Has anyone here done any in depth research on supposedly non-binary gender systems from the Americas, India...

Designated Shitter here.

Ask me anything you want on Hijras

> Hijras for example are from what I can tell regarded as freaks who frequently could only survive as prostitutes
Kinda true. They also dance on auspicious locations to bring luck to the family, and beg on public transportation.

Hijras can either be hermaphrodites or transsexuals.

Nothing is lower than a Hijra in Indian society, and that really means something.

Its an interesting topic OP. clearly most societies see these kind of people as degenerate.

This recent trend about digging up historical bits about tranny shit is revisionism of the highest orders. See Elagabalus, tranny advocates bring him up as if Romans were so progressive they had a tranny emperor, completely ignoring that the whole empire hated him and he got murdered by his own guards.

Is it true that they show up to weddings and other social gatherings and essentially try to extort gifts or money with the threat of not going away if they're not paid?

I don't think they're degenerate. I understand the scientific propagation of a species to be an integral part of its existence. Things are born, they acquire data, they pass on data to progeny. If you're not part of this natural progression, you're peripheral to the greater scope and there's some kind of damage going on which would ordinarily make you and evolutionary end. It means they're "ill", but they're still humans to be treated as humans, as retards or autistic people. It's not something to be championed specifically or protected any more than a given kind, bright person might champion people with Down Syndrome.

"Extort" would be a little heavy, I guess you could say that they do try to coerce the families. The blessings and curses of the hijra are thought to have great potency.

Even on public transport they try and embarrass male passengers into coughing up money by rubbing against them or making lewd innuendos. In weddings they also bring a couple of percussionists to play out the beats.

Same is true about faggots.

lol from what I remember the Senate the entire time was like "There's no way we can allow this little faggot to sit in Rome."

No

Regards and autists are also degenerate

Wanna know how I know this is bullshit? I am half navajo and although I grew up on another reservation I know the Navajo Rez is homophobic and transphobic as fuck and many of us run away to Tuscon, Phoenix, L.A. or S.F. because of it.

In the past we were honored but not so much today, the only people who were in any way decent were the extremely old school sheep herding, Hogan living elders who weren't completely broken down by the missionary schools.

Working with other former tribal communities along the pacific rim what you read in the books or videos and what it's actually like are two different things. The disparity varying though, but never the same.

Also we did not call ourselves two spirit until quite recently, it's not common parlance.
Don't ever fucking say berdache.
Juhitan is a town in Oaxaca, you may be referring to Muxe.
Machi is completely different than non-binary gender identity.
Travesti isn't necessarily nonbinary, it actually is case by case since many still identity as men or as women.
They are gaining legal support though, it's getting better again

No not exactly. In societies where polygyny occurs and/or were children are orphaned and/or where children leave their parents after marriage the function of non-reproducing adults becomes apparent.

Given also the spiritual aspects often interwoven in performative gender transgression to say their function isn't also one of reinforcing the gender binary and the social structure of their society is something that most be recognized.

>it's getting better again
No, not really. I mean, Pakistan now has other in addition to male and female on government forms, other than that there's been nothing.

Various south Indian states had given third gender options in forms and ids before the Indian government fully recovered third gender people but even then programs like
reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YO0UL?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Are happening now along with non-sex work non-profit jobs slowly changing the employment and living standard of third gender Indians.

Change has been coming, I was literally at a conference last year with a group of hijra delegates talking about the shift these past few years.

I see, I was unaware of all of that.

You should go around and announce this in every thread with a subject that doesn't interest you.

Maybe get a tripcode too, your opinion matters.

It's cool, it's not like this is the type of stuff most people read daily.

Now that I think of it, I remember reading this:

idiva.com/opinion-work-life/madhu-kinnar-becomes-first-eunuch-transgender-to-get-elected-as-mayor-in-chattisgarh/34240

>Hijras for example are from what I can tell regarded as freaks who frequently could only survive as prostitutes

So are travestis. Brazilian here.

>look up travesti
>no information, just porn
Fucking Brazilians

Dude go on Google Books but please ignore Travesti the book.

Brazil has a long history of third genders Manicongo was a royal KiKongo was was enslaved and was brought to trial by the inquisition for displaying non-heteronormative behavior.

