What kind of appeal does Islam have to ordinary people?
Having actually read the Qur'an and shit you find so many things that are utterly distateful. There's even an entire chapter dedicated to saying "fuck Abu Lahab [his uncle], die in a fire".
At least Christianity makes a big deal of making peace with your enemies and being generous to less well-off people than you, even if people never followed it to the full letter. But Islam? I just cannot understand it. It's a religion founded by a fucking warlord who everyone hated, even his own tribe, and his solution was apparently to murder the shit out of them. What's the appeal for a billion people for such a religion, especially now that ISIS are, well, trying to bring it back to its roots?
Perhaps it isn't Islam, perhaps the sad truth about humanity is that there exists a majority of people who need to be told how to live, what to eat, how many times a day to pray, what is good and bad etc. The actual ideology itself doesn't matter than the fact that many people need SOMETHING to give a meaning to their mundane lives
Sebastian Campbell
The masculine warrior ethos appeals to a lot of people.
Even Hitler lamented the fact that the Germans were Christcucks instead of Muslims.
Jordan Jenkins
You forgot the part where one of the "100 bitches" was 9 years old :^)
Adrian Thomas
You can reduce anything to absurdity with polemics like that, which will only ever confound your search for an answer since everything you understand about their religion is seen through the lens of someone who is invested in hating it. Have you ever spoken to a Muslim personally and asked their opinion?
Perhaps reading some journals of incognito Westerners on Hajj from the 18th and 19th century might help. They talk about Islamic ritual at its most powerful, so you might gain some insight through their accounts, because memes aside there's little in the above responses and opinions posted thus far that would fuel a harsh pilgrimage like that for so many people.
Brayden Gomez
Aisha's youth was exaggerated to emphasize the fact she was Muhammad's only virgin, and therefore pure wife
And back then puberty was what made you able to have sex back in those days, not meme laws about being 18+
John Scott
Basically this
That's not to discount all theism though, forming your own theology is infinitely better for both you and your children. What works for one people won't for another, and specifying to your family is about as specific as you need to be.
This too.
>hurr Christianity a cuck >let's remove everything that makes it good and make another warrior religion that without monotheistic safeguards would descend into god of war worship
All ritual is false sophistry unless it has personal meaning. If it wasn't your ancestor, you will always be an outsider.
Ryder James
>What kind of appeal does Islam have to ordinary people? Wanting to keep believing what they were raised in, wanting to not get killed by Muslims.
>Having actually read the Qur'an and shit you find so many things that are utterly distateful. Nigga have you read the Bible?
Sebastian Collins
9 years old is far away from puberty. Especially in pre-modern times, when protein supplies were scarcer.
Juan Stewart
>Nigga have you read the Bible?
B-BUT THE OLD TESTAMENT DOESN'T COUNT!
IT'S METAPHORICAL YOU SHOULDN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.
Asher King
To be fair, neither the old or new testament states that the punishment for apostasy is death
While Islam expressly says that apostates are to be put to death and certain Muslim countries actually have the death penalty for apostasy.
Robert Gray
Did you not address that half of my post? Scholastic consensus is that Aisha's age was exaggerated to prove beyond doubt she was a virgin.
Connor Scott
9 is close to the age outward signs of the onset of puberty might begin, which is what drove what is likely early Islamic mythmaking concerning the age of Aisha. A similar thing likely happened with Ali and his marriage to a supposedly equally young Fatima. In both cases the end result seems to have been that Aisha and Fatima are elevated to almost saintly status among Sunni/Shia respectively, whereas almost every other female in the prophetic household is a doormat by comparison.
>To be fair, neither the old or new testament states that the punishment for apostasy is death To be fair again, neither does the Quran. Apostasy developed later during the late Umayyad period, maybe even as a result of Zoroastrian influence when the theological center of the emerging faith moved away from Arabia and into Iraq.
Christian Foster
>While Islam expressly says that apostates are to be put to death
Go ahead and quote the verse that says so,ill be waiting Mr ''I read the quran''.
