Does God have free will?

Yes, of course. Does God retreat into His sovereignty in order to allow us to express the sovereignty He has given us? Yes, of course.

It's not a dilemma. It's nonsense.

Nonsense is still nonsense even if you use the word "God" in it.

>Spouts just one theodicy solely based on the arguments of Aquino (not on the Bible)

>Thinks he's somehow worth hearing.

>It's nonsense.

That's because it is about omnipotence, a nonsense concept, as shown by the dilemma.

He is right. Omnipotence is illogical conception. It have no place in any kind of serious discussion. If God exist he isn't omnipotent.

No, it's just nonsense.

Omnipotence allows a person to do everything that requires power.

All things that require power.

A paradox is not a thing, and no amount of power can make a paradox real.

How about this for a test of power?

Can He speak the entire universe into existence in 6 days?

(yes)

Can He walk out of His grave three days after He is executed?

(yes)

Can He kill 185,000 soldiers in the blind of an eye?

(yes)

Can He drown the entire world?

(yes)

Need I go on?

> he is 3 but 1
I guess Nescafe violates laws of logic too, comrade Fedora?

Maximal good thesis is neato. Check it out

Creating rock that you can't lift requires power. Go into the mountains or mines and try to make one.

Well if you could actually address the philosophical issue rather than listing things that never happened and have no relevance that would be an excellent start.

You don't need omnipotence to do any of those things, in fact having to take 6 days to make a Universe and then needing a rest is a good indication you're not omnipotent.

C'mon senpai

> Need I go on?
Yes. You listed what? Four things? While claiming that God can do fucking anything? It is like saying that you are omniscient because you know a thing or a two. Why should we believe such claims?

>Judeo-christfags have never been able to resolve this dilemma kek
>dilemma

lol your new is showing summerfag, God could create a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it ONE MOMENT and yet be able to lift it perfectly well ANOTHER MOMENT.

You're not thinking with the fourth dimension (time) or adding it to the theoretical problem, like the simpleton you are.

Fucking apply yourself before you wreck yourself.

You know that's Arianism, right? Now you'll try to give me the water-steam-ice metaphor, but that's Modalism and heretical too.
>Christians unwittingly committing century-old heresies
>yet fedoras are the ones who misunderstand judeo-christian dogma

K...find me a glass of H2O that is liquid, steam and ice simultaneously, in the same place. Then we'll talk about the logic of the trinity.

> You're not thinking with the fourth dimension
How about doing both things at once?
Too hard for divine omnipotent being?

What about you, you from the past and you from the future time-traveling metaphor?

>both things at once?

Time is an illusion friend, everything ''is'' and ''isn't'' at once.

> H2O that is liquid, steam and ice simultaneously
What is triple point?

If man was created in the image of God, then yes. God does indeed have free will.

>r/atheism spook retard detected

(if I understand what you're asking)

If it's good, of course.

If it's bad, who are we to say he would want it? Who are we to imply that he's as blind as we are? I mean we're talking about God. I'm sure he knows a rotten piece from a good piece.

The same logic doesn't apply, because an individual's ego is a process arising from physical states. That's like taking a snapshot of a man running, then taking another of the man standing, then asking me where the "running" went.

It's not liquid, steam, and ice simultaneously, it's none of them in the process of almost becoming one of them. When the conditions change the states become distinct, and separate, which is absolutely heretical.

God made everything in the universe by speaking it into existence.

Every mountain there is.

That's not the question. The (insipid) question is "Can God God make X but not be able to pick up X?"

It's the condition that makes what God can do, making rocks ex nihilo, into a paradox of not being able to move that which He made; that cannot happen no matter how much power is plugged into the equation.

It's a stupid question.

Do it then. We'll judge you by the universe you create in 6 days.

Because you would desire to cease being a fool and reconcile with your maker while you yet can.

And now you are touching on one of the many issues that show God could not have free will.

If God is perfectly good, how can he make any decision that is not perfect and good?

