Why do some communists

...speak about Revolutionary Catalonia as an example of "libertarian communism"? It was a brutal dictatorship. How were committees with militias murdering people different from a state?

Because people don't like to admit they are wrong and will do anything to defend their beliefs.

labor vouchers

If Veeky Forums's anti-commie crowd is any indication, because it was a brutal dictatorship who's goal was to achieve statelessness, therefor it was a stateless society.

"How were committees with militias murdering people"
Because it relies on the will of the people. If no one wanted to be part of the militias they would dissolve. The government was not the one organizing the militias, and they killed property owners who refused to collectivize. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either, seeing that they were purposefully preventing their workers from reaching a better life.

Revolutions mean some people have to die. In the case of Catalonia, a few people dying for the good of the people they oppressed was seen as worth it. But no, it wasn't a brutal dictatorship, the central government had little control over anything. That's why it did so god damn well.

Also, not expecting violence during a civil war is absurd. Ultimately, Spain would be far better off if the Anarchists had won, or at least, Catalonia would be. You can complain all you want about people dying, but people dying is one of the realities of history. People died during the Napoleonic Wars, ultimately benefiting everyone.

>a brutal dictatorship
[citation needed]
Maybe near the end due to the CNT, but not in 37 or 38.

Oh, I'm sure that the mass killings of thousands didn't coerce people into joining the militias or accepting collectivization. And neither did the fact that people who didn't want collectivization weren't allowed to hire an employee or use transportation among other limitations.
Besides, if collectivization was such an utopia, why ban wage labor? Surely the workers wouldn't want to be exploited by evil bourgeoise, right? And I'm sure that earning not based on what your work is must have been such socialist paradise, right?

And the committees were the new government, not calling it a state doesn't mean it wasn't one. Besides, you say "few people", not surprising from a barbaric communist. They killed thousands of people based on their religion, their political views or the ownership of property.

What the fuck did you mean?

Anarchism isn't anti coercion when putting the revolution in place. You don't win a revolution by showing everyone how good your system is, you have to force it.

>if collectivization was such an utopia, why ban wage labor? Surely the workers wouldn't want to be exploited by evil bourgeoise, right? And I'm sure that earning not based on what your work is must have been such socialist paradise, right?
Because wage labor was unnecessary? Labor vouchers work as a better system?
And it was really a paradise, or else the under-supplied anarchists wouldn't have have fought tooth and nail to keep it around. Authors have written about it, Sam Dolgoff compiled a number of european language sources on Catalonia, translated them into English and painted quite a picture. But there isn't that much information around about it.

We

They could have tried with a strongly worded letter :^)

>Ultimately, Spain would be far better off if the Anarchists had won

t. 13 yo Antifa

Compelling argument m8

>Because it relies on the will of the people. If no one wanted to be part of a gang they would dissolve. The government was not the one organizing the gangs, and they beat up the property owners who refused to pay protection money. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either, seeing that they were purposefully preventing poor people from reaching a better life.

I didn't say their ruthless use of violence contradicts their Anarchism. What contradicts it is that once they gained power, they kept a hierarchy (the new state in the form of the committee) that exercised tyranny.
If wage labor was unnecessary, why ban it? If collectives were so great, the workers wouldn't want to leave them and be employed instead, right?
And no, everybody earning the same is not good, it's mediocre and unfair.

"thousands of people" is fucking nothing, sorry, especially for a revolution. Compare that to over 100,000 killed by Franco afterwards. They didn't kill people based on religion, they killed members of the clergy, who were openly pro-fascist (an extremely deadly ideology.)

Or, does Franco get a pass?

>And it was really a paradise, or else the under-supplied ISIS wouldn't have have fought tooth and nail to keep it around.

>You don't win a revolution by showing everyone how good your system is, you have to force it.
"You don't maintain order by showing everyone how good your system is, you have to enforce it." Why are you so near-sighted? "Anarchist" Catalonia was another totalitarian state, up to interfering with social freedoms like practicing the religion you'd like. It was special among totalitarian states in that it relied less on bureaucracy, but it was still run by bullies.

They were both brutal. Communists were anti-clerical in principle, any cleric with a self-preservation instinct would oppose any such ideology. And don't act as if the priests and nuns were about to pick up arms - they were killed for dissent in the face of the new order, and for ideological reasons in general.

