Can we just dwell on the fact that the entire "innocent Christians were martyred and butchered by the violent pagans!" narrative is largely untrue and inaccurate?
On the contrary, the early Christians were noted for their riotous and scandalous behaviour. And because they placed such an emphasis on martyrdom, the history of early Christianity is marked by followers attempting to achieve martyrdom by whatever means necessary. Because "persecution" of Christians was largely non-existent and unenforced, save for a brief period during the Diocletianic reforms (which only affected those Christians in Asia Minor, the Levant, and and Egypt, whereas Christians in Egypt, Greece, the Balkans, and Europe were unaffected), Christians often resorted to purposefully engineer their own martyrdom by attacking and vandalizing pagan temples, harassing or killing pagan priests, turning themselves in,
There is of course the famous account of the Christians turning themselves in to the Proconsul of Asia in 185 CE and demanded to be executed; in response, the Proconsul executed a few of them, and told the rest to jump off of cliffs or to hang themselves from ropes if they had such death wishes. Tertullian the Church Father himself stated that "a martyr's death day is actually his birth-day". The Christians were anything but innocent lambs led to slaughter.
On the other hand, the persecutions that ensued after Christian consolidation were of such a scale that most knowledge from Antiquity was purposefully destroyed, and only that which could be somewhat cast in a Christian light was allowed to survive.
This is acknowledged by most historians. Christian persecution definitely occurred but the Christians themselves were eager to die for the cause and the extent to which it occurred, such as Nero burning Christians in his garden for light, has been exaggerated.
But as you pointed out, persecution is a vital part of the Christian mode of thought. I once read an article wherein a priest was describing how the backlash against Mother Teresa in modern times might be a sign of her actual divinity. To Christians, worldly oppression is a sign that you're doing something right.
Grayson Diaz
>Christians often resorted to purposefully engineer their own martyrdom by attacking and vandalizing pagan temples, harassing or killing pagan priests, turning themselves in, That wasn't very common, and was strongly discouraged.
The rest of your revisionism is fascinating though.
>Tertullian the Church Father He was anathematized for heresy.
>On the other hand, the persecutions that ensued after Christian consolidation were of such a scale that most knowledge from Antiquity was purposefully destroyed What is the Imperial Library of Constantinople (built by a Christian emperor)?
Elijah Adams
Who are early Christians more like? "Syrian Refugees" in Germany and Europe or college indoctrinated liberals.
Cooper Rivera
>That wasn't very common, and was strongly discouraged.
It was only strongly discouraged in the third century after a number of councils at Carthage and Spain were convened to address the issue of those Christians who had denied their faith or recanted under torture or threat of death. Before that, it was very much encouraged and common-place.
>What is the Imperial Library of Constantinople (built by a Christian emperor)?
It's well established Christians destroyed most works of philosophy and science and art: most of the ones that were transcribed were those that could be construed in a Christian light. As an user in another thread once told, Plato and Aristotle were preserved because the religious establishment thought their ideas had somehow been divinely inspired to help the Greeks become acclimated to the Christian religion (which is ironic, for the Christian religion was always a Greek religion that only borrowed superficial elements of Judaism).
Tyler Ortiz
>What is the Imperial Library of Constantinople (built by a Christian emperor)? Wasnt he Arian?
John Rogers
>666
Fuck off, Satan stop trying to trick me
Angel Flores
That's right, but Christians were heavily persecuted enough as because they refused to worship the emperor or make sacrifices. Eventually the Roman government started issuing tickets when you made the sacrifice, and you could be asked to show yours on the stop, and if you didn't have one, you'd face death if you didn't have a good explanation.
More fanatical Christians look for pretense to die, but they were the outlier. Most did not want to die, and many renounced their faith under duress (after Christianity was legalized, whether these people should be accepted back, especially clergy who did this, became a major controversy--many Christians informed on their fellows under threat of torture, and they were the most disdained, but in the end it was said all could come back after suitable penance; the heresy saying they couldn't was part of the Montanist movement)
Ryder Gray
>He was anathematized for heresy
And yet he was instrumental in developing and advocating the concept of the Trinity. I know they say Christcucks pick and choose too much, but you're just ridiculous.
Jackson Rodriguez
>Before that, it was very much encouraged and common-place. Such baseless lies, no writing on martyrdom encouraged anyone to demand to be martyred.