That's not a long history. Those are two cases.

The oldest recording of gender variance was in the 1700's, it's related to the gender variance that remains in Candomble and Umbanda that still exists in Travesti communities.

What are your sources, and why is this at all significant? This whole thread reads like a tumblr girl who has never left the American East Coast.

The candomble, Santeria and vodoun community has gender transgressive acts, rituals and participants.

Idk what to tell you, it's something quite common in knowledge for anyone who actually looks.

Oh and Francisco Manicongo the oldest known African transvesti is from the late 16th not 17th

Travesti is the literal word for cross dresser in Brazil. Not necessarily trans or trap though

>it's something quite common in knowledge for anyone who actually looks.
My question was how it is significant. What are you trying to demonstrate by doing this research? What is your goal? Or are you just pissing into a void?

You said it wasn't a long history but it in fact is given that it's post-Columbian Brazil in the early colonial period.

Your understanding of sexual mores in Brazil has been disputed ITT.
I ask you again: why are you researching non-binary genders?

>South East Asia

Thai bro here.

Everyone knows about our katoey (ladyboys)and dtom (females who live as males and take testosterone).

What they don't know is many grow out it. It's very common between ages 13-45. Not common at all after that.

Katoey, historically, go back at least 300 years. We have records of them serving in the king's court.

They are thought of as being different from "gays." Gay men are seen as normal---you see them in all areas of society and work. Katoey do not have many prominent jobs (although there is a mayor of a small town in the north that is katoey).

No one is frightened of them, but they are the butt of many jokes.

They haven't been disputed at all. Someone thought Hijra weren't improving in governmental support but didn't know the Indian supreme court recognized them last year as a third gender, they then showed one hijra has become mayor.

That's it.

I'm not merely "studying" I work with gender variant communities and I have the opportunity to work with international activists and leaders around the world on panels and conferences regarding our lot.
Kathoey is one of those "tricky" terms that don't fit into western ideas of gender and sexuality being different.

It's performative being related to effeminancy with a culturally coded typical response in the culturally prevailing archetype. Some go on to just wearing "womens" clothing, some go on hormones and may or may not wear such clothing, some stop wearing such clothing and live as gay men. Not all gay men are perceived as kathoey or enter that archetype because not all are effeminate.

Thailand is still a sexist society, they don't have legal support in gender affirming markers in documentation or bathroom usage but I think that's also related to particular beliefs surrounding why they are the way they are + the sexist notion of someone deemed man "lowering" themselves to that of women.

>Not all gay men are perceived as kathoey

Literally none of them are. You don't really know what you are talking about.

>Thailand is still a sexist society

Gay marriages happen here all the time, you idiot. They are on the evening news, and in the newspapers. They aren't legally binding, but NO ONE CARES because they have all the rights any other couple has (hospital privileges, etc). It an absolute non-issue.

>I think that's also related to particular beliefs surrounding why they are the way they are

That's Thai Buddhism. I'm friends and neighbors with a number of katoey. They are Buddhist. They personally believe that their past negative karmic actions caused them to be born in the wrong body. They go to temple, just like everyone else.

You outsider academics love to throw around words like "sexist" and "racist," when in reality it's just your own bias.

Does this ladyboy actually thinks caking up the makeup like this is attractive?

I'm not an academic, I work with transgender people around the world to further the rights of trans people including Thai laws that inhibit trans women from using female bathrooms and changing gender markers or even after srs being required to go into all male prisons not even mentioning employment discrimination which are actually an issue with Thai trans activists, leaders and people speak about.

It's sexist and trans phobic and trans Thai women care about it.

That's a girl. I just wanted to b8 OP.

>Has anyone here done any in depth research on supposedly non-binary gender systems from the Americas, India, and Southeast Asia? Is it accurate to call them significant deviations from the masculine/feminine societal norms in the west?

This is true but many people forget to speak on the fact that each organization of pronouns in cultures base their separation on different elements. It really isn't compatible to the west as the west has its own understanding of it.

>kathoey
>not having a western definition
What is a trap you cucks

Traps are boys who dress like women but still see themselves as boys without the religious and cultural context of Thai Buddhism, third genderism nor Transexuality.