Henry Bell
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
Jackson Turner
That's not apostasy though,this is about treachery and most people tend to ignore the verse following it,
[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
Liam Morris
>Quran (4:89) Which was not treated classically as a ruling on apostasy, but part of Muhammad's historical battles with those the Quran labels the hypocrites. It should be noted, by the way, that all the verses immediately surrounding this verse concern a belligerent force, and that should some peace be established there is no legal cause for violence merely on the basis of hypocrisy/disbelief.
Joshua Morales
Islam is strong and militaristic, people admire strength, but for the most part Muslims and westerners whom defend Islam are simply ignorant of it's nature. It's honestly quite arrogant of them to presume something about something they haven't even bothered to study.
>But you just listen to anti Muslim people xd so thus ur biased LMAO Yeah, god forbid I learn about Nazism from pro Nazi sources. But thankfully I bother to read about Islam fairly neutrally, what's better than to simply read the Quran?
Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
Elijah Campbell
>All ritual is false sophistry unless it has personal meaning. If it wasn't your ancestor, you will always be an outsider.
It's one thing for a civil holiday where a potentate goes through his motions to satisfy rules of procedure, but another thing entirely to uproot oneself for weeks, usually months if not years, to travel some thousands of miles into inhospitable lands like Northwestern Arabia, especially when the vast majority of those who made this trip in history share little ancestry with the Hedjazi Arabs who developed the ritual.
Tyler Adams
>then fight the heads of disbelief That's the point. It's so vague, it can be interpreted as anything. You can take it literally like CUT THEIR HEAD OFF! or you can take it as a metaphor. Of someone around you leaves Islam, you have to fight to get them back. You have to convince them to return into the fold
Jose Ward
Not even muslim but Abu Lahab was a dick. >Die in a fire
He's going to hell for laying thorns on a public road. He died while trying to burn a converted slave alive.
>Isis is muslim
*Sunni Arab nationalist.
Carson Cox
>In order that they may desist
If the implications of this verse was to behead them this part would be rather redundant,Specially with the usage of word ''may'' instead of ''would'' or ''will''
Jeremiah Hall
Pilgrimage doesn't need to be strictly religious, following the route of Alexander the great could be just as meaningful.
Now imagine if it were your ancestor, the closest person to yourself living at that time, and you are following their footsteps and learning what they learned. You're getting close to replicating their mind and body there, seems almost like resurrection? Otherwise, how much do you actually have in common with Mohammed the prophet?
I think religion that isn't strictly created for your family, or at least your culture, is false. The Romans understood this, which is why they had household gods, the Jews definitely understood this, the Christians understood this but tried to make their religion as diverse as possible.
The Muslims understand this, which is why they'll tell you the Qur'an can only be understood in Arabic.
Bear in mind though that this does not discount monotheism. The God in exodus 3:14 is for every human since we all have at least one common ancestor going far enough back. The people who live in the desert would naturally have different ways of living than a Sami who's seen month long days and nights.
Tl;Dr Teach your own children what you personally believe. It's now your responsibility.
Jack Allen
>this is about treachery In Islam, treachery is apostasy, because it repeatedly states that by their very own nature, to be a kaffir is to will against Allah. The Quran states to only take people in whom do not fight against you if they do one of two things, convert to Islam or feel "subdued" in their institution. You have to remember, the verse is in the context of Muhammad's war with the Quraysh, where he was expanding the dominion of Allah which HE INSTIGATED.
4:90 is literally saying that those that surrender to you are okay, as long as we look at 40:91:
You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.
It's literally saying that the kaffir, during Jihad, are to be below you through submission. This is what happened post Muhammad conquering of Quraysh and the tribes, he enslaved them and persecuted them, but guaranteed State safety as long as they felt themselves oppressed. They become Dhimmi.
Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day... (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
>Cut the heads Even if literal or metaphorical, it is supporting the idea of theological persecution within the state, not outside the state. So "heads of disbelief" can be a number of things, perhaps actual warfare, killing or imprisoning Kaffir leaders or simply preaching in the streets for a different faith. Desisting against Allah has proven to mean many things, including simply building a church, for example. It's simply saying that if you are subverting Allah, you have to desist, or else.