>It's well established Christians destroyed most works of philosophy and science and art If "well established" = meme
Carson Edwards
>"NOT ALL CHRISTIANS, ONLY A FEW WERE EXTREMIST! MOST WERE PEACEFUL!"
Gee, I wonder what this reminds me of?
Colton Stewart
You yourself just proved my point and did a disservice to yours, idiot tripfag.
Gavin Garcia
No
Robert Moore
>Before that, it was very much encouraged and common-place. Source? >It's well established Christians destroyed most works of philosophy and science and art by whom? >As an user in another thread once told, oh, so nobody.
Attitudes of ancient Christianity to philosophy are varied, going to anti philosophical (Tertullian and some Gnostics) to accepting philosophy as articulating "some" truth that needs to be completed with the gospel (Several Fathers, East and West).
Also, Christians are persecuted to this day, just look at the recent executions by ISIS and the status of the Church in Istanbul
Joseph Green
He contributed the term. The idea that Christ, the Father and the Spirit are all God, is present from the early Church
We're talking about fanatics who want to be put to death, not fanatics bent on murdering people
Henry Nelson
Noxious marriage of the two.
Nathaniel Rivera
Yeah it's a shame that Christians aren't the majority in any extremely powerful, extremely affluent countries.
Look I get that what's happening to Christians in the middle-east right now is horrific but the clamoring for the title of "most oppressed" is pretty indicative of how important it is for Christians to think this. EVERY religion is persecuted in some form, in some area.
Aiden Rogers
I believe we are talking about Constantine II? If not, then tell me who we are talking about. Because it is my understanding that Constantine I was an Arian and was baptized by one, while Constantine II held Arian views
Thomas Taylor
Don't bother replying to Constantishill, he's a Christcuck tripfag well know for pulling shit out of his ass to defend his religion.
Angel Price
>To Christians, worldly oppression is a sign that you're doing something right.
Unless the opposite rhetoric serves them. Here in America where Christians are largely in power, I see bumper stickers and shit that say "BLESSED" and crap like that all the time. The notion is that you get $$$ and worldly level-ups by being faithful, and I hear that shit repeated all the time.
It's just Christian cronyism and nepotism getting retroactively justified as blessing from God, just like they do with the fact that they have the advantage of a community to fall back on.
Brayden Young
>Yeah it's a shame that Christians aren't the majority in any extremely powerful, extremely affluent countries. How does being the majority mean anything? Christians were the majority in some parts of the Ottoman Empire, yet were treated as second class citizens.
I dont remember the claim the OP disputed was "Christians are the most oppresed" but "Christian martyr narratives are mostly untrue". I'd like to see what narrative he is talking about and how it is mostly untrue. The only evidence he gives us is an anecdote of some Christians asking to be killed (arguing from this that all Christians were this way), and (in other threads) that Emperor worship wasnt a big deal anyway so they shouldve just go with it.
Thomas Harris
>Here in America where Christians are largely in power Really? Isnt Gay Marriage a popular meme there? >b-but Christians are for it too! Sure, and the same church that oficially supports it doesnt think Theism is required to be a Christian.
Carter Young
I was imposing the sentiment I hear very often from Christians, that Christians are the most persecuted group on Earth which proves something or other, on you when you didn't explicitly make that point so yeah my bad.
My point with the majority was that in the main part of christendom, at this point including nearly all of Europe and all of the Americas, Christians are not institutionally oppressed in anyway. It's these fringe churches left in an increasingly hostile, increasingly intolerant near east that are being treated horribly.
The usual narrative is that Christians were regularly fed to lions or spied on and hunted down in Rome but it's going to get vague at this point as these are mostly sunday school stories and everyone received a different version. As far as discrete historical events I can only think of the supposed crimes of Nero, which he probably wasn't actually guilty of.
Leo Sanchez
If Christian churches were forced to marry gay couples I could see that being an argument for real, honest to god persecution. As it stands it's a government thing and only the most liberal of protestant churches will do the ceremony.
Elijah Collins
>Christians are not institutionally oppressed in anyway. I dont see why someone would call modern Europe as "Christendom", considering most Christianity has become pretty vanilla and Islam is growing as a religion there. Or the Americas, where most countries have had anticlerical policies recently (Mexico coming to mind)
>It's these fringe churches left in an increasingly hostile, increasingly intolerant near east that are being treated horribly. I wouldnt call the Church of the Ecumenical Patriarch "fringe", but whatever
>The usual narrative... So youre disputing a usual narrative (which you admit is pretty vague) that is taught as "Sunday school stories"? Theyre stories for children, they arent supposed to be detailed in any way, or be accurate. >If Christian churches were forced to marry gay couples... Some Christian organizations are being forced to provide contraception to their employees. Would that be an argument for persecution?
