Byzantine Empire or Ottoman Emipre

You're fucking deluded m8, I'm from the UK and I too did not know who the fucking Byzantines were until I played autist games. Turks, well everyone knows who the Turks are. Their country is still fucking there. I've watched Baron Munchausen. Meanwhile Greece doesnt go around calling itself "Byzantine."

Ottomans of course, the Byzantines were a sad ruin of a greater civilization, and it was always waiting for a greater power to put it out of its misery.

you are retarded, that's true what he says, Byzantines are almost unknown to most of people, maybe in the Balkan Peninsula they know about it, but still even there Ottoman Empire is more recognized
The only form of "influence" of the Byzantines is their fall. That clearly shows how useless they fucking where.

But the Turks do not go around calling themselves 'Ottomans' and everybody knows who Greeks are.

What is your point?

>and it was always waiting for a greater power to put it out of its misery.

1,000 years.
That is a long time to wait for somebody better to come along.

They both almost have no influence on our current life unless youre a goatfucker or a balkan retard!

>historical influence = modern fame

Are you fucking retarded or something?

Ottoman probably,most of the ottoman influence was on the middle east and other islamic countries,they started the whole crescent moon being the symbol of islam thing and some of their titles and attire spread to other countries like the fez and so on.

Too be honest, Byzantine Empire laid foundation for all the Orthodox cultural sphere, it's influence in the West may be debatable but the Ottomans themselves kept copying the Byzantine architecture for centuries...

guess where the symbol comes from

...

They even failed at failing. Jesus Christ what a sad fucking """empire""".

Make
Byzantine/Rome
Great
Again
>Byzantine is Greece meme
Also, Turks don't go calling themselves Ottomans either.

The first time I even heard of the Byzantine empire was playing Medieval 2 back in 2008.

>ITT T*rkroach bonanza part II BYZANTINE BOGALOO

>>Byzantine is Greece meme
Nigger, the country's main objective since its independence was to reclaim Constantinople. Look up Megali Idea

Nobody hears a shit about the byzies unless they actually study history or play historical games in those periods but the ottomans on the other hand were known as the great enemy by a large part of europe.

There was no such a thing as "Byzantine" Empire. It is the Roman Empire. The term was invented by some G*rmanic savage who claimed that they wuz Romanz 'n shiet.

So yeah, the "Byzantine" Empire had more influence, in fact it had more influence than pretty much any other country in existance.

>Roman Empire
>not owning Rome
as "Roman" as HRE
it will never happen

The Roman Empire transferred their capital to Constantinople. "Roman" is just a name. Before the term "Byzantine" was made up, everyone referred to "Byzantine Empire" as the Roman Empire.

bullshit, they called it the kingdom of greece

Of course kebabs aren't Turkish, Iranians invented them about 2000 years before the Ottoman Empire even existed.

I've been listening to The History of Rome and I know that someone continued the podcast for the History of Byzantium, but can anyone rec a book that covers the eastern empire from the fall of the western empire to the fall of constantinople in pretty good depth?

Byzantium. It was a superpower from its founding right up to 1204 seven hundred years later and was pretty much the cultural hegemon of its age. The Ottomans on the other hand were only important for 200 years and precipitated cultural stagnation that much of the middle east and the Balkans have failed to recover from even now.

The very word "byzantine" means bullshit bureaucracy, complex to the point of impotence.

Turk here. More influential would certainly be the Ottomans.

The Byzantine Empire was drifting more and more away from the Roman Empire that came before it. The Byzantines had a different language and practiced a different form of Christianity. Compared to the rest of Europe and its Roman heritage, they were different and other - hence maybe why we make the distinction in the first place.

The Ottoman Empire on the other hand was a spectacular case of the East meeting the West. The Ottoman Empire was also a caliphate and therefore was THE important power in the Muslim world for centuries. Not to mention that part of the world is currently more shaped by its Ottoman past than its Byzantine past.