One God manifested Himself as three persons; relational within Himself, and desiring to have a relationship with us.

It's really not complicated.

Father is God.
Son is God.
Spirit is God.
There is One God.

Because God has more dimensions than you, and more than you can perceive, you are a Flatlander insisting that my cube only looks like a series of six squares to you, even though I know full well it is one cube.

#rekt

/thread

A rock would need to infinitely large to defeat an unlimited amount of lifting power.

Asking this question is the same as asking if God can Sin. It is a contradiction. God cannot make a contradiction as He is perfect and is never wrong.

You're a disingenuous idiot. You asked the man to show you a triple point and he did.

Liar.

Exactly. I can give you a laundry list of things God cannot do.

And none of them are for a lack of power.

I'm not claiming to omnipotent.

If you can't grasp that a literal account of the creation story in Genesis is not compatible with an omnipotent God then you're lagging behind theologians from almost two millenia ago and if your only response is "you do it" then you are just a very silly person.

> It's a stupid question
How it is stupid? People can made a things that they can't move. See the Great Pyramids. What here is so illogical for you?! You can't imply that God somehow lacking and can't do what human perfectly able to do.

>3 things that are god
>but there is one god

This cannot be understood logically. You can say he operates in some higher level of reality or whatever but by our logic, it's a contradiction.

Which is why I made the initial point. God doesn't adhere to our laws of logic, so in whatever mystical way he's able to create a rock so heavy he can't lift, but he can lift it.

>How is it stupid.

Because you are.

The question, could God create a rock so heavy He could not lift it? The quick answer is "No." But the explanation is far more important to understand than the answer.

This question is based on a popular misunderstanding about the definitions of words like "almighty" or "omnipotent." These terms do not mean that God can do anything. Rather, they describe the amount of God's power. Power is the ability to effect change - to make something happen. God (being unlimited) has unlimited power, and the Bible affirms this (Job 11:7-11, 37:23; 2 Corinthians 6:18; Revelation 4:8; etc.). Therefore, God can do whatever is possible to be done. God cannot, however, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore, unless context indicates otherwise (e.g. Matthew 19:26 where man's ability is being shown in contrast to God's), impossibility means the same thing whether or not God is involved.

So, the first part of the question is based on a false idea - that God being almighty means that He can do anything. In fact, the Bible itself lists things God cannot do - like lie or deny Himself (Hebrews 6:18; 2 Timothy 2:13; Titus 1:2). The reason He cannot do these things is because of His nature and the nature of reality itself. God cannot do what is not actually possible to be done, like creating a two-sided triangle, or a married bachelor. Just because words can be strung together this way does not make the impossible possible - these things are contradictions, they are truly impossible in reality.

God doesn't make me, I was born from my parents.

Excuse me? I'M disingenuous??? I'm not the one making logical backflips with extradimensional reasoning here, buddy. Water that hasn't been compressed sufficiently isn't solid, if it hasn't been heated sufficiently it isn't vapor. It's not solid-vapor-liquid, it's H2O with potential to be each of the three, separately, based on environmental conditions. That's Modalism.

The Mystery of the Trinity maintains that phase changes are not necessary for the Father, Son, and Spirit to be God, because they're the same and never different based on mode. It's a paradox, and utter nonsense. If by papist logic the paradox of the trinity is coherent, the paradox of a rock bigger than God must be, too, and as both are nonsense they both ought to be thrown out altogether.

He can, but he doesn't want to.

Well,he created the earth,didn't he?

> It is a contradiction
That means that God can do only what he is able to do... which isn't different from us humans. Isn't it? Therefore his power is limited by a logic where all of the contradictions could exist.

Who would not exist without God. If we go all the way down the chain of causality, at the root we find God. You wouldn't exist without God. Nothing would exist without God.

> laundry list
Isn't enough to claim that God can do anything. What if you miss something that God just can't accomplish no matter what?

Nope.

See this.

I disagree, because the choice exists for Him, he just knows the outcome of said choice. In the bible he's described as light. Light shines on anything, so it may be seen. If what's seen in its entirety is not good...why would the creator of good choose it?

