yo. I'm not saying EU isn't multicultural but then you have countries like Indonesia and India.

>Not really. I've been to Europe

I've been to the USA, now let me tell you how to run your country. Or wait even better, let me tell you how to rule your entire continent.

EU as whole is very multicultural. Individual EU countries are not.

White Unified European Continent? How can Asia and America even compare.

If the centre get it's way they will be.

>White

Have you been to Paris or London recently?

>1% ahead with some 20% undecided

The US has the same shit as far as politics goes, you know? And the country stays unified just fine.

staying something is very different from becoming something. Your unification was wrought by war.

One war in nearly 250 years plus a few minor insurrections. It's not that much, really.

So the EU should unify by war? because its citizens dont desire unification.

Why not. Europe needs a good war nowadays anyway

Been to Venice ;) fucking Germanic polluted genes

>One of the better ideas humanity has had.
Agreed. Too bad it's also one of the worst implementations.

I don't give a shit about western delusions, but don't force us along. The moment EU federalizes, I'm seeking political asylum in Russia(and this is coming from an anti-Russian country national).

The United States was a state built on ideals.

European countries are already built on ideals.

Unified EU would not be built on new ideals, but trying to be a compromise between dozens of different ideals which is nearly impossible to do democratically. Of course you could militarily force a union, but that's not nice now is it.

A more closer comparison would be the U.S and Sweden trying to become one country with both countries agreeing democratically. Not just possible.

The Venice area is not germanized at all tho. If they looked white to you, it's because the italic stock is white.

I'm really amazed at how many people don't realise this. Big companies lobby for EU regulation completely because it kills small business that can't afford to have compliance departments, completely unaccountably. And TTIP couldn't exist without it.