Anatolia and the surrounding land has been ruled by many different empires, kingdoms and peoples in the past. The Byzantines are now a part of history - and their history is one which is related to but different than continental Europe. Perhaps, today, two of the closest distant relatives to what the Byzantines were would be Russia and Greece - you can see for yourself how close these two countries feel to the rest of Europe.

What did the Ottomans do that was so much different than the Byzantines?

Definitely Byzantine Empire but I am a Turkish Byzantine , so there is a little bias there.

I take Byzantine Empire from Constantine 1st to 11th. Mere act of conversion of Constantine is enough to show how influential the Empire was. Too many what ifs belong to it Had Empire remained pagan, had it managed to hold on to the Justinian conquests, had it managed to convert turks to Christianity (something Alexius was trying) the world would be a very different place.

Ottomans while a great empire, did not influenced the history on its own, the cutting of eastern trade could be done by any other nation. Its rise and shine was very brief and basically for the last 300-350 years it was just a bumpy road of decline and fall.

ERE wins by religion. There was a really high possibiltiy of not adopting Christianity, Ottomans, even if they were converted to orthodoxy wouldn't influence the world in general that much. Except for Turkey. Erdoğan talking about raising a Christian generation and becoming next Constantine or something.

Depends.
Byzantine is the Eastern Roman Empire, which everyone can agree that Rome > Ottoman in influence and importance.
But you could also consider Byzantine a separate entity from Rome, in which case Ottoman > Byzantine.

Byzantine. They had great scholars and artists.

Ottoman Empire / Turkey never accomplished anything of note.

>the cutting of eastern trade could be done by any other nation
Which is what the Byzantine Empire did. Anatolia is really good property.
Both empires got nice and wealthy, made some nice art and architecture, were powerful militarily but still suffered a slow, painful death.

Byzantine's early history is of course important to Christianity as a religion, it essentially introduced it to Europe. But that was before the Catholic church, which pretty much shaped Europe for as long as the Byzantine Empire existed. Don't forget Constantinople was sacked by crusading warriors.

Meanwhile you're undermining the influence the left on the land by the Ottomans. As far as religion goes, they were the last caliphate in the Muslim world.

Last time I checked there was a group called ISIS obsessed with that idea. There isn't a terrorist death cult urging the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople to unite with Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria to destroy the Muslim hordes. So which is more influential?

Byzantines
>created codified law
>defended Europe
>Built Hagia Sophia
>fell in a blaze of glory
>byzantine scholars played a role in starting the renaissance
>Several based emperors
Ottomans
>invented kebabs
>stole shit from byzantines
>greatest architectural work is slapping minarets on a building someone else built
>meme emperors
>fell with the signing of a few papers

Nice, but you forgot to add Successor of Rome to Byzantines.

>Turkish Byzantine

>Ottomans
>invented kebabs

> mfw people say the byzantines weren't culturally influential

kek

this.

they didn't even invent kebabs

ISIS doesn't recognize the legitimacy of any Caliphate since the Rashiduns.

The Ottomans would have represented the greatest evil ever to ISIS.

I don't think I fully understand.

He's saying that Russia as it exists today wouldn't be without Byzantium. I would argue that that's true of all Europe east of Poland. They are why the slavs use cyrillic script, the reason many slavs are orthodox, a major influence on east slavic culture, and even caused Russia to consider itself the new Rome, which is why the emperors are called czars(caesar).

If ISIS thinks this then why do they include former Ottoman land in their desired territory map?

Because ISIS believes all land is their land. The Caliphate has no borders, only front lines.

Their first priority is to secure all regions with Muslims, so that they can kill the apostates before marching on Rome.

In all honesty it's the Ottoman Empire that everyone knows about and that exists in the public consciousness as a powerful empire that recently fell from power, leaving the Mideast a fractured mess. Their role in WWI, the Armenian genocide, the nascent stage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, and the emerging Middle East conflict made them relevant for us today.

The Byzantine Empire is too obscure for most people today to know about, unless they're butthurt Balkanshits. Even the word "byzantine" in the English language means a "mess of bureaucracy, red tape, and impotence". Not a good sign.

