How normal were age-disparate relationships before the advent of liberalism?

How normal were age-disparate relationships before the advent of liberalism?

Is it true that nearly all European men, before the 18th century, would today be considered pedophiles?

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Not pedophiles, most men had no desire to literally fuck a child anymore than to fuck a man or old person, they arent sexually attractive.

But they'd go down to 13 or even a bit younger depending on how soon the girl becomes a woman. Woman basically meaning had her period and getting breasts.

Right, but if you want to bang a 13 year old girl you're literally a pedophile

Yes.

If it's a post pubescent 13 year old, that's considered ephebophilia.

No, a 13 year old girl is a teenager, not a child. You're only a pedophile if you want to fuck Children. Attraction to teens is either Hebephilia or Ephebophilia

The vast majority of historical western women would marry in their late teens.

The "all pre-modern men were pedophiles" thing is a meme

The way I hear it marriage/serious sexual and romantic commitment age has actually been fairly static throughout the ages. Usually girls got married 16-30 with early twenties being the average. Which coincides with peak child bearing health.

We think of people in the past as marrying much younger because that's what nobles did with their arranged strategic marriages. Guess who's writing the history books? Actual commoners waited till much later since they weren't trying to shore up political alliances or business deals.

There was variety amongst different people. In Roman times, a woman was most valuable once she had her period and able to have her first children, a man would be most valuable when he was established with a career and status. The age gap of marriage in Greco-Roman culture was therefore quite high.

Now compare that to the Germanic people. According to Tactius' Germania, the Germanic people would stay pure untill both men and women reached around the age of 20, their strength would be combined in strong offspring.

This is nowadays still quite noticable, in countries like Italy, it is still quite common for 20 something year old guys to have 14 year old girlfriends. In Northern European countries, this is heavily frowned upon.

But by today's bullshit standards, they would be considered so, was the question.

The average life span of a commoner was significantly shorter to though, you wouldn't be able to raise a family if you didn't marry young.

Furthermore women who had reached 20 were routinely considered old maids

People knew, even thousands of years ago, prepubescent children don't bear young, generally (I know there can genetically be exceptions but people don't count on that to procreate). They also knew, very early, trying to make a very young woman bear a child can kill both and that's impractical. While there most likely have always been pedophiles, or men with sole sexual attraction to androgynous prepubescent forms, it wasn't a widely (although sometimes occurring) practiced way of going about doing things. It's not healthy, it's not safe.

When you get into the realm of 13+ year-olds, that's no longer pedophilia, although modernly people misuse the term to encompass anyone under a given age, generally 16, and maybe under 18. While still not inherently healthy for the mother or child, these people can still give birth, and in a culture wherein most people die by the age of 5, 13 might well be considered a bridge to adulthood. If that's just the status quo, no, they're not pedophiles. They're men looking for applicable young wives, as might be a modern man looking for an 18 year old, as modern science has lengthened lifespan.

Depends, in Renaissance France, age of marriage was 24 years old... less for the king because he is the king but well.

and
have already confirmed that as nonsense.

>The average life span of a commoner was significantly shorter to though, you wouldn't be able to raise a family if you didn't marry young.

The average lifespan was brought down by the large number of children dying before the age of five.

Pedophilia is the exclusive attraction to pre-pubescent children. The colloquial use of 'pedophile' is basically "attraction to an underage person," which isn't accurate.
The consent laws are necessary but where the line is drawn is fuzzy, arbitrary and pragmatic. The former definition gives a more clear indication of what we means.
If you want to use some definition akin to the latter, use 'hebephilia' or 'ephebophilia.'
We are today also seeing a sexualisation of these groups. Take some demands on STARTING as a female model:
13-20 years old.
173-180 centimeters.

Also, arranged marriages aren't really made out of love as much as out of economic needs or social status. We have this weird romantic period where 'true love' was starting to grow as a concept and the age-disparate marriages were still common (think Poe.)
If we listen to Žižek, today we also are overly protective of children. They have become our "chicken," something which our culture tries to defend from all ills, including sexualisation etc.

This is my position:
People still sexualise teens.
Arranged marriages did not imply sexual attraction.
'Pedophilia' has changed its meaning to equate children with teens.
We are overly protective of children.
This generally leads to confusion.

This is a fucking meme.
Not true by any means.

Life expectancy was short because of infant mortality and women dying during childbirth.

If you were a normal healthy commoner and didn't die making babies you could reasonably expect to live to 70.

According to medieval and early modern church records the average person married around 16 years old

I hate the "Le 40 was an old man" Meme
Niggas lived into their 70's in the 500s BC

Average life span in the past was brought down because of high rates of mortality in very young children. If you made it out of childhood you could reasonably have expected to live into your 60s or 70s.