The bathroom issue has been on the news lately, here. But once again, it's a non-issue in most places. At my work (a large university in BKK) katoey only use the girls bathroom. It's a non issue. You'd know that if you had any clue what was going on here.

Dtoms don't use the boys room, though, and they wouldn't fucking want to if given the option.

Of all the places on earth to call transphobic, you picked the wrong country. Holy shit, your ignorance is unbelievable. We're one of the few places in the world that doesn't give a shit.

Anyone whining about it is just bitching.

>employment discrimination

Yeah. Employment here is 100% based on who you know and what you look like. Just like everywhere else that isn't a call-center or factory job. Look at pic related, that lady is not getting a fucking job as a receptionist. That's just the way reality works, in all countries.

How many trans women are outside of your university?

stop ignoring the discrimination and transphobia trans women in Thailand face, your idea that all is well is false.

You are not trans.

youtu.be/171phOukKAM
youtu.be/A0Uytyegx6w

>judging my character

>judging my culture

>not facing the facts from a local

wew

I listen to the people actually affected by transphobia in Thai society rather than rely on some dude who claims to be thai on an anonymous image board who has no clue what it's like to be transgender anywhere.

Transgender local thais trump you.

See! It's this shit here!
Thailand has a vibrant tranny culture where they're neither persecuted by weirdos or praised as heroes deserving the Congressional Medal of Honor by sjws. Westeners and specifically Americans are so goddamn butthurt about everything like bathrooms and all that, so annoying on both sides. I guess it's autism that comes from being mostly of German descent or something.

Kill yourself tranny fuck

Is your image suppose to be an example of a non-binary gendered person? Because that's quite clearly a mix of the two sides of the spectrum and can't really be considered non-binary. Something non-binary would need to completely rid themselves of any form of cultural masculinity/femininity, and that just doesn't happen.

Thai trans people are literally talking about discrimination and you're ignoring it to fit your agenda.

My viewpoints come from trans Thai people I work with who are fighting for equality and personal freedom.

> I work with transgender people around the world to further the rights of trans people including

That's not how non-binary identity "works"

Bro, I'm a South American from a place ruined by commies and you have no idea how many times busybody do-gooder, ideologically blinded American SJWs try to tell me bullshit about my country. They refuse to be wrong too because their sacred ideology of being butthurt about everything doesn't allow for rational discussion. They're the most racist people I've ever met, their entire worldview is based on rigid stereotypes that cannot be challenged.

Hope they all get nail bombed

Nope. I get paid to travel to different cities and countries doing what I love, supporting people like me gain the right to be treated as equals.

Can't bet that.

>I work with transgender people around the world to further the rights of trans people
Nice, how did you get started?

Stop ignoring trans people saying things are not okay when a non trans person says everything is fine.

Isn't the fact that these societies place religious value on these people more evidence for the nurture argument as opposed to the nature argument?

You aren't people

...

So in gender-theory for something to be outside of the spectrum it needs to be made up of both sides of the spectrum? If anything "non-binary" individuals are more binary-gendered than "binary" individuals.

I'm Thai. I'm gay. I'm a male.

And you are a person that thinks a sensationalist youtube video of 6 people complaining is more real than real life.

Get your feet on the ground here and you'll quickly see the truth.

pic related. It's the national women's soccer team. Everyone loves them, no one cares that they dress up like men.

Advocacy work for Native American trans people, public speaking skills, support of older trans leaders and a good college education after a lot of discrimination/marginalization as a trans youth.
Gay men aren't transwomen and are treated differently as you already stated here you said gay men are seen as normal and trans are not and made the butt of jokes. Gay men have all sorts of integration and transwomen don't.

You admitted it.
You still don't get it, I suggest if you're really interested in understanding to google it.

Fuck off redskin freak

Right? I'm trying to point out to this SJW user there is literally no problem here, but they REALLY want the persecution to be real.

And that youtube vid they posted is hilarious. It's simply a few individuals trying to get attention, not a national phobia. Holy fuck.

A just went to 7-11, and a ladyboy sold me my snacks. Another one I know carries an alms bowl for the monks in the morning. NO ONE CARES. But this fucking SJW can't believe it!

Did you not state here they are made fun of, not seen as normal and are not integrated like gay men.

