Where the Sioux, Comanche, Apache etc good horsriders and warriors

iirc wild horses reached some injuns tribes long before any european contact

You remember wrong

There were wild horses in North America but the natives ate them all around the same time Rome fell.

They were good horseriders because it was a vital part of their economy and very useful in the territory they inhabited.

Compare a lot of americans who learn to drive when they're basically children, being 16 or so, with europeans who learn it much later, even some of them not having the driver license in their mid 20s because they don't really need it that much.

Indians were not better horseman than those whites who needed horsemanship to eat. But those whites were not a majority at all.

>Natives have 300 years of horse riding tradition
>Europeans have 3000.
Far more time to explore, innovate and perfect. They were probably good horse riders, but their batallions were most likely inferior compared to occidental cavalry.

If you are talking about the fabled and unrelated ancient roman empire that existed 12,000 years ago then yeah there were horses in america around then

Yeah, they were fairly good horse rider warriors..because they were literally faggots at everything else.

Any info on further light-cavalry experience this guy had? Because if he only ever saw Natives and Mexican bandidos that statement is a whole lot different then if he had been to Europe

>Indians were not better horseman than those whites who needed horsemanship to eat
They were far better.
They were equivalent to or better than Mongols in ability.
The Horse was a way of life.
They didn't even use proper saddles yet they could go toe to toe with best the U.S. could offer.
They lost when they were outdone by firearms.

...

You just compared Indians with Mongols?

This is from Captain Anson Mills on the Lakota in the Battle of the Rosebud:
>Mills was impressed with the swarming Indians at his front. "They were the best cavalry soldiers on earth. In charging up toward us they exposed little of their person, hanging on with one arm around the neck and one leg over the horse, firing and lancing from underneath the horses' necks, so that there was no part of the Indian at which we could aim."

Custer didn't know a single thing about Indians.

yeah. Shame about the spahis being utter dogshit.

so americans were always bad at history eh?

>injuns famous for horses
>horses were killed off in America by natives, rather than being ridden, some 12,000 years ago
>Europeans had to give them horses
>the plains injuns eventually took them up in great numbers because horses work really well alongside plains cultures

Black Feet I believe.
ffs, you are retarded. Europeans learned "tradishun" which meant heavy cavalry charge. Completely different from light cavalry tactics, which regularly bested them as long as the commander wasn't a complete and total dipshit.
You're a faggot

>lots of evidence horses were acquired by some tribes before they had literally even seen a white man
>"you're wrong"

I think It's pretty amazing how fast they took to the Mounted Nomad life.

Steal/Buy a bunch of horses from the Spics and boom, they don't mess with you.

>"lots of evidence"
>presents no evidence

Look up Charles B. Gatewood he was the guy 2to was in charge of capturing Geronimo. In his memoirs he sings praises off Apache, Comanche, and Navajo war tactics. Ranging from tracking to hand speak even outfits that looked like by his own description of ghille suites. As well as horse riding.

There were horse-like creatures ( horses for all intents and purposes) in the Americas before a calamitous event wiped out much of the mega fauna in the western hemisphere. Scientists are still trying to establish what that event, or series of events, was, whether it was climate or extra-terrestrial, as a severe meteorite swarm. Most things bigger than a breadbox, including many humans, were wiped out, and cultures started from scratch around this time.

Here is one hypothesis, but there are others.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis

This was the last time we see horses in the fossil record before the earth 16th century European invasion. So, if you see pictures of native Americans using horses, it's along the same line as native Americans using firearms. Sure, by the 18th century, some of them probably got pretty good at using them.

should say, "before the early 16th century European invasion"

So they can do what Eastrn Europan light cavalry or central asian cavalrymen could do?
Impressive.
Two things
>most of USA ctizens come from Germany , UK or Scandi and where peasants or city dwellers and have little or nothing with horses
>USA cavalry were 2nd grade at best compared to Europan cavalry
>any nomadic horse culture nation will have great cavalrymen

What's impressive is they managed to become as good as they did as fast as they did despite essentially starting the whole horse riding thing from scratch.

No the natives were not the best horsemen in history by any remark. Most Turkic / Mongol / Steppe people were far better at horsemanship than American Natives.

They mainly fought civilians, militias, committed raiding etc and almost every time they met organized US Military Force they got rekt.