Just like some modern countries in Africa with average life expectancies of like, 35. People don't just start dropping dead in their late 30s. The average is brought down by high rates of infant and child mortality due to malnutrition and disease.

Depends on country. Where I live legal age is 15, in many, many countries it's 16, there are some where it's 14 or even 13. Now, there are known situations where 12 or 13 years olds used to marry but I think that in general it was closer to 15 or 16 more often than not.

I suppose the obvious question was were age-disparate relationships less common in cultures we today think of as leaning more towards liberalism?
For instance, would the average age of marriage vary wildly between a russian serf and a british pleb?

Anyone have a good resource for the rules of marriage and how they changed throughout Europe over the centuries under the influence of the Catholic Church?

the anti-sexualization of teenagers basically created the jailbait fetish, didn't it?

it's never easy is it?

Honestly the US is the only western country where sexuality has been so heavily demonized throughout its history that attraction to teenagers is seen as some egregious moral offense.

well to be fair dampening people's boners for teenagers is something I can agree with pragmatically.

the resistance only makes me harder.

/r/jailbait shutdown saddest day of my life

what do you call the attraction to full bodied older women?

graverobbing

granny fuckers, tomb raiders, sag lovers

>in countries like Italy, it is still quite common for 20 something year old guys to have 14 year old girlfriends

Did you mean Syria or Egypt? Nowhere in Europe would such a relationship be viewed favourably or even be considered legal

fucking brits

>or men
>female pedos dont exist
Go fuck yourself

provide 1 biological reason for female paedophilia to cause increased biological success.

A female pedo might deliberately have more children because she likes playing with them.

it's well known that pedophilia most often occurs within families (one assume due to convenience) and since children age it helps to make more as desired. applies to both genders of pedo.

pretty much this

the age stigma is purely Germanic.

the natural and biological reproductive age for females is dictated by the period, which all humans and animals are biologically programmed to follow.

the germanics, being autists, aren't in tune with biology and nature of the rest of humanity.

being that germanics conquered the world and forced everyone to submit to the autism of the germanics, the biology of humanity has been hijacked by germanic autism and we follow the command of our conquerers

thanks Germany
youtube.com/watch?v=br0NW9ufUUw

>germanics destroying: human reproduction, traditions, religions, nations, family, races, continents

is there anything that germanics haven't ruined?

Germanic are extremely bloodthirsty savage cruel people. Outwardly they're all smiles and politeness but when you get to know them they're vicious like lions or wolves.

Look at all the misery they have caused worldwide. Wars, colonialism, diseases. Being such a small amount of people they have killed so many more people than they have produced. They're also sexual deviants yet don't use sex to create children. They are a nasty race of devils who have no love for anything except their own individual selves. They don't even like other Germanics or their family members. Everything is competition to them. The Germanics biology is one of seeking out imperishable fame to achieve wealth and sexual partners by any means necessary. And Germanics love it! They take tremendous pride in their ability to kill and destroy, they obsess over violence all day everyday. To the Germanic, families tearing themselves apart and living lives filled with harsh competitiveness is the foundation of their deranged brand of normalcy.

And this way of thinking which Germanics claim is normal has been pushed onto the entire world and everyone cannot succeed in capitalist life without adopting the fierce brutality of the Germanic.

When blacks, Asians, South Americans and other native populations say "I hate white people" they should be saying "I hate Germanics"


they're also mechanistic and ideologically shallow. All their philosophy revolves around how the individual needs to comport himself in society, something everyone else can figure out for themselves. They're ALL little Eichmanns.

Why is child abuse so rampant in Britain? Is it all the stepfathers taking advantage of their stepdaughters? Or is there more to it?

It's the national passtime. Very popular amongst our brown skinned guests as well apparently

No, and pedophilia wasn't as accepted as some people like to meme that it was. That said, most men - now and forever, even in our enlightened age - would still destroy a well-developed pubescent girl (ehebophilia, not pedophilia) if the chance presented itself and there wasn't a risk of going to prison (even that one sometimes doesn't work) because as far as the make brain is concerned once the sex organs are there a female is fair game and the younger they are the more and better babby they can form.

I'm not advocating for sexual relationships between pubescent girls and adult men (in fact I think that that's generally a very bad idea for any society more socially complex than an agrarian one), just mentioning that adolescence as an intermediate period between childhood and adulthood is a relatively new social phenomenon - it used to be that females were children until menarche and women thereafter but the current view in western society is much more nuanced.

>asian

lel

Advent of liberalism?

lol

Please learn what a meme is before using the word again.

Maybe not favorably but sometimes legal. In Spain the age of consent is 13.

