How did the Chinese perceive Europeans and Middle Easterners?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daqin

I wonder if there's any records of Chinese scholars commentating on translations of greek myths or philosophy. I imagine such an endavour might be beyond anyone's ability in the ancient world though.

lrn2 Gan Ying

this
gweilo, bukgwai the lot of you

all barbarian ghost savages

never happened on any level of which we are aware. Chinese and Greco-roman worlds only barely comprehended that the other existed and didn't know more than basic facts about them. there was no large scale cultural contact, let alone serious efforts to understand one anothers philosophies.

Retarded arabian monkey.

Somebody is still butthurt about Talas?

Chinese women percieved Europeans as gods and wanted to be bred by them

No, we are not butthurt at the arabs because of Talas, which was only won because Turkish allies betrayed us mid battle. Arabs have always been barbarians, never cought our intrests. Islam=/=Arabs

(Direction) barbarians

The only one that were not seen as barbaric was Rome and Iran to an extent. The reason is that Chinese thiught Romans originated from China. Basucally China of the west.

But it depends on the dynasty. Sometimes 夷(yi) ment only foreigner/non han, which was not really an insult to non Chinese. I.e Last Sassanid nobility in Tang court, but sometimes, especially during war and turmoil 夷 ment Barbarians.

You niggers can like: read sources, you know?

Sure there is a barbarian meme, but TL;DR since the 600's AD up until even the 1300's AD, there were only 3 people that mattered Westwards of China: Romans, Muslims, and Persians. Nomads mattered as well, but the Chinese opinion of Turkics, Jurchens, Mongols, and whatnot is well known, and needs no further extrapolation.

On the Byzantines, from the Xintangshu (New Records of the T'ang Dynasty) Compiled in 1057, edited by the famous Ouyang Xiu

"The country of Fulin (拂菻) is also called Daqin and is situated on the west side
of the Western Sea (Haixi–Egypt). It is located at forty thousand li (~16,000 km);
in the north it is bordered by the territories of the Turkish Kesa (可薩). At the western side, near the sea, there is the (capital) city of Constantinople (Chisan 遲
散).118 (Fulin) has a common border with Persia in the southeast. Its territory
extends more than ten thousand li (~5000 km), and its armies recruit hundreds of
thousands of soldiers. Every ten li (~5 km) there is a pavilion, and every three li
(1.5 km) there is a military place. There are ten subordinate, little countries, and to
go there, the road passes through the countries of Yisan (澤散Armenia; in
Armenian Hayastan) and Lufen (驢分the Kievan Rus; Lat. Ruthenia). Yisan is at
its northeastern section and does not obey its orders. Going in the direction of the
eastern Guohai Sea, at two thousand li, there is the country of Lufen (The Rus)."

contd.

"The capital
city (Constantinople) is protected by thick walls eight li (~3.2 km) long, and the
eastern door is twelve zhang high, with hinges made of pure gold. There are three
doors in a line on the three king’s palaces, and they are all decorated with many
kinds of jewels. On the middle door there is a big man made of gold next to a
horologe made with twelve golden balls that shows the time. There are huge
columns in the palace made of crystal, with the posts made of colored glaze and
rafters made of perfumed wood; the floor is made of gold with ivory everywhere.They have twelve administrative regions.119 When the king goes out, there is
always an assistant with him and when there is a dispute, they throw the request
paper at him; in this way, the king rectifies the injustices in the provinces.If there
are unexpected calamities in the kingdom, he (the king) is unceremoniously
rejected and replaced. The cape of the king is like two wings of a bird made of
jewels and feathers. His clothes are made of brocade and he has no garment in
front. His throne is made of gold and decorated with falling flowers, and on his
side there is a bird with green feathers (a peafowl; Lat. Pavo) 120 that cries
suddenly when there is poison in the food. They do not use ceramic bricks but
they decorate the walls with white stones and the tiles of the houses are solid and
elegant like the jade. They have a system of fountains to refresh the air. The men
cut their hair and their clothes are finely embroidered, open on the right side.
They have screened coaches (for the women) and small white-roofed one-horse
carts. When carriages come and go, drums are beaten and flags and standards are
raised. The women have white pieces of cloth made of brocade on their hair. The
families always complain and many go to the palace court."

