Number nine , Yohji , Kapital , Junya >>>>>>>> Undercover and Cav empt

>I like this thing. I think this thing as good as this other thing. These things are so good and I like them so much and they are very nice. So nice.
>FUCKING KILLYOURSELF IF YOU DISAGREE

>y-3
>yohji
gtfo

>FAR more interesting pieces than junya,

How do people like you exist?

Kapital >>> all the others.

For me.

funny, I would disagree. mimisis and utilitarian sensibilities have come to define quite a lot of "anti-fashion" japanese fashion, especially at the high level.

I can't believe you guys lol

disagree with what
there is no opinions in that post

They're all pretty much different brands you kekold.

The only similarities is that they're all "technically" Japanese brands.

>these brands are related only in the nationality of their creators
Yeah, they "Japanese" but I also think they share a similar design language that is distinctly Japanese (including cav empt).

he didn't say anything that disagrees with that you absolute fucking idiot
and they really don't
cav empt has basically stolen half of it's shit from undercover, number nine and junya so there is case maybe and nowadays undercovers is the same streetwear trash as cav empt but other than that it's all pretty far apart

holy fuck, I'm disagreeing that they are only related by having the same nationality. there's a million ways to have a unified aesthetic that isn't just national costume but I guess this is the only way to design "Japanese" aye?

read Kuki Shuzo or even Kojin karatani, you dumb fuck.

Not either of them but there is no way Kapital is related to any of the mentioned brands, sure maybe yohji could fit in with the others due to his use of graphics, ruggedness at times and edginess but Kapital is probably the least similar to the bunch

okay, let me put it this way, ukiyo-e and anime and Japanese pottery are considered "Japanese" "art" (lol, anime). Or even calligraphy

Especially, pottery and ukiyo-e are very different and ukiyo-e is different again from calligraphy. But they are still considered "Japanese" art. But in virtue of what are they Japanese? Is it being made in the nation state of Japan? If so then does annexed korean art count as Japanese.
Is it only if you're of Japanese heritage? What about Zainichi or Ainu.

Aesthetics goes beyond the "look" of an object, i.e. Yohji and Comme, or engineered garments and white mountaineering.
People like Shuzo Kuki, Kojin Karatani, even the early Buddhists of Japan have discussed this question of what is "Japanese" aesthetics. It goes beyond wabi-sabi, ma and the like.

I disagreed with him because I think he naively thinks that they are only related in nationality and not in aesthetic and design virtue.
So it goes beyond one being "streetwear" one being "avant-garde" and the other being "americana".

the thing is, all of them are way different
you can lump cav empt and undercover under the streetwear umbrella but the only thing common issey and yohji for example have is big use of non figurative forms
and considering the influence they've both had to fashion overall, it would be fucking hard to find designer clothing these days where you wouldn't be able to find traces of their influence, be it designer based on europe or asia
so you are essentially arguing that they all have in common the fact that they are japanese and that's their cultural background and context
damn you're a smart one
next up you're gonna tell us they are comparable cause they are all making clothing wtf?????? mind blown

>the thing is, all of them are way different
you could divide all of them further, into early/late, 80s, 90s etc. You could even divide each collection (and people do) into parts. Just because they aren't carbon copies of each other doesn't mean that they don't share similar aspects.

>so you are essentially arguing that they all have in common the fact that they are japanese and that's their cultural background and context
nah man, cav empt is British but I'm still arguing that he is designing with Japanese aesthetics in mind. and I guess in the weakest sense I'm arguing that it's their "cultural" background. Institutions like Bunka, which I'm pretty sure NIGO, Yohji, Junya (not sure about the rest) create aesthetics over time because of mimisis with the teachers, curriculum, etc. And then Japanese taste over time, selling primarily in a domestic market, and the influence of opening up by the american's, etc. I'm not saying they all share a nation-state culture and that why they the same. I'm saying they have a lot of sensibilities that are "Japanese" (but exclusive to Japan). The dumbest way to read that is "they share the same culture", the fuck do you mean by culture anyway?

