I wanted to start a discussion about who you guys think were the greatest military leaders of all time...

I wanted to start a discussion about who you guys think were the greatest military leaders of all time. I didn't know if I should define is as "greatest military mind" or leader, as I feel there is a difference. So you can take it however you want, based on battlefield prowess, organizational, administrative skills, ability to inspire troops etc.

I'm also interested in opinions on which of the traits I mentioned before are the most important for Military success (i know this differs greatly by the period of warfare.) Tech and then tactics I would think is the obvious first choice. I'm wondering about examples where a commander was able to defeat an enemy with superior strategy AND numbers, maybe even superior tech too, simply through having a more inspirational effect on his men, and troops more inspired to fight for their cause.

The closest thing that comes to my mind is Robert the Bruce.

Here are my top 5 in order: Probably the safest, most generic picks ever. Oh well.

1.Napoleon
2. Alexander
3. Genghis Khan
4. Hannibal
5. Julius Caesar

Honorable mentions: Erwin Rommel, Stonewall Jackson, Themistocles, Leonidas, Robert E. Lee, George Washington, Nathanael Greene, Eisenhower, Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Atilla the Hun, Patton, William T. Sherman.

As you can see, my scope is blindingly biased toward the ancient world, as well as older American leaders. Looking to broaden it. Didn't mention Sun Tzu by the way, as I know nothing about him.

Genghis Khan, or world ruler devastating invasions of Asia destroyed Muslim civilisations and tilted the balance for the first time in favour of Christian Europe – one unintended consequence of a career that would also change Russia, India and China, making Temujin probably the most influential human in history

>George Washington
>Erwin Rommel
>Leonidas

Such a kind thing for you to alert us from the get-go that this is a meme thread.

And where are my babies Wolfe and de Montfort?

Do you feel that Subutai diminishing his greatness at all? I've read some people who think Genghis wouldn't have been near the man he was without him.

It's not a troll thread man. I was careful to alert you guys as to my ignorance of History, so it wouldn't be seen as so by more knowledgeable people. I know Leonidas is forever meme tier with all the over statements of his badassery, and that shitty movie, but from what I know, he had merits. I know the initial force sent in were basically the Persian pleb soldiers, but holding formation, and slaughtering them was a pretty impressive show of his men's trust in him. Then they fucked up the 'immortals' in the same manner. From what I know Xerxes with rather flustered, and it wasn't until the betrayal of the hidden pass that this massive force was able to break them. I think a man who could command such loyality among a darwinian warrior culture has some merits to him. Him and the few thousand Athenians/others who stayed until they end and gave Athens time, impress me. I'm not somewhat caught up in his hollywood tier myth.

>Erwin Rommel

Make an argument against him. Not like I put him top 5. From what I know his failures were more a results of higher up administrative meddling. Were there any more competent German generals in WWII in your opinion?

>George Washington

I caterigize him as a great General as a result of multiple factors combining into one. Took up this seemingly hopeless war as some random Colonel from the French and Indian war. I have to imagine if you were in that room, you'd think the cause fucked. Washington was a very lucky general in my opinion. Napoleon's quote “I know he's a good general, but is he lucky?” make me think of him. He started out with some pretty bad losses, unconventional hit and run war fare etc. The fact that the guy, prior had not once commanded an army of any real size, and was often fighting with less than zero supplies, and untrained

and even survived the early days of the war seems amazing. Before he got a proper army with some training, he seemed like some sly ghost fox. The fact he and Army narrowly escaped New York, and complete destruction in 1776 is testament to that. Lastly, I put merit into one's ability to inspire. By the accounts I've read Washington was an extremely imposing, stern, yet fair figure, who's presence gave much needed moral. I find best showcased when I can't remember who, possibly General Gates ordered a full retreat in a battle they had the advantage in, and Washington got on his horse and charged forward saying there was on retreat, and anyone running would be executed. Dude had balls, and cunning, and wasn't the best General. He was the General American needed at the time though.

Also, I'm surprised you picked Leonidas and Washington off my "honorable mentions" to deem this a troll thread. Not Nathanael Greene or maybe William T. Sherman? The hell mate.

Not sure why I thought it was General Gates, who ordered the retreat in that story. It was Charles Lee during the Battle of Monmouth.

>No mention of either Belisarius, Cyrus The Great or Ramesses The Great
the fuck OP

Trajan

Master of the Roman world. Beats Caesar every time.

>Cyrus The Great

I realized the extent of my blunder the moment I hit the enter key my friend.

>Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa
>Belisarius

Never heard of either of these guys. That was one of my goals making this, to broaden my knowledge of military leaders outside the the typical ones. I've never been to college or taken a History class, the extent of my knowledge on shit is reading Wikipedia all the time, and watching random war documentaries. That's why the thing's I do know, I know at least somewhat well, but I'm ignorant toward the vast majority of history, outside some of the more romanticized periods. How do yall' up your Veeky Forums powerlevel?

Frederik Hendrik van Oranje-Nassau, the compeller of cilties.

>Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa

Wait, I know of him a little through his achievements. Just didn't click his name in my head. Anyway, don't want to derail this, have at it.

>his main achievement was the successful Siege of 's-Hertogenbosch

28,000 men + 4,000 peasants and 116 cannons, vs. 3,000 soldiers and 4,000 armed civilians? I know siege warfare can't be judged by numbers on paper, but what made this beyond ordinary? I'm guessing the method of diverting water to isolate the city in an innovative way, and capture it quickly with few losses?

