Can we have a thread about animals in fashion? First, I'm not a PETA warrior or some shit and I don't want to pressure anyone to anything. I just wanna have a thread about your thoughts on animal products in fashion like leather and fur.
I stopped buying leather products last year and realized most faux leather products like belts and shoes ae utter shit and went full synthetic with both. Never wore anything fur related as I always thought it lookes tacky as shit and is exclusively for dumb basic bitches and chads. I don't know man, leather and fur just feels like hillybilly tier to me, let alone I can't stand animal abuse shit (yeyea, also started eating vegan last year but thats not the point here) like do you guys think about the animals used in your clothing? Or the humans in 3rd world countries that make them? I honestly don't think about the later right now, I feel it would limit my purchases to much at this moment. Hoe important is this moral apsect to you guys when it comes to Veeky Forums? If at all?
Agree that fur is tacky, but I could never stop buying leather.
Jaxson Ward
OP here, I am also very interested in the defining differences between fascism and national socialism and would very much like to know if at some point in time in some place it will be appropriate to mutilate myself with tattoos.
Angel Bennett
fuck off nazi scum
Parker Wright
>create a movement against meat produced clothing >your non meat product gets exclusive 'vegan' label and designers raise price Thanks social movement
Tyler Garcia
How much leather stuff do you guys even have? For me it was belts and some shoes only.. Belts are cool in faux, dress shoes are fucking terrible as far as I've tested
John Young
I think it's fine to wear fur and leather, the problem is that there are too many people in today's society, too much outsourcing and deregulation and all of this makes the situation a big complicated unethical clusterfuck. Living in a tribe of ~100 people with crops and cattle, going hunting in the nearby woods and producing clothes that will last many years from the animals which one has tended to all their life and always treated with respect or has encountered as an equal and slain in the wild seems like a very ethical lifestyle.
Logan Hughes
agree
Luke Martinez
I reduced my meat consumption heavily in the last few years but I don't really think about this when buying clothes I've never worn fur-anything but leather shoes are kind of a must for me Is there any difference in where the leather is sourced between mass produced garbage and brands such as red wing etc.?
Ryan Wright
>leather source
Not really.
When cattle get taken in for slaughter, the skin comes off after the viscera comes out. It gets tossed into brine tanks and hauled off to the hide processor. Here the hide gets fed into a scraper which gets the fat off and divides the hide into top grain and mids of varying thicknesses or leaves it as is for full grain. It gets spit out of this machine into barrels for tanning.
After its chemically tanned its dried, then worked on automated equipment to soften it then it gets sent off for grading.
This is where the cost comes from. Hides are seperated into grades based on cut and grain and then wholeness: rips, holes, and size/shape; and quality: branding marks, scars, texture, and hand feel or drape.
The better the quality the higher that batch gets at auction and distribution.
Your redwing shoe leather as high quality as it is, I gaurantee you, came from a cow that grew up, ate, and died next to a cow that ended up graded C and turned into a Payless Shoes bargain bin purse.
>sauce: furrier by trade
Asher Jenkins
In a society where meat consumption is a thing it makes no sense to not use every part of the animal.
Furthermore, if you toss your leather jacket in the landfill and come back in 20 years youll find the synthetic thread and zippers and buttons. Throw your faux leather jacket in the landfill and an alien civilation that excavates it 12,000 years after we nuke ourselves will have a nice vintage human jacket to wear after they hose it off.
Just look at Patagonia, their own research shows that washing synthetic clothing is contributing to bioaccumulation of plastics in our foodchains. But every vegan has a fuzzy fleece hoodie. (Granted a good portion of those freaks rarely wash their clothes)
I like leather and fur. I am a fourth generation furrier by trade. Its my livelihood.
Zachary Adams
I'm big on animal rights but see no problem with fur and leather as long as it's not sourced in some horrific manner like skinning the animal alive or whatever. I think pollution is a much bigger problem.
Cameron Hughes
this, for every aspect of life to be honest
Leo Wilson
>skinning the animal alive >buying fur from china
Luis Wright
thanks user, appreciate your knowledge
Let's stay with shoes, I assume at least 99% of the leather used is a byproduct of our meat consumption and not farmed for leather?
Colton Peterson
I think about it occasionally. Like I'll look at my shoes and think of how sad it is that this nice happy animal had to die for them to be made. And how doublly sad it is that these shoes get beat to shit and eventually thrown out like it's just a piece of fabric, not a part of a real creature. I put myself in the animal's shoes (hooves?) and it's usually a bummer.