>waah violence is bad and makes me feel sad

Liberalism was a mistake

Gangs aren't leading to people having better lives? Gangs just kill people who aren't necessarily infringing on other's liberties.

>they kept a hierarchy
In Anarchist controlled areas of the country, they ignored the state. In mixed republican/anarchist areas, they compromised with the republicans leading to them getting their asses kicked.

>If wage labor was unnecessary, why ban it?
Wage labor is unfair exploitation. They do the same amount of work as others but make less? That's exploitation and not fair.

> If collectives were so great, the workers wouldn't want to leave them and be employed instead, right?
They were employed in the collectives? What are you even asking? No one left the communes to work for a wage, everyone left working for a wage to work in the communes.
>And no, everybody earning the same is not good, it's mediocre and unfair.
If everyone is rewarded with everything they need plus luxuries, people don't care about being paid at all. And that's why Catalonia didn't collapse from revolts. Everyone was fed, clothed, had a roof, and if they weren't at war they would also have TVs and Radios. You do the work, you reap the reward. You contribute to society, you reap the reward. That's it.

>like practicing the religion you'd like
They killed the pro-fascist clergy, I honestly don't care about that. Anarchist Catalonia didn't and wouldn't have banned the Spanish Language and culture given the opportunity, but Franco did that to the Catalans.

What the fuck is even your point? People kill others? Wow, I never would've guessed.

There were tens of thousands killed by the reds (by the way, they did kill people based on their religion, they never denied it). And Communism is as totalitarian and has killed many more people than Fascism.

>Spain would be far better off if the Anarchists had won, or at least, Catalonia would be
Source:Muh feels

The same that you brought

ah yes like all communists you think its ok to kill people as long as you accomplish what you want to.

Lets say the clergy were fascists. were they taking up arms? I guess you think its ok to kill anyone who disagrees with your "noble" aims

>Gangs aren't leading to people having better lives? Gangs just kill people who aren't necessarily infringing on other's liberties.
Gangs transfer wealth from the pockets of the comparatively wealthy to kids which are comparatively poor. The comparatively wealth keep the poor kids from taking what they need from stores by forcing them to pay for that stuff, even though the store owners actually have more cash lying around than the poor kids. Clearly, the store owner is in the wrong and it's only fair that he gets robbed.

>What the fuck is even your point? People kill others? Wow, I never would've guessed.
I'm saying the clergy weren't killing anybody. The militias did. Clergies had every reason they needed to oppose them, since communists had an history of prosecuting the clergy. I don't understand how you try to spin this to make the clergy seem like the oppressors here.

>killing is wrong despite the fact that violence is not only the most effective solution but also the most moral
Pacifism is why God doesn't talk to us anymore. Your lack of awareness is only further proof of how broken your ideology has made you.

A committee dictating how you live is a totalitarian state despite anarchists refusing to call it so.
You don't get it. If workers liked the collectives so much and being privately employed was so bad, why ban wage labor? Surely those workers wouldn't want to leave the utopian collectives and be exploited by the bourgeoise, so what's the need in banning wage labor? And if collectives were so great, why did they not allow the use of public transportation for those who refused the colllective paradise?
Luxuries? They earned based on hours in some parts. Why shouldn't an engineer earn more than a guy who piles boxes?
It was a primitive dystopia.

>they killed property owners who refused to collectivize. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either

The true morality of leftists.

Where did I advocate pacifism? at most I condemned killing noncombatants

> Pacifism is why God doesn't talk to us anymore

What?

why do they adopt stupid beliefs where they are constantly humiliated for being wrong then

>punishments are bad, all actions should be permitted, except when people try to stop me from shifting on their grandmothers

Liberalism is at worst ideology of neets on why they should get to scrounge off others, at best it's proof that violence is the sole moral action one can take.

Lefties logic
>Hur hur hur hur if the anarchist won the war it would be heaven on earth
>Any evidence of this kind of societies lasting long and giving good results?
>You know, they killed for this ideas, so they must have worked pretty well you know.
Fucking retards.This a pic of Barcelona hen Franco took the city.Almost half of the city went outside to celebrate it.Your "utopia" is just mental masturbation

>murdering people in order to see my pipedream come to fruition is totally okay, even though every single historical attempt at doing it has led to famine, oppression and unfreedom.