So the option to choose freely exists.

>If God is perfectly good, how can he make any decision that is not perfect and good?
That's the point though, he can't.

And if this leads to a discussion about His punishment, you have to recognize the definition of discipline.

Also if you are going to add the variable of the human in relation to human's creator, which in this context is God, human obviously knows less. Human struggles with control of himself. And struggles with the temptation to harm others like himself.

So God's discipline and punishment, or what you would might want to call "not good"...would it not be justified for something as flawed and short sighted as a "human."

I just realize how I sound like a total ass using the word "human" like this lol, but I'm trying to show the objective perspective because I know I'm flawed. I'm not God, I'm not arrogant enough to claim that I somehow have the higher perspective on this very topic of discussion. Especially when knowing how mankind struggles with simple disciplines, which contribute to my very limited understanding of what it would truly take to be a successful "creator."

There are things He cannot do. I explained this already. Read my post.

We've already dealt with that.

What a completely insane belief.

Speaking a universe into existence is not evidence of omnipotence.

How, exactly?

And why do you think God has to do things the way you tell Him to, again?

There is one threefold God.

This is not as complicated as you make it out to be.

You're a monkey trying to add 1 god plus 1 god plus 1 god and getting 3 gods.

Go to Veeky Forums, come back when you learn what a triple point is.

I don't miss anything by trusting in God.

What you're going to miss by not trusting in God.....welp.

>threefold

Elaborate. 3 Parts? 3 Modes? :^)

If all you've got is that it makes sense but it can't be understood with human reasoning, then we agree.

> God can do whatever is possible to be done
It isn't different from humans, did I omnipotent too because I can do anything that is possible for me, but otherwise can't do a shit? God can create the world, but fails at creation of heavy stones. I can't
create a world, but heavy stone is possible for me. Don't forget, that creating the stones that couldn't be lift by creator is a perfectly possible thing to do for many of us. It isn't some absurd shit like circle without a radius that just can't exist.

> Who would not exist without God.
Some other force would create them. No big deal.

>Speaking a universe into existence is not evidence of omnipotence.

An omnipotent being would have done it in an instant.

Three persons.

You don't need to believe that someone is all-powerful to trust him.

Aquinas pls go.

The concept of "god" is used in his cosmological argument as a logical self-referential point (paradox), and if you're going to use paradoxes anyway you may as well go with the simplest explanation and cut through all the bullshit.

>God existed infinitely, and has always existed.
>"Ok."
>God sprung into being from nothing and created everything from nothing.
>"So something can come from nothing, or exist infinitely without cause?"
>Yes.
>"If so, why does that particular paradox have to be a God that gets mad if I'm not circumcised? Why couldn't the universe come from nothing, or be self-referential in the same way with fewer needless, dubious complexities?"
>HE ROSE FROM THE GRAVE LALALALA MYSTERIOUS WAYS

A thoughtful one would do it as a guide for how we should live.

Work six days, take off the seventh.

A productive God would do it as an example.

Seed, time and harvest six years in a row, and let the land lay fallow the seventh.

A ruling God would do so as an indication of the things to come.

Six thousand years men try to rule over men, Jesus rules for the seventh.

Saying layers within layers within layers is not giving God near enough credit for the perfection He made.

You judge the creation by the broken, cursed, and dying world you were born on, not the world God made "in the beginning".

youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw
BAD ANALOGY PATRICK

You need to believe that not trusting Him to say what He will do, and then do it, when no power in heaven or earth can stop Him, is madness.

>St. Patrick compared The Trinity to three leaves on a single clover.

Bottom line if you try to lay this out in symbolic logic you get a degenerate equation. It doesn't and can't ever make sense. I'm not saying your god is stupid or doesn't exist, just that he clearly operates beyond the bounds of traditional logic.

> If we go all the way down the chain of causality, at the root we find God
Would it mean that God is responsible for everything and therefore sinners shouldn't suffering in hell because God is a first cause of every sin.