What is impressive about the natives and horses is how fast the tribes adopted the horse in to their lifestyle and how much the introduction of the horse changed the native societies overall.

First generation would have serious troubles
2nd that grow on horses will ride like they born of them.
Well they weren't proffesional military either. Armed civilians at best.

>What is impressive about the natives and horses is how fast the tribes adopted the horse in to their lifestyle and how much the introduction of the horse changed the native societies overall
>how fast the tribes adopted the horse into their lifestyle
They had a little less than 400 years of horsemanship when the last Indian War ended.

True, I do think they were some of the best individual horsemen just from the riding / culture aspect, and the way they treated their horses was amazing. Horse became to most valuable possession for man on the plains.

How different would the native history be had the horses never been wiped out there... Great Plains were just made for steppe lifestyle.

Still, how long did it take that the handful of escaped Spanish horses grew in to large enough populations to support a nomadic culture?

It was only around beginning of 19th century that most of the more famous native horse tribes were reaching their "peak"

Imagine that Russians were serious in their colonization in America and move some Tatar/Mongol tribes with some Cossacks here.
If not crippling diseases that wipe Injuns civilizations situation will be compltly differnet.
The Injun tribes were remnants living Mad Max world plus Alien invasion.

>Still, how long did it take that the handful of escaped Spanish horses grew in to large enough populations to support a nomadic culture?
Well, considering that the Spanish wrote about Apaches and Comanches riding horses by the time they made it that far North, I'd say somewhere in the early 17th century.

>It was only around beginning of 19th century that most of the more famous native horse tribes were reaching their "peak"
Pretty fucking irrelevant for the conversation at hand. The reason they had said peak was because the U.S. stomped their competition into the ground.

>Escaped
Well not enterily true, just like they did with the pigs (there wasn't pigs in America) spaniards always brought a good chunk of extra animals to left them in the wild, thus increasing the population available for the future.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche_history

>What are Jinetes, Hobilars and all the other light cavalry units going from dragoons to skirmishers, specially in the slavlands.
Plus plenty of light cavalry in the Spanish parts at least, the frontiesrman Dragones de Cuera for example lived in little fortress to protect the frontiers of large indian invasion and to punish the raids of Comanches and other plain tribes. After they independence, I don't know what the Mexicans did, but knowing them probably nothing.

>tfw no alt-history with mixed native / cossack state ruling the west coast and rocky mountains

Not that it would had ever happened in any form, Russian reach to Alaska already was so far extended any dream of colonization was hopeless.

>After they independence, I don't know what the Mexicans did, but knowing them probably nothing
Mexico was near constantly at war with the Apache. Once Texas fucked off, the Comanche were no longer their problem. Part of the reason Mexico agreed to the Gadsden purchase was so the U.S. would deal with the Apache.

so either the apache was really great warriors or Mexico sucked ass or both?

Neither. You have to realize what is now the American Southwest and Sonora had lower than 50,000 Mexicans living in them combined. That's 50,000 people spread across nearly 1,000,000 square miles. Mexico simply didn't have the resources or population in the North to deal with Indians who would quickly flee into Texas (or the U.S. after annexation). It's the same reason the U.S. couldn't really deal with the Seminoles who would flee into Spanish territory. When the Apache went up against Mexican military forces, they got BTFO, but the hit and run style of raids meant actual battles were few and far between. The U.S. didn't get around to dealing with them until after the Civil War, because initially they didn't care and during the CW they had bigger fish to fry. Once they did they were put down harshly which led to the last Indian War being fought in 1924 by Apache against U.S. rule. People really like to a bloo bloo about natives getting fucked by the U.S. and Mexico, but like this example, a lot of times they brought it on themselves. That's not to say EVERYTIME they deserved it, but I feel no sorrow for the Utes, Paiutes, Apache, Sioux or Comanche. They deserved everything they got.

>muh heritage
You can defend their ability to ride horses all day, but in the end, their ancestors are meth heads that can hardly ride the bus, let alone bareback. "dey ryd reel gud" doesn't matter when guns exist. Why are you defending a dumb position so adamantly?

>but in the end, their ancestors are meth heads that can hardly ride the bus,
whait what did busses and meth exist in america before horses?