The conflation state of public awareness of the Byzantine Empire is a result of the fact that it occupied territory controlled by the Ottomans (limited access and discouragement of referencing their conquered foe) and the fact that German scholarship completely trashed the Byzantines because of >H>R>E pride vs. the ERE.

Doesn't really matter what ISIS thinks, the point is that the empire once held enormous power.

The greentext version of those cherrypicked "x country vs y country" pictures

No, the point is that he claimed the Ottoman Empire was somehow a progenitor or influence on the formation of ISIS. That is false.

The Ottoman 'influence' on the creation of ISIS or any of the current mess in the Middle-East is very small. It essentially starts and ends with the dissolution of the Empire and the partitioning of their territory by the French and British.

But even then, it has next to no barring on ISIS in any way. ISIS follows the truest form of Islam and view Turkish Muslims as apostates by default for not waging endless war on the world in the name of Allah.

doner was invented by turkish immigrants into berlin

And "ottoman" means a comfy and relaxing piece of furniture.
It's obvious which provides a more pleasant image.

>mfw most of that is populated with moose, bears, and siberian shamans

I don't know a lot about the heritage of the Ottoman Empire but you seem to understate the influence the Eastern Romans had on western culture.
While their contemporary literature didn't field much else than copying religious doctrines, they also did transmit a whole bunch of Greek classics to us westerners, which kick-started the Renaissance and much of the subsequent intellectual work, which in turn established modernity, etc. etc.
On top of that, they were a major military influence for a thousand years in all of the neighboring regions but also as far as Arabia where Muhammad was born.
Of course, my first point only matters for western culture, as the question is obviously stupid af. Ottomans most likely were more influential in their own historical zone of political outreach, and the same goes for the Eastern Romans. Maybe I'm putting too much thought into this but I thought it was wrong to admit that they weren't linked to Europeans. They in fact were the link between barbarian Europe and their own western tradition: the great philosophers are considered the very foundation of this tradition of intellectual apprehension.

I didn't say anything about doner kebabs, I said kebab in general.

Ottomans, Byzantines were big for a few centuries and only converted eastern Europeans. There biggest influence that is significant is that they kept ancient learning alive and influenced the Renaissance. Ottomans at least have a successor state, influenced islamic culture by making turkish relevant for example, and was the face of Islam to Europe pretty much 1600 and on.

ottomans terrorized europe for hundreds of years, what the fuck did the corpse of the roman empire do?

The Near East was largely Christian for centuries until Islam. The Byzantine Empire's religious influence isn't limited to the Balkans.

This is sub-/pol/ levels of stupidity lmao

Theres a reason its called the dark ages :^)

>ISIS doesn't recognize the legitimacy of any Caliphate since the Rashiduns.

Is it autism?

I don't know, you could argue both ways.

Byzzies did define the Orthodox sphere as some other guy in the thread said, and they also codified the laws and law standards that most of the world bases their legal systems off of. They may not be publicly known very well, but they have affected the world in a very large scale.

The Ottomans though did diffuse their culture throughout the Middle East, strengthened the hold of Islam, kickstarted the exploration to the new world, and kept Europe on its toes for centuries.

wat

ISTANBUL NOT CONSTANTINOPLE

I'd say the Byzantines. It was largely their preservation of the Greek classics that led to the Islamic Golden Age, as the Abbasid Caliph established the House of Wisdom to translate Greek text which he'd stolen/bought from the Byzantines.

The collapse of Byzantium also contributed to the Italian Renaissance, as Byzantine scholars fled the shattered empire with their libraries of books and started teaching Italians how to read Greek.

greece is the core part of past byzantium.they were romans by law,citizenship and religion.at least until 1204

fuck off mateb8

Uhm... Haters aside ottoman empire was the leading cause of ww1 and therefore ww2 and therefore the cold war.

Literally apart from giving way to the ottoman empire how does byzantium affect you today in any given shape or form?