Khalid Ibn Al-Walid deserves a spot on this list in my opinion, destroyed the byzantines and the sassanids with far less men than either of them.

For someone who 'inspired' his troops to victory, Oliver Cromwell took a markedly different route, forging an intensely religious army, the New Model Army, which possessed much greater discipline and zeal than previous Parliamentarian armies did.

1. Napoleon
2. Alexander
3. Khalid Walid
4. Julius Caesar
5. Hannibal

you have napoleon but not john churchill? your honorable mention list features patton and Eisnehower but not Slim or Montgomery.

no Cromwell, or Wellington either despite both being easily as good as your honorable mentions and in Wellingtons case arguably as good as napoleon.

no gustavus adolphus, no fredrick the great and far far to many fucking americans.

and Rommel was not the best german commander by a considerable margin.

Why Julius Caesar? He was good but not top 5 worthy. Scipio Africanus would make a much better choice, he is almost as good as Hannibal at least. He made very good tactical decisions, and masterfully persuaded the Celtiberians to reinforce him, saving the wreck that was the Hispanian Campaign

Yeah, my honorable mentions is a little shameful. I was aware of that even writing it. I kind of just picked the first somewhat prominent leaders I could and threw them on there. I completely agree with you on Wellington, Montgomery, Cromwell, Fredrick the Great. I probably should have put Cyrus the Great on my top 5 to be honest. Perhaps in place of Genghis Khan. I was never someone who thought Genghis top 5 all time, simply because the land mass he conquered and wars he won. A friend of mine convinced me hes the greatest ever, and his tactics were pure genius, so i don't know what to think. Yeah, my views are way to American centered. I don't honestly believe Stonewall Jackson, Eisenhower, Sherman, Greene to be in the top 100. That's why I'm trying to de Americanize my grasp of history, by having those opinions destroyed. Thanks for your input mate.

As far as Rommel, which German commander would you rank above him? I can only think of Erich von Manstein.

Admiral Yi Sun Sin!
>taking up the remaining 13 ships after devastating defeat for the Koreans
>winning battle against 133 japanese warships, not losing a single vessel
>building up fleet again, crushing the japs, ending their dream of conquering china

The Divine Julius, Hiratio Nelson, Cyrus the Great, Hannibal, Scipio, there are some others but those are probably my favorites.

1. Napoleon
2. Subutai
3. Alexander
4. Frederick the Great

>master of the roman world.
>could out maneuver Caesar every time

Marcus was a better architect than a general.
Scipio Africanus was a student of human nature, who could read and manipulate the individual and crowd psychology of soldiers.
IMO he had a higher strategic direction than Caesar.

What are the best books on Napoleon?

>Shit Robert Lee
>No mention of based US Grant
No chance

guderian, kesselring

Donitz my good man

>Erwin Rommel
>Takeda Shingen
>Julius Caesar
>the king in the north ROBB STARK

>Genghis Khan
meme

No Subutai, Khalid ibn al Walid or Baibars?

Incredibly obvious that this was put together by an American

This.

Yet another thread without Hunyadi, Skanderbeg, Akbar, Gaja Mada, Belisarius, Mehemet II, Murad II, Suleiman (debatable? sure makes the cut if you factor in administrative prowness), Andrea Doria, Maurice of Nassau, Takeda Shingen&Uesugi Kenjin, Oda Nobunaga, Timur Lengk, Nader Shah, Francesco Sforza, and I could go on all day because these were just on top of my mind. Tl;dr if your list contains more than 1 WW2 general you know nothing about what makes a great general.

>rommel
>great
pick one

>Napoleon got his ass kicked
>Alexander never lost and conquered more land
>Somehow Napoleon is greater

Andrew Roberts' Napoleon: A Life
David G. Chandlers' Campaigns of Napoleon
A Military History and Atlas of the Napoleonic Warsby Brig. Gen. Vincent J. Esposito & John R. Elting

literally the only 3 you will ever need

I think he made this thread so you can share what makes those people so great, not get buttblasted because his list has too many white people.

Op even mentioned his American bias and you dickbags still have to act like superior assholes.

>Insulting God King George on his birthday
You better watch what you say commie.

What about model?

Their situations weren't exactly the same.

Sherman was legitimately great. He didn't have to pull stunts to win battles like Lee, but his campaign to the sea was absolutely the smartest thing to do. The man was incredibly wise and had the kind of perspective that few exhibit. You read quotes from Sherman when he was in the thick of it and just about everything he said was correct.

>Were there any more competent German generals in WWII in your opinion?
Guderian for starters

Alexander had the best army and was fighting an already crumbling empire. After the first few battles, the problem wasn't strategical but just logistic.

Napoleon had to fight all Europe at once, several times, with a nation already at war for 10 years.

> Books on Napoleon
> None are from french authors
Nigga, what are you doing ?

Why are French people specially qualified to write about a person who wasn't even French?

>who wasn't even French?
oh this meme again

Good list

1. Alexander
2.Pyrus
3.Hannibal
but if Hannibal had beaten Scipio I'd put him above all.

Not him, but not only there isn't one written by a french but they're all written by anglos.

If you're doing a top 10 list then Timur and Nader Shah should be added too.

>Were there any more competent German generals in WWII in your opinion?
Guderian, Hoth, von Manstein, von Kluge, Hopner, Rundstedt, Kesselring and Beck.