Morality is based on how nihilists feel as opposed to fundamental truths.
>Not realizing violence is the holiest of actions
>being this much of a pagan
>laughing faithful.jpg

Bump

No he's right. You could vote anarchism away. Communism stays.

>and they killed property owners who refused to collectivize. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either

I own cattle and my family own farms, the day you try your CNT shit is the day I will murder your family slowly you communist PIG

we WORK, you dumb idiotic bastard, i guaran-fucking-tee i worked harder than you ever have. i will spend the rest of my life sniping and planting IEDs to kill every single one of your friends, go to hell and stay there with marx and your mother too

/mad

Not saying the Anarchists or Communists are right but you kind of have to come out and celebrate when even the slightest action, like not clapping as the Nationalists arrive, is a good way to get marked as a Red and shot and have your family raped by Moroccans.

Because communism has cool art and logos so its hip to identify with.

this is proof why CNT violence was justified, smallholders such as yourself have a fundamental economic interest in the property system, which is theft and we can't convince you to stop stealing and you will literally be violent if anybody tries to stop your dictatorial rule over that land and anybody who wants to use it

Ah, but can you still steal my property when I turn your corpse turns into maggot food?

Please, START the revolution yourself. I have ammunition waiting to be spent on you, just like the 30,000 dead bastards-turned-manure killed at the Ebro.

CNT is NEVER coming back, it's as dead as you will be if you steal my stuff, thief.

>mfw this cognitive dissonance of blaming one side of the SCW for brutality

Both sides were fucking animals, you retards. And might I add that, comparatively speaking, the CNT were saints.

you sound like the navy seal copypasta
clumsy bourgeois

You know what isn't fake though :^]

considering Franco had just about the whole army and support from Hitler it's pretty laughable that it took the military cowards three years
everybody remembers Durruti and the Iron Column as heroes, Franco and the other fascist nerds are irrelevant and it didn't even take repression for the dictatorial system to fail

>which is theft

How is the private property which he tills himself to eek out a living for himself still theft? It's personal property at that point.

...

>my family own farms
yeah you need more than one farm to make a living lol

more people were executed so why don't you use that?
400,000 people were killed by the state so why isn't that what you're glorifying?

He's just a lowlife thug mad at someone else having things that he doesn't. He looks at all that land and animals and think I must have it made and I'm filthy rich, when really I'm just a guy spending 90% of his money taking CARE of the land, animals, etc. because it will all turn to forests or die of starvation if you don't. It's hard work pretty much every damn day. This punk would see me dead to steal what my family has worked for with their bare hands, paying other a portion of the money and using the rest to buy pay bills.

Beyond being a soldier there is no tougher job than this, or maybe carpentry, which I can do more or less.

Two middle fingers up to them, leftists did the same to all rightists in Catalonia.

And the reason they did it is the same reason that you won't be convinced by anything I post in this thread, and I won't be convinced by anything you post. Making these threads and I suppose all argument is a waste of time.

>posting cute farm animals while making impassioned pleas to a leftist that you will never meet nor will ever have the opportunity to murder your cute little farm animals

i'm fucking dying here, don't worry senpai, you're not going to be killed because you have a farm

Dude, what part don't you get that YOU are literally STEALING with armed FORCE?

How am I "stealing" paying what I can afford to those who would volunteer to work?

Communists did it once, they will do it again if they have a chance. Just know I do have weapons and if my livelihood is gone then I will be joining the gov't/right wing militia. There's only one way you take what is mine, ball is in your court.

>i'm fucking dying here

I'm celebrating with a beer, it seems you are eyeing my up my "cute" animals and I don't want them birthing something that looks like your mother with 4 legs.

It's only stealing if you recognise property rights, which I've never seen a justification for. Since property rights can take away the ability for someone to control their own work, and since that is more concrete freedom than the freedom to own land or factories in your imagination, I don't recognise property rights. Sorry about the hostile tone of discussion as well.

What a cute farm :3

As retarded as it gets

>I don't recognise property rights. Sorry about the hostile tone of discussion as well.

Fine, sorry too. Let's leave it at that.

Nothing funny about a guy masturbating to animals I posted t b h

Yeah, because FRanco had control and knowledge of who celebrated what.....

Cute is not for sexual

>we have to kill you because otherwise you won't let us use farmland you worked hard to build

Honestly, I should be shocked, but at the end of the day this is what leftists believe.