Lucas Allen
>To be fair, neither the old or new testament states that the punishment for apostasy is death
Wrong. Read Leviticus. Penalty for apostasy (i.e. worshiping any god other than the 'true' God) is death according to the OT.
>Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
That's not a reference to apostasy at all. It's a reference to the treaty of Hudaibiya which was signed between Muhammad and a bunch of pagan tribes after the pagans attacked Medina but failed to capture it.
It's basically saying that if some of the pagans become Muslims then the treaty doesn't apply anymore because they are "brethren in religion" but if they break the treaty and attack you then the treaty also doesn't apply and you can retaliate.
Daniel Evans
The problem with all this is that none of the classical Islamic theologians justified their views on death for apostates through the Quran, but did so through the hadith. As mentioned previously, the Quran is more lenient on the matter, and though one can forcibly read into verses to try and suggest death for apostates, it would be a novel mental exercise that hasn't been done by actual historical Muslims.
Nolan Russell
Quran doesn't mention the death penalty for apostasy at all.
It's only in the Hadith.
It's the same case with the death penalty for adultery - it's not found in the Quran at all; only in the Hadith.
this is like Islamic studies 101 guys
Nicholas Torres
9:11 is actually
>But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.
>Zakah This gives it away, if it were Jizya, then I'd believe you, but Zakah isn't paid for by non Muslims, it's an aspect of their Pillars. The quote is referring to Authentic Muslims, and those Muslims who, for example, don't pay for the Zakah, which are then subject to the following, The Treaty had nothing to do with Zakah,
>It's basically saying that if some of the pagans become Muslims I'm not seeing this?
>Read Leviticus. Penalty for apostasy (i.e. worshiping any god other than the 'true' God) is death according to the OT. Just saying... But you do realize the Muslims look upon the Talmud and Torah as holy books as well?
>but did so through the hadith Hadith is authentic for the most part, so unless the Muslim world suddenly turned Shia, we're stuck with Sunnis who take the Hadith literally.
>with the death penalty for adultery But the Quran does describe severe punishment for adultery. 24:2.
Leo Barnes
>Did you not address that half of my post? Scholastic consensus is that Aisha's age was exaggerated to prove beyond doubt she was a virgin.
Not him but the only exaggeration is that there is a consensus.
>Aisha made a clear and specific statement about her age at marriage. Even if her statement is somewhat surprising (i.e., it contradicts your common-sense assumption about general trends), there is no real reason to disbelieve her. She was a recognised expert in both genealogy and arithmetic, and her father was also an expert in genealogy, so we would expect Aisha to know her age.
If you have actual scholarly information I'm sure they'd love to hear from you.
Yep, 8 pages of talk on her Wikipedia article and yet it still plainly states;
>Aisha's age at the time she was married to Muhammad has been of interest since the earliest days of Islam, and references to her age by early historians are frequent.[11] According to Sunni scriptural Hadith sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad with the marriage not being consummated until she had reached puberty at the age of nine or ten years old.[10][11][12][13][14][23][24][25]
See all those sources? Pretty easy to see what the "scholastic consensus" is.
Benjamin Lewis
>What kind of appeal does Islam have to ordinary people?
Islam is unique in that it contains specific and structured rules for how to live life. This can be very attractive to weak people or those who lack self-discipline.
Charles Smith
>So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace
This is obviously saying that they are using force against you while refusing peace in which case you are permitted to defend yourself and kill them i don't quite see the issue.
>Quran (9:29)
It's literally saying so long they pay jizya without harboring ill intentions,you are aware that jizya isn't some commie 99% tax but a simple 1 dinar (at the time of muhammad) per year that prevented your conscription right? and keep in mind the muslims theirselves had their own tax but they still got conscripted.
And you also have to keep in mind the word fight in arabic includes all forms of it,whether through arguing or force so it's more or less being used in order to be flexible.