>germanics
>germanic
>germanic

Somebody learned a new word.

That means the Enlightenment

>Shit that I made up today.

Dank post, brah.

If you wanna be jailed as pedo, yes.

>tomb raiders

Jailed for what?

Is this why the stupid daddy/little girl fetish stuff exists?

Cause judges dont like old guys fucking 13 yos.

Lord Byron:
George Gordon Byron was a romantic poet, described by Goethe as “undoubtedly the greatest genius of our century”. Byron was attracted to both young boys and girls. Cromption (1985) covers his relationships with young boys in detail. Bullough (1990), p. 72 summarizes:

George Gordon Byron [1788-1824], or Lord Byron, was attached to Nicolo Giraud, a young French-Greek lad who had been a model for the painter Lusieri before Byron found him. Byron left him 7,000 pounds in his will. When Byron returned to Italy, he became involved with a number of boys in Venice but eventually settled on Loukas Chalandritsanos, age 15, who was with him when he was killed.

Byron’s To Ianthe is an effusive paean to the beauty of an a 11-year-old girl, with whom he was enamored:

Charlotte Harley, at eleven, was at the age of promise which most moved him, the child on the edge of puberty.
He became temporarily obsessed with Charlotte just as, a few months later, he was fleetingly besotted with his ‘petite cousine’, seven-year-old, black-eyed, black-haired Eliza Byron, plotting to buy toys for her and take her to the theatre. Lady Oxford’s daughter Charlotte is the subject of the famous and much anthologised five stanzas ‘To Ianthe’, fragile flower of the narcissus. He addresses her as his ‘Young Peri of the West!’ In these stanzas, published as a preface to the seventh edition of Childe Harold, Byron celebrates the girl’s evasive charm and addresses the painful ambiguities of their relationship:
‘Oh! let that eye, which, wild as the Gazelle’s,
Now brightly bold or beautifully shy,
Wins as it wanders, dazzles where it dwells,
Glance o’er this page; nor to my verse deny
That smile for which my breast might vainly sigh,
Could I to thee be ever more than friend:
This much, dear maid, accord; nor question why
To one so young my strain I would commend,
But bid me with my wreath one matchless lily
blend.’

Mark Twain:
Perhaps also somehow associated with his increasing age was his constant and almost compulsive interest in little girls. On his first trip to Bermuda in 1908 he made a close friend of Margaret Blackmer; on the second, he discovered Irene Gerken. As Miss Lyon described him, “his first interest when he goes to a new place is to find little girls” and “off he goes with a flash when he sees a new pair of slim little legs appear; and if the little girl wears butterfly bows of ribbon on the back of her head then his delirium is complete.” He organized this “harem” into the Aquarium Club and gave each member an angel-fish pin. Clara was appointed the “Mother Superior” and Miss Lyon “The Chatelaine” of the group, and the list of M.A.’s (Members of the Aquarium) swelled to a dozen. Clemens transcribed their names into his notebook?Dorothy Butes, Dorothy Quick, Dorothy Harvey, Dorothy Sturgis, Hellen Martin, Helen Allen, Irene Gerken, Margaret Blackmer, Louise Paine, Frances Nunnally, Jean Spurr, and Marjorie Breckenridge?careful to note the girls’ ages, eleven and a half to seventeen years, averaging thirteen years. They visited him in a steady stream throughout 1908, but less frequently than his letters implored them to.
The best measure of his preoccupation was the energy and emotion which he poured into his letters to the angel fish. Of all the letters Clemens is now known to have written in 1908, ninety-four were to Members of the Aquarium?almost half the total correspondence. Almost always they were long, chatty, childlike letters, frequently composed over a number of days. All pleaded for visits.

Sex is power.

John Ruskin:
Victorian writer and art critic, described by Tolstoy as “one of the most remarkable men not only of England and of our generation, but of all countries and times.” Ruskin’s one marriage fell apart after he saw his wife’s nude body, which disgusted him. He met nine-year-old Rose La Touche in 1858, became her tutor, and soon thereafter fell in love. His autobiography suggests that he fell in love by 1860 at the latest, when Rose would have been about eleven

When Rose moved away in 1862, he wrote: “They took the child away from me ? . . . and since that day of April 1862, I have never had one happy hour, ? all my work has been wrecked ? all my usefulness taken from me . . .” . He would carry letters from Rose in his breast pocket, the first of which was sent when she was thirteen. He also reprinted this first letter in his autobiography, alongside an account of their meeting (Ruskin, 1907):