>And it was really a paradise, or else the under-supplied ISIS wouldn't have have fought tooth and nail to keep it around.
ISIS is well supplied by Obama and Saudis.

>they killed property owners who refused to collectivize. I can't say I feel bad for the property owners either

They actually cut down on that.

"The collectivisation[12] of the countryside started right after leaving Barcelona. Even though the column did not stop to liberate as much countries as other columns, due to its size, it created the majority of the libertarian communes. At the beginning there were some acts of violence and some people were forced to join the collectives. But it is said that Durruti himself defended the individualists who did not want to work share their land.[13] Such people were left having as much land as they could cultivate with their families without any hired labour and could always join the collective. Depending on the place, the individualists could have been put under more or less stronger economical pressure to make them join the commune."

There wasnt the need for that much violence because a lot of the land was run or left farrow by absentee landlords.

Leftists aren't people.

Veeky Forums Why doesn't USA nuke just create military dictatorship all over the world, round up all leftards in a single town and nuke them?

It's be better for all of us.

It wasn't a dictatorship because there was no dictator.

Anarchist Catalunia was pretty amazing, but you're correct that it was no utopia. The murder of pro-fascist clergy is wrong.

Got any goats or grapevines?

edgy

>Anarchist Catalunia was pretty amazing, but you're correct that it was no utopia. The murder of pro-fascist clergy is wrong.
It wasnt anarchist, and it wasnt amazing. Companys alone order the execution of 9000 people. Only uneducated antifas believe so.

Isnt that the figure for all people who died violently during the civil war in Catalonia?

No. That is just the death sentences singed by Companys

>Revolutions mean some people have to die. In the case of Catalonia, a few people dying for the good of the people they oppressed was seen as worth it.
Spoken like a true Communist

>Implying you anti-communist fascists don't want to do the same against inocent leftists and workers

>Communism
>Workers movement

Where do you get the idea anyone cares about those deaths? Anyone who confronts the revolution is an enemy and deserves a bullet in the head. That simple.

>Property is theft
>Every person apparently has a claim to the whole bounty of the earth

Each person thrown into the world is owed nothing has no claims over anything aside from things that others give them.

>Inocent lefties

MUH WORKERS

Workers are nothing special.

>Leftists
>Innocent

>The murder of pro-fascist clergy is wrong.

Don't complain the next time you guys will be lined up against the walls in front of a milita firing squad
>Capitalism
>Fascism
>Workers movement

>pro-fascist clergy is wrong.
You fuckers should be physically removed.You are dumb and sick

>Don't complain the next time you guys will be lined up against the walls in front of a milita firing squad
>Lefties
>Winning
You will be physically removed soon.

>>Lefties
>>Winning
Shill while you can.
capitalism isn't going to last long

>capitalism isn't going to last long

>Goods and services in exchange for currency is going to die out

we will soon hit post-scarsity and most jobs will be replaced by machines.
The capitalists will use this at first to gain more money because machines don't need wages but when they realice that all the consumers are gone they are fucked.
The workers will finally realiced that they have been fucked the whole time by the capitalist elites and rise up. pro-capitalist reactionaries will be shoot alongside their masters

>Post-scarcity
A dream.
>Lack of consumers
Another dream?
>Rise up
Did you masturbate while writing this post

>A dream
Prove it.
Communism is science

>capitalism isn't going to last long
>Says the fat NEET neckbeard for the 50th time

>Communism is science

The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim.

What makes post scarcity work without a few workhorses? Why would consumers stop consuming just because they get gibsmedat? Why'd leftists rise up against the workers providing for them?

>would consumers stop consuming just because they get gibsmedat
how does consumers get money when all the jobs are replaced by machines?

Why do commies think the world owes them anything. Work hard for the things you want like a man, fag.

>how does consumers get money when all the jobs are replaced by machines?
>Commies are this dumb

They get gibsmedat because they vote for increased welfare.

people who don't work hard and only whant gibsmedats will not have a good time in a communist society.

>people who don't work hard and only whant gibsmedats will not have a good time in a communist society.
>People working hard
>Communism

then the consumer money is just money coming from the capitalist elites. the economy won't grow.

i think you'r confucing the socialdemocratic welfare state with communism

No.Communism is anarchist stupidity that ends up like New Harmony did.Only people with 2 brain cells believe that communism can work