>Hadith is authentic for the most part
There's the fact that hadiths were banned by the first four caliphs iirc but eitherway this depends on who you're arguing with,quranists for example do not admit of the hadith specially since it is full of contradictions with itself and the quran.
Not him but there's the fact that her age is not an agreed upon fact but rather speculations based on hadiths which they theirselves are unsure of her exact age since there are repeated hadiths with different claims,only reason sunnis agree on it is because it helps them counter the shia claim of aisha being a whore.
Lincoln James
Wiki editors quoting directly from primary hadith and sirah sources and giving weight to them over academic scholarship does not a scholastic consensus make.
Eli Russell
>At least Christianity makes a big deal of making peace with your enemies and being generous to less well-off people than you, even if people never followed it to the full letter
Really? If I go by the behavior of Christians on this board, I would've never gotten that idea
Luis Price
>academic scholarship
that's not how you spell revisionism
Nathan Jones
Correct, because those are two different things, user. This is why we have words.
Parker Cruz
All of the desert religions are based on FEAR. That is their appeal: they convince you that the bogeyman is real, and then offer you protection at the price of your mind and body.
The quran is especially good at this. There are two elements in particular that contribute to its ability to instil fear into the mind of the reader.
The first is repeated stories of a prophet warning a people of god's wrath, that people ignoring the warning, and that people being destroyed because of it. It's difficult to understand just how central a theme this is to the quran unless you read it. It seems like every second page there is another story that follows this exact same pattern. Even jewish and christian myths are respun by the author to fit the pattern, so for example, in the quran noah is an unheeded prophet.
The second is that the quran speaks of hell in great, vivid detail, and frequently, whereas jewish and christian texts place generally only mention it in passing and even then only in abstract terms. Some jews and christians even deny that it exists, but the quran imprints so strong a picture of hell onto the minds of its readers that the duped believe it with all their being. There are literally pages and pages of text just detailing hell and the torments of its population in every detail. There's too much to quote from the quran, but a small summary from wikipedia:
Anthony Brown
>flames that crackle and roar;[26] fierce, boiling waters [27] scorching wind, and black smoke,[28] roaring and boiling as if it would burst with rage.[29] Its wretched inhabitants sigh and wail,[30] their scorched skins are constantly exchanged for new ones so that they can taste the torment anew, [31] drink festering water and though death appears on all sides they cannot die,[32] are linked together in chains of 70 cubits,[33] wearing pitch for clothing and fire on their faces,[34] have boiling water that will be poured over their heads, melting their insides as well as their skins, and hooks of iron to drag them back should they try to escape,[35] their remorseful admissions of wrongdoing and pleading for forgiveness are in vain.[36][37][38]
>The Quran states the punishments will be: the burning of skin, only to be replaced for reburning;[111] garments of fire to be worn,[44] and boiling water that will scald the skin and internal organs[112] and faces;[113] faces on fire;[114] lips burnt off;[115] backs on fire;[116] from side to side;[117] faces dragged along fire;[118] bound in yokes then dragged through boiling water and fire, and wearing a pair of sandals on fire that will boil your brain.[119] [120]
This goes on and on and on in the quran.
Jace Thompson
>Some jews and christians even deny that it exists
Isaiah Thomas
>ordinary people
That's your problem right there untermensch.
Caleb Turner
Where can I learn about all this please teach me!!!!!
Whereas all these non-Muslim "ordinary people" know is to bow down to and reward every sinner and idiot that insults God (may He be praised and exalted), His prophets (peace be upon them), their religions, and their own histories, like the bunch of infidels, cowards and masochists they are.
>Christianity makes a big deal of making peace with your enemies That is not peace! You make peace by negotiating after a fight! They do not make peace because they do not even attempt to correct their enemies in the first place, let alone fight!
All they ever do is submission!
And they even make fun of Muslim women for allegedly being submissive, when each of them is braver than one hundred of their "men"!
The evidence of true faith, the one that has not gone astray, is that a Muslim submits to God and only to God (may He be praised and exalted), not to these Western secular States, each of whom thinks itself the greatest power there is, and especially not to God's enemies!