"They like to get drunk
and to eat biscuits. They have many children. There are also many illusionists,
who can spit fire out of their faces, have very nimble hands and can take out
banners from their mouths and make balls of jade come out of their feet. There are
excellent doctors121 who are able to open the stomach to take out the diseases and that can also repair the eyes. They have plenty of gold (jin 金), silver (yin 銀),
phosphorescent jade (yeguangbi 夜光璧), precious stones (mingyueqiu 明月球),
large seashells (dabei 大貝), mother-of-pearl (chequ 車渠), agates (manao 嗎硇),
munan (木難), empty jades (kongchi 孔翠), and yellow amber (hupo 虎魄). In the
sea, there are oceans of corals; the mariners use big ships and they throw iron nets
into the bottom of the sea. At the beginning of their lives, the corals are white,
then they become yellow after one year, then they become red after three year,s
and their branches are complex, to a height of 3 or 4 chi (less than one meter).
They use the iron nets to cut the corals at their roots and then to bring them up
into the ship, and when they pull up the nets, nobody dares go close to the waters.
There is a beast large like a dog that they call “Zhi,” fierce and evil, with great
strength.122 In the northern area there are many sheep; they grow from the earth
and their navels are linked to the earth; they die if it is cut. When the armored
horsemen go out of the cities, they hit the drums and the umbilical cords (of the
sheep) are cut; the sheep immediately follow the river grass and they are not in
the herd anymore (and they die)."

Barbaric even up to the point where they invited Eruopeans and recieved gifts of maps and advanced mechanical contraptions and realistic paintings. They saw no need for those things ass all the things that they needed was already within the 'middle kingdom'. That gradually changed when the Japanese invaded Korea and BTFO the Chinese fleet twice the size of the technologically advanced Japanese.

On the Arabs [Dashi to the Chinese], also from the Xintangshu, compiled from the records of one Du Huang, who was a POW in the Abbasid Caliphate following the Battle of Talas."

"The Dashi (Arabs) were originally under the rule of Anxi (Persia). The men have high noses, are dark, and bearded. The women are very fair [white] and when they go out they veil the face. Five times daily they worship Tianshen [lit. Heavenly God]. They wear silver girdles, with silver knives suspended. They do not drink wine, nor use music. Their place of worship will accommodate several hundreds of people. Every seventh day the King (Caliph) sits on high, and speaks to those below saying, ' Those who are killed by the enemy will be born in heaven above; those who slay the enemy will receive happiness.' Therefore they are usually valiant fighters. Their land is sandy and stony, not fit for cultivation; so they hunt and eat flesh."

"Kufa is the place of their capital. Its men and women are attractive in appearance and large in stature. Their clothing is handsome, and their carriage and demeanor leisurely and lovely. When women go outdoors, they always cover their faces, regardless of whether they are noble or base. They pray to heaven five times a day. They eat meat [ even] when practicing abstention, [for] they believe the taking of life to be meritorious."

"The followers of the religion of the Dashi have a means to denote the degrees of family relations, but it is degenerated and they don’t bother about it. They don’t eat the meat of pigs, dogs, donkeys and horses, they don’t respect neither the king of the country, neither their parents, they don’t believe in supernatural powers, they perform sacrifice to heaven and to no one else. According their customs every seventh day is a holiday, on which no trade and no cash transactions are done, whereas when they drink alcohol, they are behaving in a ridiculous and undisciplined way during the whole day."

>all contact, relations were official and recorded

99.999999% of history ia unrecorded

what we do know is we are the celestial race and everyone else is barbarian

>Japan
>BTFO anything at sea
K.

They've just had ninjas jumping at them with katanas, they've cut the chinese ships in halves very quickly.

tl;dr, for much of the Chinese equivalent of the "medieval ages" not everyone is a nigger for the Chinese in the West. Some were marvellous and magnificent. Others, like the Steppe Nomads, or the people called Folangqi (Western Europeans), aren't as well regarded.

...

>Hong cuck
>in a position to call others barbarian savages

>Every seventh day the King (Caliph) sits on high, and speaks to those below saying, ' Those who are killed by the enemy will be born in heaven above; those who slay the enemy will receive happiness.'
RELIGION OF PEAAAAAAAAAACE

They liked the fantasy western empire they had in their mythology, and they believed Rome to be that since it was en empire in the west and it's too far to actually see they're just normal people.