Landon Cruz
>(which only affected those Christians in Asia Minor, the Levant, and and Egypt, whereas Christians in Egypt, Greece, the Balkans, and Europe were unaffected)
So Christians in Egypt were simultaneously persecuted and not persecuted?
Also, Satan.
Adrian Roberts
>Really? Isnt Gay Marriage a popular meme there?
Christians are still largely in power. You don't need to have a state that enforces anti-sodomy and anti-homosexuality laws for that to be true. The vast majority of the population still identifies as being one form of Christian or another, and their sentiments still run the show in many ways.
Julian Gutierrez
>b-but Christians are for it, too.
I never said that. The post I was responding to said that, to Christians, wordly oppresion (of christians, he was referring to martyrdom) is a sign that you're doing somethign right.
I then talked about the notion fo being "blessed" and getting things from God for being faithful, and how its prevalent here in America. I actually didn't bring up homosexuality in that post, and your greentext seems to match up with nothing I said.
Jacob King
>Some Christian organizations are being forced to provide contraception to their employees. Would that be an argument for persecution? Evidence?
Leo Ramirez
Much of the first world losing faith in Christianity is not what I would call persecution. It's Christendom historically at the very least and its influence, even in largely secular countries such as Denmark can't be denied.
>I wouldnt call the Church of the Ecumenical Patriarch "fringe"
I'm honestly not familiar with the controversy surrounding that but that's primarily not what I was talking about anyway. More the churches in Syria and Libya being executed by ISIS.
>So youre disputing a usual narrative (which you admit is pretty vague) that is taught as "Sunday school stories"? Theyre stories for children, they arent supposed to be detailed in any way, or be accurate.
It's a narrative that many people seriously nonetheless. To the point where it's regarded as basic fact.
>Some Christian organizations are being forced to provide contraception to their employees
Debatably, but these are the federal requirements for company sponsored health insurance I'm assuming. Where religions should get exemption from these legal codes is a sticky situation since you could, for example, have a Christian company exclude themselves from paying for an employee's STD treatment because they don't believe in pre-marital sex anyway. Maybe you don't have a problem with this, but it opens up avenues for abuse outside of the genuinely Christian companies.
It's a different situation from gay marriage. Where the ceremony itself is strictly optional and the absence of one does not exclude gay couples from obtaining certain legal rights.
Dominic Watson
>The vast majority of the population still identifies as being one form of Christian or another
That means nothing. Most are only nominally Christian, and as I already said in a post above, most only continue to attend religious services less out of devotion and more because it's considered to be 'quintessentially' American. That is, religion seen as something quaint and rustic. Hardly anyone, however, would care enough to actually enforce religiously-mandated policies or even live according to said religious tenets.
Zachary Sanchez
Well, since Christianity is correct, it ought to be promoted.
Parker Sanders
>Much of the first world losing faith in Christianity is not what I would call persecution. The first world loosing faith is a consequence of persecution. Like that suffered after several revolutions. >More the churches in Syria and Libya being executed by ISIS. I wouldnt call them fringe either, since some Orthodox and Catholic patriarchs suffer from the executions too. >It's a narrative that many people seriously nonetheless. It's still pretty vague and diverse. Also where are these people? >Debatably, but these are the federal requirements for company sponsored health insurance I'm assuming. It's actually the Little Sisters of the Poor, along with some Christian universities
Leo Adams
>The first world loosing faith is a consequence of persecution. Like that suffered after several revolutions.
I'd say the enlightenment is more responsible for the loss of Christian faith than the French Revolution but we could debate this for a long time.
>Also where are these people?
Just for fun, google "Christian persecution in Rome" and see what crops up.
We could debate just how fringe these middle eastern churches are but my main point is, and I'm not trying to sound callous, on the larger scale that hardly makes Christians the most persecuted group in the world. There are many other claimants to the title, such as Jews or native americans.
Angel Turner
No it isn't.
You're an idiot.
Christianity is not being persecuted in the First World, that's just the Christcuck delusional complex: even one bit of valid criticism is "persecution".