>Utes, Paiutes, Apache, Sioux or Comanche
literally did nothing wrong.
there is nothing wrong with killing uninvited foreigners

>literally did nothing wrong
>your land is here
>our land is here
>Don't attack us and we won't attack you
>Natives continually raid settlements not within their contemporary or historical borders
>People shill for them because of false claims in modernity about MUH NOBLE SAVAGE
They literally did what everyone claims Europeans did to them. The majority of Indian Wars involving the U.S. began as defensive wars that became expansionist after the war began. Look at fucking Tecumseh's War or the War of 1812 or the fucking Seminole Wars. It's been like this since forever. Start shit, get hit.

>foreigners
>had been there for 300+ years
I guarantee most Americans thought of the continent as there home just as much as the natives. Having ancestors who lived there longer doesn't give you the right to sole ownership. Besides, fuck natives who didn't assimilate. The world is a better place without them.

Yup, the presidios formed the frontier, protecting the Mexicans, allied injuns and colonos, the function was more to respond to raids and trying to avoid them, but the plains indians were pretty crafty. The Comanches were the most despised group because they constant raids (that helped the interest of Spain,the comanches didn't care about who they raided) , being a leaderless bunch, they didn't avide to treaties because every group and warband did they own things, so low level wars between the dragones and the comanches or other plains indians were plentiful. The Apache were decimated be the comanches too, and probably a lot more tribes and people than we don't known when they descended to New Mexico and Olkahoma.

>american "culture"
>good

>native "culture"
>good
There's a reason they abandoned it and took up nigger culture. They considered that a step up.

gypsies have been in Europe for more then 400 years too. I will never accept them as a part of Europe

no because american culture pretty much is nigger culture

Are you a nigger? If American culture is nigger culture, then why are you here on an American website whose primary topic is America and American culture?

That's fine, but they aren't the predominant culture

they were good warriors because they didnt fucking stand in lines to shoot each other like the napoleonic cucks

Kek gtfo

modern day american culture has pretty much adopted american nigger culture.
white kids today speak and dress like niggers. does that mean more traditional american culture where inferior to nigger culture?
>primary topics are american
no Veeky Forums has primary history and humanite related topics

>modern day american culture has pretty much adopted american nigger culture.
>white kids today speak and dress like niggers
Really? Are you sure of that? Are you absolutely certain that white kids don't speak like white kids and dress like white kids and listen to metal instead of rap? Are you ABSOLUTELY sure person who has obviously never been to America and obviously gets his information from /pol/?

>no Veeky Forums has primary history and humanite related topics
>this board is the entire website
Wew lad. It's not like it matters. I'm being lectured by a frog about niggers in my country when his country is on the brink of civil war because of niggers.

jeez i mean dont need to be too hard on yourself an

>Really? Are you sure of that?
yes. have you lived under a rock grandpa?
>metal
it's very uncommon that people under 25 listens to metal

So who here actually rides a warhorse or any horse at all?

What is your standard for horsemanship? Show jumping, classical dressage, rodeo.

Saying X was better than Y means literally nothing without context.

Me

a warhorse or just any old horse?

How hard is it to do the stuff they do in this video at around 9:50

youtu.be/kmxZ4vMTPVg?t=589

>yes. have you lived under a rock grandpa?
Do you? I understand American culture because I'm an American and not a frog faggot.

>it's very uncommon that people under 25 listens to metal
I am 24. All of my friends listen to metal of some kind. Some of my friends are in metal bands which include kids straight out of highschool. Warped Tour is still a thing. Ozzfest and Knotfest are still things. Mayhemfest is still a thing.

>frog faggot
im not french i never claimed to be french
>I am 24. All of my friends listen to metal of some kind.
your in the minority. Maybe in the small towns they still do that but if you have been to any of the bigger cities you would understand

>Maybe in the small towns they still do that but if you have been to any of the bigger cities you would understand
I live in fucking Phoenix and grew up in Vegas.

So, who were the better horse men of the Injuns and why were the Comanches?

thanks for the input, it helped us greatly

>Veeky Forums
>primary topic is America and American culture
KEKed

I dont know about the Sioux and Apache, but I think it is likely they were fantastic horse riders, since that happened in the other extreme of the continent.
The indians in the southern half of Argentina had pretty much become horse riding nomads like those of Central Asia, and the Spanish acknowledged they were better at horse riding than them.