Aztec vs. Zulu

I've got to give it to the Aztecs.
They had shields and armor to rival the zulus and the ferocity of the warriors is similar on both sides, however, the Aztecs had more versatility, light infantry, heavy infantry, by light I mean scounts and by heavy I mean fighters. They had organized combat units, they had archers, they had an officer corps.
Zulu didn't have bows or atlatls, Aztecs did. Every warrior could pepper the Zulu line before the battle even began.

I'd take a Martini Henry over a bow any day desu

>Zulu
>firearms

Why not give the aztecs some tanks and choppers?

Are you claiming the Zulus didn't have firearms?

Because the Zulus actually used firearms, you dingdong.

Are you claiming they produced them themselves?

Even if we discount Zulu firearms, the asagai spear they used was more than a match for any armor the Aztecs had, and that big hide shield would protect them just fine from Aztec missiles. A Zulu warrior trained from youth and ate a diet extremely rich in meat, famously an Impi of Zulus could /run/ 50 miles in a day, meanwhile Aztecs had a core of full-time warriors but the great majority of their armies was made up of farmers with little or no training, and a diet so poor in meat they may as well have been vegetarians. Add to this the superior tactics of the Zulu and it would be a slaughter.

Nobody claims that, but that's not the point. The Zulu army used firearms, so in a hypothetical matchup between the Zulus and the Aztecs, the Zulus would have firearms.

So when evaluating modern armies, we can only grant them the guns, tanks & planes they manufactured themselves?

Welp. Guess all nations that use the G36 aside of germany are fucked now.

Are you claiming this is relevant? Did you know the Mongols didn't produce the weapons they used, but imported them from China?

Right, because smallpox devastating over 80% of their population had no effect. Without disease, american natives would have rocked spanish socks.

Whoever coughs first wins.

The epidemics came AFTER the conquest, retardo.

>They had organized combat units

what the fuck would you call an impi then?

In an open battle of equal numbers the Zulus hands down. It ain't even a contest. They had supperior arms and at least comparable tactics, if not better ones.

Civilisation wise (if they somehow magically were neighboring countries) it is hard to call. The Aztecs had better fortification, a navy, better supply lines and FAR greater numbers, but the Zulus would still have access to FAR better weapon technology.

Hard to call really.

Zulus.

They were literally African Romans.

no. epidemics came the very fucking instant columbus landed, genius. People were already dying when Cortez walked in. By the time Europeans made it into continental north america, north of mexico, native populations had dwindled, in various areas, 30 to 70%.

>but the Zulus would still have access to FA
It doesn't mean much. The weapon in the soldiers hands plays a tiny role in the outcome of a battle compared to numbers, training, other equipment, morale and everything else.

If US soldiers still used M1 Garands they'd still win the battles they won in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A full scale war would include sieges where I think that the Aztecs would have the upper hand considering how much more advanced structures they had.

Okay? Are you suggesting the Zulus didn't know how to operate the firearms they got hold of?

>and a diet so poor in meat
Average beef muscle meat has 18% of protein, while some of the insects that the Aztecs ate had up to 70%.

you have a disease

It's not just the protein its the hormones and amino acids found abundantly in red meat and milk that gives the Zulus the advantage. And really just look at modern Mestizoes and modern Zulus, even without nutritional advantages the Zulus have a genetic advantage when it comes to fighting.

i'd take a dry martini over a gun any day 2bh

>The epidemics came AFTER the conquest
It came during the Conquest, right after La Noche Triste an epidemic started and even killed the Aztec emperor.

yeah, the epidemic was smart. it just waited 'til all the fighting was over and picked off the weakened latins, right?

please kill yourself

THAY WUR LITRALLEY ROMUNS

>they actually weren't literally romans

I don't care what sociologists argue. In that hostile south african environment, weak beings died and didn't procreate. It's obviously natural selection, just like how we bred them in western hemisphere colonies.

>even without nutritional advantages the Zulus have a genetic advantage when it comes to fighting.

citation needed

>aztecs
>BTFO by the white man
you mean the white man and his thousands of native allies

Aztecs.

The Zulus literally were only called conquerors because THEY STARTED FIGHTING IN MELEE IN AN AREA WHERE THE NORM WAS SPEAR CHUCKING.