>It's actually the Little Sisters of the Poor, along with some Christian universities
And why exactly shouldn't they offer health insurance like all other companies do, if they employ people? This isn't a Christian nation, and what they are doing is denying services to others based on their own religion.
Colton Davis
This isn't what that user was referring to, but here's at least one example.
>I'd say the enlightenment is more responsible for the loss of Christian faith than the French Revolution Meh, one implied the other >google "Christian persecution in Rome" Wikipedia and Natgeo are the main sources, and they support the persecution thesis.
>on the larger scale that hardly makes Christians the most persecuted group in the world. It does make them a persecuted group, either right now or in the year 300, which is what the OP claimed was "mostly untrue"
Landon Hughes
>posts bird wearing a hat >complains about hat memes
Asher Russell
>And why exactly shouldn't they offer health insurance like all other companies do Because they are a Christian organization and it goes against their moral beliefs. and their employees are nuns. >This isn't a Christian nation Indeed, it is based on freedom of religion, and religion implies a moral code that ought to be respected. If you force a Christian to provide a service that goes against their moral code then you are violating their religious belief.
In fact you dont need to be "for" religion to see that forcing someone to do something they see as immoral is tyrannical.
Asher Cook
>their employees are nuns.
Ideally, the nuns would never have to even use health services that focus on sexual health and contraceptives, so what is the harm in offering such services, which are standard?
>you dont need to be "for" religion to see that forcing someone to do something they see as immoral is tyrannical.
Define 'immoral'. Christfags will pick and choose their definition of 'immorality' at whim. Is offering preventive care for sexual diseases immorality? Apparently so, considering how much the Catholic Church fights against condom usage, despite their proven efficacy in removing HIV and STD rates in the long-term; or how they decry family planning as evil in overcrowded and poverty-stricken nations.
On the other hand, secularized values promote offering basic health services that allow individuals to try to live life more enjoyably while being responsible. Much more sensible and efficient and MORAL.
Carson Taylor
>so what is the harm in offering such services, which are standard? It goes against their religious belief. >Define 'immoral'. I dont need to, since I didnt say it was immoral, just that their religious belief thinks it so. If I forced a Jew to feed pork to his children or prohibited him from circumsicion I would be acting tyranically against his religious beliefs, even though I dont consider eating pork or circumsicion as immoral. If you dont agree with that then you shouldnt live in a multicultural and multireligious country like America.
Xavier Hill
>It goes against their religious belief.
Not that guy, but that's not really sufficient reason. Should we provide special dispensation to ritualistically slaughter animals for religion? Or any other behaviours that violate our laws?
>Tertullian has been called "the father of Latin Christianity"[4][5] and "the founder of Western theology."[6]
Angel Lopez
Those laws shouldn't exist in the first place, that's the problem. Privately owned bakeries should be able to pick and choose which venues they cater for any reason. Governments forcing a religious private business to bake cakes for an event that violates their faith is tyranny.
Robert Torres
So is it tyranny to force JWs to let their kids have blood transfusions to save their fucking lives? That's against their religious beliefs.
Anthony Wright
Saving the life of a child is an obvious exception where governments have the right to step in. Don't try to equate that with laws making people bake wedding cakes.
Adam Thomas
>Here in America where Christians are largely in power protestants are wannabe christians, not the real deal > The notion is that you get $$$ and worldly level-ups by being faithful, and I hear that shit repeated all the time. That's an american protestants' invention, called the "prosperity gospel". Funny they call it that way, considering the Bible says whoever preaches a different gospel is anathema, and there is no mention of a prosperity gospel in the Bible. In truth, if you are a real christian (therefore, not a protestant) the world will do anything to work against you. God will allow the world to hurt you, and for pain an suffering to occur in your life, to test you and alllow you to gain sainthood. Under these premises it makes total sense that Christians see the world as being against them.
John Murphy
Christcucks are unbearable.
>"HE'S NOT A CHTISTIAN, ONLY [insert denomination] ARE TRUE CHRISTIANS!"
Kayden Ramirez
This is why it's ok Germany was not broadly punished for WW II as with WW I.
The few exploiting and leading the thing victimise the mass.