So presently the drawing-room door opened, and Rosie came in, quietly taking stock of me with her blue eyes as she walked across the room; gave me her hand, as a good dog gives its paw, and then stood a little back. Nine years old, on 3rd January, 1858, thus now rising towards ten ; neither tall nor short for her age; a little stiff in her way of standing. The eyes rather deep blue at that time, and fuller and softer than afterwards. Lips perfectly lovely in profile ; ? a little too wide, and hard in edge, seen in front ; the rest of the features what a fair, well-bred Irish girl’s usually are; the hair, perhaps, more graceful in short curl round the forehead, and softer than one sees often, in the close-bound tresses above the neck. […]

Ruskin’s preference was for girls 10 to 16:

But I like my girls from ten to sixteen?allowing of 17 or 18 as long as they’re not in love with anybody but me.?I’ve got some darlings of 8?12?14?just now, and my pigwiggina here?12?who fetches my wood and is learning to play my bells

It's because otherwise gypsies would cause undesired problem and raise the crime rates. Nobody cares about gypsies when they're not playing funny music so they can rape all the children they want as long as it's gypsy children, the police doesn't want to get involved with subhumans. Local population will deal with them if they try something funny with the payos, but this is almost never necessary since gypsies mostly keep to themselves and their ghetos.

Doesn't matter if they like it or not, the law is the law and no laws are being broken.

>tomb raiders

I like that one so much that I'm stealing it despite being a tomb raider myself.

And the law does not like old guys fucking 13 yos.

Also unless they've changed it you have to be a minor yourself to benefit from the 13 years old age of consent. It's higher if you're 18+.

Yes but they were usually married and had the full approval of her parents. Just keep that in mind the next time you scope out the local middle school

>Asian gang
fuck off PC UK shits

What the fuck is PC about that?

>i like blonde girls, therefore every girl on the planet should be blonde
>own opinions, preferences, and artificial laws supercede biology and nature

that is exactly what the nazis thought, that their preferences and opinions are above all

humans did not invent sexual reproduction
humans perceive that they can control something that is beyond them

the female biological age of reproduction is universal throughout mammals and commences with the first period

humans have no right to go against another persons biological processes

and outside of germania, humans universally accepted the natural reproductive age for females was at the onset of the period

Referring to Muslim Pakistani's as 'Asians' is not PC according to you?

Is anything about that pic supposed to make me not just see a dad and a daughter?

>his first interest when he goes to a new place is to find little girls

Ahh to live in a more innocent time, when you could describe a man like that and no one would jump to the conclusion that he was boning them. Lolis are love, lolis are life.

That pic is the most based thing I've ever seen.

You can have it friend. It's yours.

Not at all? Calling them Asian suggests they're rapists because of race rather than religion. Pretty /pol/tier

They're too close in age

That's what brits call people from the sub-continent and Pakistan. Been that since the days of the empire.

As a Brit it always bugged me. Someone describes a guy as Asian, and I have to ask if he's Asian Asian or Indian-y Asian.

In Estonia the age of consent is 14, in Sweden it's 15.

Thanks, Lori.

Frowned upon doesn't necessarily mean illegal.

bump for intellectual pedophilia

that is a shit excuse they probably received a bribe

Good post, keep posting.

No, no they fucking wouldn't. A pedophile is a person who is primarily attracted to prepubescent kids. Being attracted to pubescent girls below the age of 18 is perfectly natural and not labeled as a disorder by virtually all sexologists and psychiatrists.

Until 20th century, if a girl had bled, she was seen fit for marriage.

No one fucked literal children like Muhammad if that's what you are asking.

This is a fucking meme. People expected to live until their 60s after the agricultural revolution. Life expectancy was so low due to high infant mortality rates.

Keep in mind when reading accounts from before the modern era, that married does not mean fucking.

>implying Pakistan isn't in Asia
>implying Asian isn't litterally what everyone calls them
>implying they're trying to cover anything up by calling them that

You and I both know that the newspapers editors had a conversation about what to use in the newspaper. And we both know they explicitly stated that they should not use the word muslim.

But every single person in the UK who read that headline, knew exactly who and what it was referring to.

The US is pure.

Pure, Puritan.

>implying Asian isn't litterally what everyone calls them
Everybody calls them sandniggers.

How can somebody invest so much time in writing utter bullshit? I know this is Veeky Forums but I'm still astounished by the levels of autism on this site

As if the readers can't figure out they were Pakis by looking at the photos and the names.

Is there a source for these?

It was considered scandalous when a nobleman fucked a thirteen year old Byzantine princess before she was considered old enough.

>thirteen
She was like 7 and died of internal bleeding.

yea, user forgot the part about Germanics liking piss porn

I mean wtf?!?!

You sure? I must have mixed it up with someone else. Do you have a link to it? I only remember reading about it in a document.