But I like leather.
Lincoln Martin
I'm on a vegan diet, but have seriously trouble abandoning leather, wool, down and silk at this point, despite the cruelty related.
It feels like I'd be left with shitty synthetics besides cotton/linen for basics and summer wear. And currently my narcissism and fashion arrogance beats out animal rights in my head.
Send help.
Connor Fisher
Leather and fur are overrated and kind of shite anyway. I don't think I've ever seen fur where I was legitimately impressed. Leather shoes make me wretch, especially when fuccbois try to coord them with chinos. Leather jackets are pretty badass but as far as I can tell there's nothing in genuine leather that imitation leather lacks.
Juan Evans
I agree, I hate animal abuse. Unfortunately quality leather boots/shoes are top tier. I definitely will not wear fur.
Blake James
Leather shoes make you wretch? What is wrong with you?
Daniel Johnson
Using the fur of an animal is objectively better consumption than meat. It’ll last longer than a meal. Even the 60 mink used to make a coat would have greater and longer use than their carcasses for food.
Jack Anderson
I am agreeing with most other people in this thread. But I do love me some leather shoes. I do wear fur but it's mainly faux since nobody really sells real fur these days.
Blake Rodriguez
yes blame those fighting the system, what a good little boy you are!
James Gutierrez
Thanks for the proof that veganism is pseudomoralism.
>I care about animals >I don't care about humans
Benjamin Jones
Would wool go be non-vegan? You're not taking the sheep's life, but it is part of an animal
Ryder Garcia
Nothing wrong at all with using fur, I don't think. As long as it's humanely captured, killed, and it's an animal that isn't endangered and is in fact actually considered a pest (Wolves, coyotes, raccoons, geese, etc.) then I don't mind. It's sad, but it's nature. These animals are gonna be killed one way or another, may as well use their fur. If it were a domesticated animal, obviously I'd feel terrible, but since it's a wild animal I don't mind. These animals attack livestock, farmers, people, domesticated dogs/cats, and some states have even placed bounties to help hunt over-populated animals that damage the ecosystem. I live in Pennsylvania, and up the Poconos Mountains there are literally fox's/coyotes that roam the street at night, sometimes day.That's how much of a pest they are. I don't mind leather being used for a certain way of fashion, however I do believe giant fur/mink coats are tacky. I only prefer functional fur coats. Honestly, I hate faggot protesters because they really don't seem to understand any of this shit as they live in big cities and have never actually explored a forest or done any activities. They just pour blood on you and call you the murderer.
What system? Are you trying to covert the entire world into vegetarianism?
Jack Bennett
vegans refuse all animal related products iirc including no dairy so i'd assume wool is out too
Alexander King
the meat and dairy industry, the main goals are to reduce consumption of these products due to the disastrous environmental impact
Jordan White
It is, but by all means buck convention and rebel against stupidity.
Connor Sanchez
no wool is not vegan
they usually leave sheep open wound's and let bugs and shit fuck with it
Grayson Sullivan
Good taste? I dunno
Cameron Cooper
Hey guys I'm actually interested now, what could I wear as an outfit that would be completely vegan friendly?
Leo Baker
be one with the earth and just wear leaves, man
Cooper Davis
...
Joseph Mitchell
Just wear synthetic materials, many of which are derived from petroleum, a non-renewable resource, unlike y'know, modern fur which is renewable and biodegradable, as well as being a natural resource. Hell, let's just cut animals from everything, including food, medical testing, clothes, fuck it! Instead of actually looking for humane ways to capture and hunt animals, let's just do shit that is fundamentally anti-ecological. That's the smarter, vegan friendly way, isn't it? You're retarded.
Anthony Gonzalez
My dream.
Chase Myers
Or just wear natural based materials like Cotton, Rubber, Cactus Silk esc...
William Bailey
t. Someone who's never sheared a sheep before
Nathaniel Carter
Nah sorry, gonna stick with my canada goose jacket that was humanely made instead of stupid and mindless alternatives that either harm the environment or don't keep me as warm as my current humanely made jackets do.
Ryder Cook
>canada goose >humanely made Nice fucking b88
Kayden Clark
Prove to me canada goose jackets are inhumanely made.
Where is the proof that that is a canada goose farm? PETA is a unreliable source as well, and has been known for being inhumane in the past, so how do you feel about being a hypocrite? Your opinion is void. There is no proof this is a Canada Goose supplier, and PETA is a lying, piece of shit company known for animal abuse. Is it wrong what those men are doing and how they are not humanely killing the animals? Yes, of course.