So the secret to leading your people through an unprecedented era of prosperity or culture is /cia/. Who would have though?

>Fantasy
They knew who the Romans are. Byzantium was actually the westernmost recepient of Chink diplomatic mail. The Byzantine Emperor regularly got gifts from him. ACTUAL ROMAN PEOPLE lived in the Chinese capitals during the T'ang-Ming Dynasties, usually either Merchants or Orthodox/Nestorian Missionaries.

Take for example the Manifesto of the Ming Dynasty's foundation.

"We have sent officers to all the foreign kingdoms with this Manifesto except to you, Fulin [Byzantium], who, being separated from us by the western sea, have not as yet received the announcement. We now send a native of your country, Nieh-gu-lun [Fra. Nicolaus de Bentra, Archbishop of Beijing], to hand you this Manifesto. Although We are not equal in wisdom to our ancient rulers whose virtue was recognized all over the universe, We cannot but let the world know Our intention to maintain peace within the four seas. It is on this ground alone that We have issued this Manifesto."
- Zhu Yuanzhang [a.k.a Hongwu Emperor], closing statement of his Manifesto of Accession, sent to the Byzantine Empire in 1372.

Barbarians meant just foreigner too in it's origin. What happens is that being foreigner is an objectively bad thing in ancient times.

>There is a beast large like a dog that they call “Zhi,” fierce and evil, with great
strength.

What could that be?

From the footnotes
>"The ancient pronunciation of zhi (質) was xian, a transcription from the Greek word for “hyaena” according to B.
Laufer, Sino-Iranica (Chicago 1919; reprinted Taipei 1970) p.436."

Ey where you getting this from, I would like to read more.

>Tang/Ming
>byzantine
>1372

Very late. They believed in the western empire way before that, way before actual contact. This belief determined the development of Rome in the chinese imaginarium from the start.

>being separated from us by the western sea

They mean the caspian, the indic ocean or what? Because, if they mean the mediterranean, the "western sea" is an odd separation to mention considering it would be the less important trouble for the Ming to contact Byzantium.

Europe has a very long history and China even longer. Specify a time period

It just sounds like classic abrahamic discourse.

Indian Ocean & Persian Gulf. Remember: The Silk Route was a shitty place at the time thanks to the collapsing Mong Empire.

For another reference, Zheng He's famous trip is often called "Voyages in the Western Sea."

relevant

Good, that's what I thought, thanks.

I think the contact began since Alexander's conguest,Greeks were the first foreigners chinese came to know

thisisbait.jpg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayuan
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom#Contacts_with_the_Han_Empire

I didn't mean to bait

Not him user but

>the first foreigners chinese came to know

Fucking seriously?

Persian/Central Asians: exotic waifus, exotic instruments, exotic artifacts, arr rook ze same, probably our vassals and a few Sassanian princes actually recognized so
Indians: Buddhist expat destination, probably our vassal but we didn't give a fuck
Romans: another persian guy I guess, probably our vassal but we never asked

>a few Sassanian princes actually recognized so

This never happened unless you're talking about when they were already exiled. The persians could act in a way that the chinese could interpret as accepting suzerainity (in the same way the persian emperor interpreted the payments of the romans as recognizing vassallage) but that's it. The persian monarch had a throne for the chinese ruler in his palace and it was in an inferior position (this was very important in persian protocol).

> when they were already exiled
Yes that's what I mean. If you played CK2, the few independent Persian states by the beginning of the 867 game paid regular tributes to Tang in exchange for protection against Arabs, although that's most likely before 750s.

> The persian monarch had a throne for the chinese ruler in his palace and it was in an inferior position (this was very important in persian protocol).
Yeah we did similar thing, like every ruler in history who claimed higher titles than kings, sultans, shahs or wangs. Do you really think that Charlemagne and Harun Rashid explained to their subjects that they were exchange letters as equal friends?

No problem then senpai. I should have given you the benefit of doubt, but some chinese and sinoboos (more often the later to be honest) here sometimes go too far.

shit map desu

Ive been thinking, did old timey western traders and diplomats ever hook up with chinese brides?
Did the concesions have chink populated brothels?

There is no China in CK2