Nigger they are not normal, and """"""""""""""""""""""""people"""""""""""""""""""""" like yourself deserve to be made fun of
The only place you should be integrated is within a hold in the ground

Someone's triggered

The point of that post is that no one cares what you wear, and that these women (who live as men) are in the national spotlight.

You seem totally incapable of understanding that. I don't get it. Why am I even trying to convince you....

Enjoy the crusade, idiot.

TRIGGERED

Except they clearly do given a simple google each can lead to dozens of videos and articles by trans women in Thailand discussing the very discrimination you stated earlier that gay men like yourself do not experience.

I'm Yes, made fun of. But that's because they are men wearing women's clothing, and that's funny. I wish you could understand. We love our katoey.

I'm going to stop replying now. Good luck.

That's enough sitting faggot
Nobody cares about your meme crusade to get the mentally ill labeled "normal" in shitty 3rd world countries

Yet they do not have the same opportunities gay men have like you said. they clearly are not loved if they talk about rampant discrimination on a number of platforms on and off line.

Clearly the differences stated by you and by Thai trans women agree on their mistreatment and disrespect.

You're wrong that's okay, listen to Thai trans people.

Why bother

You know what i find retarded?
That sjw sociologists are trying to warp and hammer stuff into their western parlace. No, in 99% of cases they are not special snowflake non-binary exoti-sexual forms, they are regular cross-dressers, either for regular/ritualistic/because there is no man/woman around to fulfill a certain role. Also flamboyant gay people. Simple and concise. No "muh snowflake gender"

They're all fags.

As a someone who is Native American and coming from a culture that traditional included third gender people the "hammering" of western gender ideologies is merely one aspect of an overall westernization of the world.

It cant necessarily be stopped at this point, there is no going back but what unifies gender variant populations is our current positions in our respective socieites thanks to Western ideas that have shifted our cultural understandings and discourse no matter how diverse they all once were.

That is the basis that I have to work with other groups. Mahu, Muxe, Kathoey, Náadleh, Xanith, etc... Are diverse and not there for the reasons you said, we don't fit in western paradigms or reasonings correctly but we are put there because that's the world we live in now.

back to tumblr faggot

Bathrooms are divided by equipment not by feelings.
Get your junk mutilated then we can talk.

Bathrooms are meant for the removal of bodily wastes and no one questions what my genitals are when I use the toilet.

No one has to question anything. If you have a punishment you use the men's restroom, if you are in possession you use the women's.
There is no questioning going on.
It certainly does not change the fact that bathrooms are an equipment issue not a feelings one. That's why women's restrooms don't have urinals.

Trans people are not normal, and should not be seen as such.

There are single occupancy bathrooms that are designated men's and women's yet both only have a toilet.

It's doesn't matter what is inside the bathroom anyways, it's not as though men have to pee standing up in most cases or women can't pee standing up if they so choose with the right technique or aid.

Glad to see we're being normalized now though :3

>Glad to see we're being normalized now though :3
The internet is not representative of real life
You aren't even close to being normalized

So. When they are separated the are separated for equipment reason not feelings.

How is me saying trans people not normal normalizing you. You guys have a mental illness that is treated in the most silly invasive way. On top of that you want us to partake in your delusions.

They are separated because the most mundane things in the world are gendered. Not because they are naturally that way.
Legal protection, medical support, visibility all happening in the U.S. and western Europe. Not just the internet.

Yep
Just the internet you delusional freak
Just a reminder you will always be an ugly man

Men and women don't want to evacuate our bodies together. That is natural. Gender is natural. Sex and gender are only 'different' when dealing with mentally unstable people i.e. you. Otherwise it works just fine. Men and women naturally segregate from one another at times. This is due to sexual dimorphism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannathun
Transgenders in Islam, m8.

In the current era, scholars in Iran[5] and Egypt[6] have issued fatwas supporting the right for those who fit the description of mukhannathun to have sex reassignment surgery. In Pakistan, the transgender community there live as hijras, and are officially recognized as a third-gender being neither male nor female.[7]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.
You can't say it's natural when we don't live in a society where the default is not gender segregated.
If you're interested in a more contemporary account I recommend reading about the Xanith of Oman who function(ed) as a third gender.