>Calls PETA untrustworthy >Posts Huffingtonpost as a valid source Ok user enjoy living in your dreamworld.
Leo Fisher
delusional
you are grasping at whatever you can to justify the murder of animals
if you are gonna be a sociopath at least own it
Caleb Peterson
no, you are im not trying to wipe out animal use for spooky ethics, im trying to REDUCE use for the planet watch cowspiracy, the production of animal based goods is really bad..
Logan Morgan
You think they don't know that? "Deep" misanthropy is the fucking centerpiece of the vegan aesthetic Somehow they STILL don't realize how obnoxious it makes them.
or ecology???? veganism is good for the environment
Lucas Allen
correlation =/= causation
supporting the animal agriculture industry does more damage to human beings and the earth dooming everybody including human beings
humans are animals as well
the only difference is they can consent
Jacob Rodriguez
what a fucking awful post
Julian Russell
Well yeah, when animals are overpopulated and are damaging the ecosystem, naturally we're gonna kill them. I'm not saying kill giraffes or elephants in Africa, I'm saying kill animals like raccoons, foxes, coyotes, wolves, bobcats, etc. when they become overpopulated in our state. Of course, you're probably a sheltered, spoiled white guy who lives in a nice suburban home in a city, and has never actually done any sort of outdoor activities or lived near any sort of forest, and likes to force their views onto other people. Honestly man, you're just a moron trying to guilt trip me by saying I'm a murderer and a sociopath. Refer to here as an example: Coyote populations are only rising and are migrating into other areas. It even specifically says "The ability of Coyotes to exploit human resources allows them to occupy urban areas." But of course, you care more about guilt tripping than humanly slaying an animal that is populating into our lands because you're sheltered and retarded. iucnredlist.org/details/3745/0
Carter Morgan
you're right you did make one
Colton Perez
ahahw wow i sure have been told xD
Wyatt Collins
>humanly slaying an animal how is this done?
Anthony King
shocked with electricity before slitting throats
Parker Morales
so if someone shocked you or i with electricity and slit our throats it would be humane?
after all less carbon footprint?
Levi Murphy
Rubber legtraps, and a shot to the head. Simple as that. Quick, humane way.
Nathan Rodriguez
>There are no current threats to Coyote populations throughout their range. Local reductions are temporary and their range has been expanding. Conservation measures have not been needed to maintain viable populations. Coyotes adapt to human environs and occupy most habitats, including urban areas. Hybridization with dogs may be a threat near urban areas. Genetic contamination between dogs, Coyotes, and Grey Wolves may be occurring in north-eastern U.S. Hybridization between Coyotes and Red Wolves is problematic for Red Wolf recovery in south-eastern U.S. needless death
Josiah Garcia
no such thing as 'humane' death
Sebastian Ortiz
I'll have you know that I'm on a strict raw organic ketogenic paleo-vegan diet.
Jayden Russell
>elephants >not damaging the ecosystem WEW
Jose Carter
are you stupid? What planet do you live on, Uranus?
Joseph Hernandez
you can't humanely kill something (animals) that doesnt wish to die
wake up
Charles Flores
>Well yeah, when animals are overpopulated and are damaging the ecosystem, naturally we're gonna kill them.
just because something is 'natural' doesn't mean it should be done viruses are natural poison ivy is natural sociopaths are naturally inclined to have the desire to murder people
does that mean we should invite or accept those things?
if you really were in support of 'population control' then wouldn't you just sedate the animals and sterilize them? 'convenience' does not justify the murder of a living being with sentience
i'm not trying to 'guilt trip' you, i'm giving you logic and reason and telling you to consider alternatives, if you are a sociopath and do not have empathy for animals or humans there is nothing else to say. but if you have empathy for an animal, why be selective about it? why kill coyotes and foxes but not dogs or cats? the 'population control' argument is an excuse as stated with the sterilization over flat out murder.
humane slaying doesn't exist, there is no need to murder the animals we do not need to kill coyotes to survive they do not want to be 'killed' regardless of whether or not it's 'humane'
we have a 'natural' ecosystem and our hunting and pollution has only damaged it
fission-fusion adaptation has occurred in coyotes after being the target of hunter throughout decades.
do you believe in 'humanely' killing children in order to reduce over population? would you be for china doing it?
so you don't support animal agriculture? because the reason cows are 'overpopulated' is due to the supply and demand and forced impregnation in order to continue to cycle of suffering and death for meat and dairy
population control doesn't work or else the coyote or other species you named would almost be extinct
Cameron Brooks
I like my crocodile double monks.