Meanwhile the Aztecs were drenched in Melee.

Also Civilization > Tribe.

you have kindergarten-tier understanding of "natural selection" and "breeding". read a book, stupid nigger.

Aztecs.

They were literally Amerindian Romans.

k, white privilege guy.

No not at all. I'm an expert on the Zulu war. I'm saying that having an iron Iklwa isn't such an advantage over the Obsidian swords and spears of the Aztecs to alone result in victory. Those Obsidian swords though brittle were ridiculously sharp so they weren't terrible. While Zulu Iklwa's were quite poor metal.

The Olympics / world records in general. Compare niggers to latin americans with mostly or fully native blood, see if you can find even a single area the amerindians have an advantage in.

Well, through convergent evolution their fighting technique were extremely similar to Roman fighting techniques.

>I'm saying that having an iron Iklwa isn't such an advantage over the Obsidian swords and spears of the Aztecs to alone result in victory.

Okay? Good thing I never claimed the spear alone was the decisive factor. Are you ever going to manage to make a relevant post?

Aztec,

Even Aztec spearchuckery aces zulu shit.

The aminoacid quality of their insect diet is comparable to that of the animals in the Old World and is only lacking in methionine and tryptophan, which are covered by amaranth and tomato respectively.

Now, what hormones did the Aztec diet lack?

>implying

If you want to make the absurd claim that the Aztecs diet was as rich and nutritious as that of the Zulu then I don't know what to tell you.

Are we actually giving the Zulus firearms for this scenario? Really? All they had were a small number of guns they managed to procure from whatever European was willing to sell to them. I don't think we can count that as the Zulus did not know how to create or maintain such weapons on their own. This is Zulus vs Aztecs, not Zulus vs. Aztecs and each side can buy more advanced weapons from the white man to increase their chances. Might as well give the Aztecs some AK-47s while you're at it.

You could start with a counterargument.

>Iklwa.
>Throwing spear.

Cattle.

Zulus would win with or without them, assuming equal numbers of fighters. But the Aztecs could raise much bigger armies than the Zulu, so perhaps equal numbers isn't a fair metric.

I didn't say anything about throwing it. Pic related will take care of the javelins while the Zulu charge will do the rest.

Because there is no precedent of such a mismatched conflict in history aside from the Conquistadors - and even that wasn't totally a mismatch because 15th century muskets were shit and most of the Amerindians died of disease, not European technical superiority.
The Native Americans were underdeveloped pushovers until they bought and captured enough rifles to require the US to send first rate infantry to "pacify" them, and Little Big Horn still happened. Your Panzer division is going to be useless versus natives who know the land better than you and will silently sneak into your camps and collect magic fire sticks while Hans snoozes.

"Who would win" always implies that the allegedly inferior force won't adapt to your tech or doctrine. Such thought experiments are merely fantasies of who can genocide whom faster, but the realities of assymetric warfare proves that tech is not a good enough predictor for victory.

Afghanistan is proof enough that modern militaries will underestimate the force needed to pacify otherwise backwards insurgent country. So we send in light infantry with unarmored vehicles, cause its the only stuff that can survive the terrain and is sufficient against poorly armed insurgents, then get slaughtered once the insurgents get ahold of more modern weapons. No "backwards" nation will try to take a powerful enemy heads on if they can help it. Its an animal survival instinct that modern militaries think is a privileged skill.

>A cowhide shield.
Yeah, that shit never fended off anything worse than a hand-chucked spear.

Meanwhile Aztecs had Atlatls, slings, that massive staff sling, and bows and arrows.

You realise Africans had bows, slings and javelins, right? And that the Zulus stomped them anyway?

You realize the Zulus and their Bantu Speaking neighbors occupied a very isolated part of Africa right?

Their whole warfighting ensemble is the Iklwa, that cowhide shield, the longer spear, and the Iwissa.

Furthermore the Bantus in that part of the world have no such thing as a dedicated war-bow. They probably just had shit for small birds.

Also: no armor. Those Aztec guys in fursuits? They wear helmets made of Mahogany and quilted jackets that can soften club blows or ward of cuts. It was quite good that Spanish Colonial Soldiers wore such jackets themselves like their buff coats back home.