I am not religious, but I don't see how these kinds of proofs are a disproof of a god. An omnipotent god principally works outside the realms of logic. He invented logic.

Why are you applying human qualities to God?

He's not some bloke down the pub.

Everyone in hell is there for Unbelief.

All of their sins against God were forgiven at the cross.

What I told you is revealed in the bible to the ones who love God, and are called according to His purposes.

He is not like us.

We are made in His image.

> no power in heaven or earth can stop Him
Yes, but there can exist power from outside world that is known to God that just couldn't be stopped by him. Read the user here. If there exist some powerful force beyond all of the known world that would be impossible to oppose... God is fucked, because oppose such power would be a contradiction.

We can't understand it anyway. . .

ANYTHING THAT IS POSSIBLE.

Can you fly? Can you create something from nothing? Can you read minds? Gosh, sure is summer in here.

>The existence of one all powerful force is hard enough for people to come to grips with.

>Let me just add more to try and refute your point because I do not possess the intellectual capacity to do it genuinely.

Go back.

>God existed infinitely
>God sprung up into existence at some point

Go away.

You daft fuck.

We are saying God cannot sin.

Not that there exists some SuperGod who is going to kill God and save you wicked faggots from what you deserve; an eternity on fire.

Interesting assertions.

They aren't any closer to showing that an omnipotent God is a bit pooped and needs a rest after making just one universe.

The problem here is that. Why even trying to be a guide if you can literally implant necessary things into a people brains... Of course, he could be just like you said, messing with everything for strange reason. But you can never be sure. Everyone can claim that they are all-powerful, but doesn't really trying and we can never know if this is a lie, kind of genuine statement, pure insanity or everything at once.

God is also a first cause of unbelief.

The bible did not say God was tired.

It said He rested on the seventh, His work being done.

I told you that He rested on the seventh as a nod to us that we need to rest on the seventh.

Apparently everything went an infinite distance over your monkey brained head.

You buy a Real doll and every time you press her left thumb she says "I love you!".

How many times would you press her left thumb?

How many times until you realized how empty and hollow it was?

(Any more times than "zero" is pathetic)

Satan is.

"Did God really say that? No....."

You can follow your spiritual father to hell if you choose; I'm following my spiritual father to heaven.

Kicker is that I'm no better a person than you are.

Maybe worse!

> Can you fly?
What is airplanes?
> Can you create something from nothing?
Logically impossible.
> Can you read minds?
Logically impossible.

So which is it? Has god always been and always will be? Why can't the same be said of the universe, without brissing my dingus?

>le zoroastrianism is actually divine truth and not jewish-persian syncretic baggage meme

Do you celebrate Easter with eggs and rabbits, pagan?

> The existence of one all powerful force is hard enough for people to come to grips with.
There is no rule that there exist only one force. If there is one could be a second or a third, maybe your list is shared effort, that you attribute to one God for some bizarre reason.

>Apparently everything went an infinite distance over your monkey brained head.

There's no need to get quite so upset that a God needing six days to make a universe then taking a snooze is obviously incompatible with an omnipotent God.

> Satan is.
Created by God and therefore responsibility is on him. Should create him not to be a dick, I believe.

God's logic is not man's logic. Of course, he could do it in a way that would fit the criterias, how he would do that is mystery.

>it's an "user interprets Genesis as literal truth and not an appendix to the Enuma Elish" episode

Fly on your own without invention to help you.

>The Big Bang says otherwise

Perhaps based on the limit of our current knowledge. Doesn't mean that it is impossible.

Because of thermodynamics.

There only needs to be one.

> is mystery
With clear solution of God non-existence.

> Fly on your own without invention to help you.
Impossible for human, like for God impossible to create a stone that he can't wield.

God can defy every notion we have of cosmic order and logic and do both but can't keep you from sucking cock

> There only needs to be one.
Gods are beyond you so called needs.

> being that triggered by 1000 years old question
Christians are truly original SJW.