Dont like it? Go eat a dick and fuck off.
Adam Allen
attention whore
Hunter Hughes
Fashion industry >child labour >pollution from textile mills Most of the people I see in Canada Goose coats are Asian. Either that or plain Janes. There is so much consumer overload in our society.
I buy few pieces but as high end as I can afford at the time. It would be difficult for me to take any stick for my leather Vibergs that I'll have for decades from someone that owns truckloads of plastic junk like tech gadgets and lives with 3 cats.
Julian Nelson
there's a lot of dumb shit that gets posted here but this takes the cake good job
Jacob Clark
>if you really were in support of 'population control' then wouldn't you just sedate the animals and sterilize them?
If you REALLY believe that sterilzation, which with livestock is usually castration, is somehow less painful than killing them outright via a cull, you're delusional.
John Mitchell
THEY'RE FUCKING ANIMALS
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
t. a literal vegetarian
Nathaniel Powell
you only tackled one component of what i said
animal castration is not inhumane if it spares the deaths of offspring that have not been born yet, vegans aren't against fixing their pets
animal death via human is inhumane if it is already alive
Parker Rogers
what
what is the difference between human and coyotes that make it acceptable to kill non-human animals?
Eli Wright
oh gee I dunno consciousness and abstract thought? LOL
Lincoln White
First things first, a virus isn't the same thing as hunting and killing an overpopulated animal and using their bodyparts. Not only that, I'm not a sociopath, and I don't have any desire to murder people because I'm mentally sane. Hell, I don't even hunt, I just hike, go kayaking, and be comfy in my nice jacket. I'm with you, I can't look at videos of animals being killed because it's just too fucking uncomfortable, and I don't think I could kill one either. I'd be the same with videos of members of ISIS being shot in the face, I don't want to see it, nor do I want to be the one doing the shooting, but it needs to be done. We don't kill dogs or cats because they're domesticated, they (usually) have enough intelligence to just be "Okay, I'm gonna back the fuck off and be a good kitty/puppy and relax." Coyotes/foxes/wolves on the other hand? They kill domesticated animals/people. There are videos of it happening in suburban neighborhoods at night. There are also videos of coyotes attempting to lure domesticated animals/people away from their area so they can ambush them and kill them with other coyotes. I truly am with you on that fact that if an animal is in anyway not threatening/overpopulated at all, we shouldn't touch it, even if it's at a stable population. But if you're going to be a farmer, you're gonna have to kill animals to keep them away from your animals. Coyotes are the number one predator problem for ranchers, they prey on new-born calves and lambs. I don't support killing children because a child is completely different from a wild animal, but I do believe there should be something ethical in place to help limit births and over pop., that doesn't involve murdering babies. Honestly, I can't say anything for the sterilization idea because I'm not educated enough to even know if that could work or not, but the current system we have right now does work. I think animal agriculture is a completely different situation as well.
Gabriel Murphy
>animal death >inhumane >anything about an animal >being human or inhuman Yeah, see, this is your problem right here.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to commit genocide on millions of helpless micro-organisms on my hands. It's very inhumane of me.
Evan King
Fuck, I formatted this terrible. Apologies, I thought I double spaced between sentences.
Luke Gray
really makes you think
Luis Ramirez
You vegans argue that anything that causes pain and suffering to animals is de-facto cruelty, justifiable or not.
By your own belief system's credo, what you suppose is inhuman and cruel by default
>vegans aren't against fixing their pets
Vegans are against having pets at all.
Speaking of pets though, animals will still have to die at slaughterhouses, considering that most of our pets are obligate carnivores.
Oh, and on that note, we'd still have shitloads of farms, because animal shit is the best natural fertilizer, and you know you chemophobic vegans won't eat anything "unnatural"
Samuel Butler
>Coyotes are opportunistic, generalist predators that eat a variety of food items, typically consuming items in relation to changes in availability. Coyotes eat foods ranging from fruit and insects to large ungulates and livestock. Livestock and wild ungulates may often be represented in coyote stomachs and scats as carrion, but predation on large ungulates (native and domestic) does occur (Andelt 1987). Predation by Coyotes on neonates of native ungulates can be high during fawning (Andelt 1987). Coyotes in suburban areas are adept at exploiting human-made food resources and will readily consume dog food or other human-related items.
Oh alright don't include the part that proves my point.