From the actual ***** satanic Bible: Of which I'm planning to write into a revised version: ,,The revised non-satanic satanic bible ''
14 The lie that is known to be a lie is half eradicated, but the lie that even intelligent persons accept as fact—the lie that has been inculcated in a little child at its mother’s knee—is more dangerous to contend against than a creeping pestilence! 15 Popular lies have ever been the most potent enemies of personal liberty. There is only one way to deal with them: Cut them out, to the very core, just as cancers. Exterminate them root and branch. Annihilate them, or they will us!
These are high standing texts. But sometimes it has things that demolish this. Even do just as it goes against in higher standing texts. Probably because it has to show it is the satanic book. Not the lovely extra-explanatory writings of Jesus and God.
So here I made a start in the revision. (Fire) The book of satan III verse 4.
At the moment the Catholic church is not an unfriendly institution. But they still have mistakes. The same in another way with other denominations.
Ian Foster
So you do acknowledge that law has a place over religious beliefs. Now it's just a matter of finding what you consider acceptable limits.
For the record, I do disagree with making them bake to the cake. Not because it's against their religion, but because it should be within their capabilities to say no because it's their fucking business.
Grayson Smith
I wouldn't feel about doing something about the texts just above ''''4'''' . Though they are a little off.
Jonathan Howard
No, it's called Prosperity Gospel and it's heresy.
Juan White
Fuck off, Catholiccuck, and take your unwarranted sense of superiority with you.
Luis Harris
>At the moment the Catholic church is not an unfriendly institution
Are we talking about the same Church? The Catholic Church I know of has cracked down on its own nuns for supposedly being too "feminist" (i.e. focusing too much on social issues); it channels funds to combat and restrict measures that are proven to improve quality of life simply because of outdated notions of sexuality (family planning, condom usage, sexual education, counseling services, etc.); funding and supporting movements that aim to restrict or take away the rights of homosexuals (in the Third World, they channel funds to leaders who have proposed that homosexuality be punishable by imprisonment or death; in developed countries, by supporting movements that would discriminate [allow businesses to refuse service because of "religious freedom" or repeal same-sex marriage]), as well as standing idly by and even protecting those involved in the child sex abuse scandals.
Funny, how the Catholic establishment in the U.S. will ally itself with supposed "heretics" and "schismatics" like Mormons and Protestants to form alliances to combat anything that it deems too "Progressive".
If you can still claim that despite all of the above, the Church is not unfriendly, then I would hate to see what you consider to be unfriendly at all.
Josiah Murphy
maybe we are not talking about the same church. I just recently saw a documentary about the Catholic church somewhere in the dark ages.
oehw, this was really bad.
Jonathan James
Hate to break it to you, but even in the Dark Ages, the Church was not the "saviour and guardian of knowledge" that it promotes itself to be... Most of the stuff was destroyed thanks to the religious establishment in the first place.
Lincoln Allen
>But as you pointed out, persecution is a vital part of the Christian mode of thought
A harsh truth that was one of the reasons I abandoned that stone-age ideology.
'Christian Media' is just a gigantic scam of ridiculously wealthy and powerful organizations trying to convince other Christians that desperately want to be martyr underdogs that ''''we are/wuz oppressed and shietz'''', in order to acquire more wealth and power.
Adrian Cox
This.
There is no "perseuction" of Christians in the developed world; there is no "War on Christmas/Easter", or whatever Christians believe. Most of these are just fears that are exploited by the huge Christian media industry in order to obtain more money. After all, creating the myth of Christian perseuction allows their low-grade products such as 'God's not Dead' to do so well.
Gabriel Adams
That is just what I said.
I already revised the satanic bible to the non-satanic satanic bible. Why change more anyway?
>Christians often resorted to purposefully engineer their own martyrdom by attacking and vandalizing pagan temples, harassing or killing pagan priests, turning themselves in,
This practice is condemned since the Apostolic Fathers
>666 Your true was revealed Satan,
I hope you will enjoy the lake of fire that God especially prepared for you.
Isaac Kelly
>On the contrary, the early Christians were noted for their riotous and scandalous behaviour. considering the nature of the governments they were rebelling against, I can hardly see this as bad. Take any person from a first world country today and put them in the place early christians were in and they would probably act pretty rebellious as well
Parker Nelson
>exclude themselves from paying for an employee's STD treatment b wait, why would any enmployer, christian or otherwise, pay for an enployee's std treatment? wtf?
Easton Flores
This is a history board, idiot. Historically, it makes perfect sense to designate certain Christian sects more "authentic" and others less.
Logan Hall
Because health insurance policy is often offered through employers, idiot.