Look, we get it, the Zulus made you Anglos look bad. Once. There must be something special going for them, right? Hurr warrior spirit and all. Totally not the incompetence of a few British soldiers. Of course you'll root for those niggers. It's embarassing otherwise.

An atlatl isn't merely a simple javelin, bub.

>Hans snoozes.
germans don't sleep

And what hormones did the Aztec diet lack that could have been provided by cattle?

>germans don't sleep

Hitler did on D-Day

>Aztec weapons were not supposed to kill, their weapons were made of wood so they could knock out their enemies and take them prisoners.
Only the wooden side was used as a blunt weapon, while the obsidian edge was meant to kill and it was even able to decapitate an unarmored horse with a single stroke.

Germany's fucked though. They aren't allowed gas for their trucks and planes, or a food supply.

Romans are not a meme.

this is a well disguised shitpost

Finally! A reply!

Man, I'm bad at this.

Memes.

They are literally internet romans.

advanced, the meso americans

would win? zulus

>Atlatls
A lot of you seem to be under the impression that atlatls change spears from pointy sticks to Rocket-Propelled Death Incarnate, and that's just not true. They're a slight advantage that any decent spear thrower can outperform naturally.
Also, I hate the "shields were useless!" meme. If they were useless, why did they use them?
>Your Panzer division is going to be useless versus natives who know the land better than you and will silently sneak into your camps and collect magic fire sticks while Hans snoozes.
Yes, that's why militaries throughout history have time and time again understocked their troops. Because real life is a movie and operates on the Law of Inverse Ninja.

>A lot of you seem to be under the impression that atlatls change spears from pointy sticks to Rocket-Propelled Death Incarnate
It can make a pointy stick to pierce through chain mail so I guess it's close enough for the time.

There's a reason Mexico got cartels and niggers got gangs.

>summerfags trying to force memes

Wasn't there more numbers for Aztecs? Zulus was relatively tiny tribe.

Theytook them to Europe and fought dirty protestants wearing them

>Aztec fanbois believe every single warrior had an obsidian bladde

Romans.

They were literally Romans.

Africans had small pox, cholera, and bubonic plague. /thread

only the aztec and that was because of disease epidemics.

What about disease tho

>nosotros fue
ja

>civilization > tribe
this

The Zulus had metalwork and actually invented the wheel.

Nice meme

Right? Somehow i think that was like an officer's weapon or something.

>actually invented the wheel.
Shit meme senpai.

Mesoamerican civilizations invented wheels but didn't use them much because of unfavorable terrain and lack of pack animals.

>and a diet so poor in meat they may as well have been vegetarians
Beans and corn provided every nutritional need for the aztecs. so on the contrary aztec peasants would have been hearty

also, before you go
>corn
the aztecs had a method of fortifying corn by the following process
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization
which together with beans provided every amino acid needed by the body

...

Not a white male beating a minority in a task!

>negro pseudoscience being destroyed by facts
>lol didn't read WE WUZ WARRIORS N' SHIT

God I hate niggers

Aztecs are cooler and therefore get the win

If the War took place in Mexico the Aztecs would win. If the War took place in Zululand the Zulus would win. If the War took place in Antarctica it would be a tie.

>all that history gone forever

Fucking Spaniards

Aztecs. Their military strategy might not be as we'll known as the Zulus, but the Zulus battle strategy was literally attack wave one, flank wave 2, surround wave 3, every time.

Aztecs however had a highly developed system called Xochiyaoyotl which trained warriors constantly in real battles for ceremonial purposes. Also since neither of them use metal armor (Zulus might use hide or something but Nahua just wore pelts) I would actually say their obsidian weaponry is an advantage. Further, they have atlatls so if this is a pitched battle in an open field they get the first volley easy. In 1v1 combat they are less robust than the Zulu but their spears are longer which is all the really matters in effectively pre-bronze age battles.

Moot point, even the Sumerians would blow both of them way the fuck out. Any military force of comparable numbers from the middle East would beat these guys.

If the war took place un antartica both would die.
Be retarded spaniard try to build new city on top of city, it floods, after years of failed plans there's only one thing I can think of, drain the city.
>tfw you will never witness the greatness of an ancient city on top of a lake.

>Dutch had no problem building on water.
Why were Spaniards so retarded?

That is why it would be a tie. It would be known as the Perfect War.