James Ramirez
Yeah, and? Your ability to imagine such a world doesn't make it real. As a society we do not have that connection to nature, and sadly, we cannot buy our way back into it. Fur isn't "captured" man. Those animals you listed would never be used for clothing except for extremely niche/local markets because of their "dirty", commonplace reputation. If that's the way to do it around your neck of the woods, more power to ya. I grew up in the forest. We're talking about the massive senseless slaughter factories which make up the majority of the market. Not a small scale neighborhood trying to protect their pets and livestock.
You guys are kind of living in a dream world. This fairy tale you have about a trapper bringing hides to trade on the market... Doesn't exist.
Lincoln Phillips
>India doing that to cows Pretty sure they find them sacred or whatever there.
Ian Turner
>Doesn't know about crop cycling
Isaac Lopez
In the tourism brochure yeah. Come on man, Where's your cynicism.
Andrew Mitchell
go to bed greg
Benjamin Thomas
You still need fertilizer for that, you AG101 flunkie.
Evan Scott
First things first, much respect to you for growing up in the forest, I don't think people appreciate the woods or nature that much anymore. As for slaughterhouses, I agree that animals need painkillers and to be sedated before being killed because it's fucking disgusting when they're killed alive, such as the preparation of halal meat. I also think that animal abuse is completely disgusting and that farms who mistreat animals are filled with complete scumbags.
>Those animals you listed would never be used for clothing I can name multiple brands/stores that use those animals, and I know multiple people who wear fur. My coat has coyote fur and down. Whenever I go into the city in Philadelphia, I see tons of people with fur coats.
Jayden Barnes
I left it at my job where it belongs.
Bentley Robinson
Anf that's where you stop pouring your family's manure out into the ocean and put it to good use in the fields.
Dylan Davis
It only flows into the oceans because factory farms (Both plant and meat) don't feel the sting when they get fined for manure/pesticides leeching into the water table/tributaries.
That's why I'm more of an advocate for abolishing factory farms and reverting back to a society in which gardening is taught as part of a mandatory home ec course.
do you find it morally acceptable to kill any human beings who don't have 'abstract thought'? those with autism? down syndrome? those in vegetative states? mentally disabled people? indigenous tribes people who are not able to reciprocate or conform to first world civilizations?
google search 'name the trait fallacy'
no it's not ANYTHING that causes pain or suffering to animals it's UNNECESSARY pain and suffering
we do not need to eat meat to survive or wear leather in order to survive
>Vegans are against having pets that is incorrect, vegans are for reducing the unnecessary suffering and death of animals if an animal is going to die in a pound, most vegans would most likely prefer to have someone take the pet and take care of it then to let it be put down. though they themselves are not obligated to, a vegan is for removing meat and animals products from their consumption, they aren't obligated to become an animal shelter worker but in general are against unnecessary death and suffering if an animal has cancer and will live a life of agony that is a different matter
killing a coyote is different than euthanizing a pet as the coyote has a chance of survival naturally through their own means, a domesticated dog is different.
>animals will have to die at slaughterhouses dogs do not have to eat meat to live cats are a complicated matter, there are many alternatives yes they are required to eat meat though you still do not have to directly support the industry they have leftovers, scrapings, certain vegan-oriented brands regardless that is a completely different issue it isn't about instantly removing all animal products and killing ourselves it's reducing the amount as much as possible with what is not needed to live
Carson Phillips
>took the shearling redpill
Soyboys can get fucked animal products are the greatest. Even Adam and Eve wore leather jackets.
Jason Carter
The way I see it is a portion of leather goods is a by product of the meat industry, so why not make full use of it (i know this is not always the case). I’m also more interested in some rarer leathers e.g. Kangaroos which are not bred but selectively culled since we have a lot of em over here. Thoughts about culled animal fur e.g. ferals?
Leather synthetics are neat though as a concept, Rombaut does really cool things with it and Pinatex has the potential to go mainstream.
As a whole I’m more interested in the human cost of clothing production (slave labour, unfair wages and living conditions) and would like to improve that in my wardrobe before i even start considering animal cost.
Tyler Jenkins
I'm a vegetarian and I think you're retarded. Animals have an IQ of what? 20 max? I like humans, you don't.
Thomas Hall
if the coyotes aren't physically attacking people why go out and seek and hunt them for 'population control'? even if they are 'overpopulated' they have been hunted through out history and have only adapted to the system of being hunted and increased due to it
as i said fission-fusion adaptation
the only reason they have become overpopulated is due to the unnatural intervention of human hunters
Christian Collins
He never mentioned China so why are you bringing it up is beyond me, care to explain?