And someones gonna say
>b-but muh franz ferdinand!
Ww1 was gonna happen whether he lived or died. It was the ottomans empires last dying grasp on europe that catalyzed ww1

Spotted the Jew

Man Veeky Forums has really gone to shit lately.

All the college students are out having fun at the beach and the only ones left are the friendless ugly /pol/acks

How? The Balkan wars? The Italo-Turkish war? I'm trying my hardest to decipher what the fuck you're trying to say but I'm coming up blank

Pretty much this.
Byzantium wasn't more than a regional power after 800 ad, they were outmatched in sciences by desert dwellers and the whole momentum of the christian world was in the west.

Most definitely the byzantines, but mostly for their influence on christianity and the spread of it, they also unintentionally caused the papacy to become the powerful force that it was
Much of arab culture also takes from the culture that was present in the ERE, the 'souk' came to be in pre-Islamic late antiquity for example
Don't forget Justinian's code either, VERY influential, much more so than Suleiman's

The Decline of the Ottoman Empire allowed Austria-Hungary to spread it's influence in Bosnia which upset the ballance between the Great Powers in that Region (Austria Hungary, Russia, & The Ottoman Empire) If the Ottoman Empire was stronger Bosnia would have stayed firmly under Ottoman control. Which would have prevented a rift between Austria-Hungary & Bosnian-Serbs. Making an Assassination attempt on the Heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria in Sarajevo, Bosnia In 1914 extremely unlikely.

>that caption

>CAPATCHA
>420
Not yet but I understand, CAPATCHA.

the romaboos in this thread are being really fucking annoying.

I know we all hate the ottoman empire but the question is WHICH ONE WAS MORE INFLUENTIAL.

Being the leading cause of ww1 (thus ww2, cold war, space race, western occupation of the middle east then finally counter insurgency that is still being fought TODAY) literally makes the ottoman empire by definition, INFLUENTIAL.

>we all hate the ottoman empire
[spoiler]i don't[/spoiler]

You're so dumb

You are joking right? How the Byzantines were any more of a superpower than this?

The decline of the Byzantine Empire allowed the Ottomans to spread their influence in Bosnia.

> Byzantine Empire is the cause for the Cold War by your logic.
> your logic
> logic

which was caused by the ottomans?

are you fucking stupid?

Lmao at reading this thread

Romaboos really are retarded.

>Byzantium wasn't more than a regional power after 800 ad

Pray tell me which nations was the "global" power then? Well?

Great, global, regional etc powers are new concepts.

Every power was a regional power back then.

>It was the ottomans empires last dying grasp on europe that catalyzed ww1

Historical catalysts are a rabbit hole that is not worth going down to. You could trace it all back to Byzantium and say it was Byzantium who caused World War 1.

They were rich as fuck, Constantinople was the financial and cultural capital of the (relevant) fucking world.

They were lightyears ahead in technology from the smelly germanic barbarians for centuries. They fielded professional armies unseen anywhere else at that period.

They culturally dominated all the neighboring rules that basically swore nominal fealty to the Emperor just for the privilege of being considered "Roman" that the Byzantines were more than happy to give in form of some obscure court title that the dumb barbarians just loved even though they probably didn't know what the fuck it even meant.

Italy >> all the Ottoman Lands in Sand-nigeria

That's why

politically, ottomans
culturally, byzantium

The Ottomans had a greater impact on world history.

In the West, Byzantium. In the Arab world, the Ottomans.

In terms of influence? Byzantines, definitely.
In terms of greatness/militarily? Ottomans.

Honestly, as a self-professed Byzaboo, I'm going to have to say Ottomans.

Their domination of Eastern trade and the incentive this provided Euros to seek out new trade routes would radically alter the course of history in the centuries succeeding it. Plus as others have said, their impact on the rise of nationalism in the Middle East and the clusterfuck that it is today is very important.

All the good stuff stems from Byzantium.
All the band stuff has it's roots in the Ottoman Empire.

Ask on the street which one is more known I bet the first thing you would hear in both is the ottoman empire.

Which street?