*but not exclusive

>that he is designing with Japanese aesthetics in mind.
probably cause that's where they rip off their designs from and their graphic designer is profilic japanese artist
>because they aren't carbon copies of each other doesn't mean that they don't share similar aspects.
again, then you can just lumping up everything under japanese sensibilities and aesthetics
and you are ignoring so much history with these statements yohji and issey were revolutionary as fuck (not to mention cdg) and essentially changed the entire fashion field, it's not that hard to see why you can see similar aesthetic sensibilities in labels that came later when fucking everyone was influenced by them
and at the same time you could argue undercover has european aesthetic sensibilities because of the huge lang and westwood influence
but you aren't even arguing towards your point, you are just saying there is some vague sense of japanese aesthetic encompassing them all without defining it in any way
in the 90s someone joked that the british press called 'Antwerp Six' just that because they couldn't spell their names right and it got lot of criticism because they were lumped under that label and umbrella even though they were worlds apart in what they represented

>and you are ignoring so much history with these statements yohji and issey were revolutionary as fuck
I wrote my honours thesis on Yohji, Issey and Rei in the 80s and still thinking about publishing it. A great book is the Japanese Fashion Revolution in Paris.
I'm not saying that they are exclusive "Japanese" sensibilities but that Yohji has a cultural legacy that owes a lot to Hanae Mori and Kimono and Kabuki and but also that his design owes very much as a rebellion to "slim silhouettes" that were popular with Haute Couture.
>everyone was influenced by them
I agree, but I also don't think Yohji and the like sprung their designs from the ether, either.
> you are just saying there is some vague sense of japanese aesthetic encompassing them all without defining it in any way
I actually agree with you that I am being vague, honeslty don't want to give up the goods for my master's thesis. but yeah, I could go more indepth for this.
>Antwerp Six
can not comment because I have done much research on them. but yeah, I feel like there's a lot of "othering" by the French Press which matters a lot because Paris is without a doubt the hegemonic home of modern fashion industry.

>I actually agree with you that I am being vague
the thing is, if you just keep it vague then you can say pretty much anything and lump anything under 'japanese' aesthetics without needing to argue it in any way, I don't know how familiar you are with number nine but it's more 'western' than most western labels are, one of the more iconic shows was whole bunch of axl rose copies walking on stage in something axl rose would wear during shows
and that kinda western rock'n'roll aesthetic is at the very core of the entire label, some of the more famous individual pieces would arguably be the mickey mouses printed on tees and hoodies in poses made famous by photographs of rockstars during their concerts, you are very hard to find the japanese influence from the brand but I'm sure you can by keeping what constitutes japanese aesthetic loose and vague enough
I just think it's bit silly to criticize saying the labels are aesthetically worlds apart while lumping them under umbrella that suits your argument better yourself

What the fuck is this list? I swear these grailedkids ruin everything.

If you just found out about fashion in the last 5 years, you don’t get to have an opinion.

>t vague then you can say pretty much anything and lump anything under 'japanese' aesthetics without needing to argue it in any way,
I agree.
I know of Number Nine as much as the casual observer (wanted their preacher hat) and loved I think 2009. I agree they are in one sense very aesthetically different they draw influences very differently, Yohji's traditional mother's dress shop vs Issey trying to make it in Paris.
But I think there's missing the deeper sense of "aesthetic" this is from the Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

"Introduced into the philosophical lexicon during the Eighteenth Century, the term ‘aesthetic’ has come to be used to designate, among other things, a kind of object, a kind of judgment, a kind of attitude, a kind of experience, and a kind of value."

They all have their biggest sales in Japan, and pretty much all went through similar institutions. I'm not an idealist I'm more of a materialist (in like Marxist sense) and I think the instuitions and the markets play as much as a role in designating aesthetics as influence.

>deeper sense of "aesthetic"
you have to ask yourself if it's really there and actually understand what constitutes that very core to make that kinda claim though
do you see it as part of that very inherently japanese aesthetic because you have the context of knowing they are japanese and
>all went through similar institutions
and considering the massive japanese influence on western fashion in general one could argue some brands that are very inherently western could be mistaken or even straight up but under the 'japanese aesthetics' umbrella, and if that's possible then where do you draw the line
is it just as fair to speak about 'european designers' and rank romeo gigli, viktor & rolf, palace and madeleine vionnet cause they 'share european aesthetic sensibilities' despite the brands having fuck all to do with each other

Well in writing my thesis on it so I hope there is a deeper core, which I really think there is. And yes I would have no problem saying many "western" adopt Japanese aesthetic sensibilities. I think the designation of national aesthetics is inherently political anyway.

Also, consider you're using the term "western" which is a million times more nebulous than Japanese. I don't really know those brands so can't comment. I'm not saying all Japanese make Japanese fashion and they tap into their inner "japaneseness" I hate that shit. I approach from a historical dialectical method

And at least pick the good sneakers instead of those if you have to use Y-3