Why is it that Japan was the only country in history which was able to self-industrialize and compete with the Western powers? It always dumbfounded me, because I have never seen a good explanation. China was historically the economic and technological superpower of the East, but then Japan comes out of nowhere, overtakes it, and beats it up.
Why is it that they were the only ones ever successful at Westernization?
Honorary Aryans.
Korea, Taiwan, Singapore
More credit has to be delivered to their stock/human capital than egalitarians.
China thought they were too good to imitate the West
china spontaneously decided to fuck its shit up so the demand for industry in the area gravitated towards japan
China is the rome of asia that became decadent and over run by barbarians, later only becoming a scilian shit hole, while japan is like germany
Before they kicked Russia's ass everyone laughed at how inferior and unmodern the Japanese were and how they were just aping White people. Japs and Koreans once had a reputation for being shitty workers and subpar engineers with no work ethic or problem-solving skills, much like how many people see the Chinese now. And the stereotypes were half-correct, even.
Japan certainly had a lot of human capital though, in the "literate, urbanized workforce looking for gainful employment" sense.
Or the Ottoman Empire/Turkey. You can point to the fact that they lost and collapsed during WWI, but so did many of the European empires, and they came back more Western than ever.
Basically They saw what happened with China and did everything they could to avoid getting the same fate themselves.
The chinese were arrogant as fuck & set in their ways
Japan saw what happened to them and decided they didn't wanna get pounded by BWC
This. They had the ability to put aside their arrogance and realize that they were behind the West in every way. Japan immediately moved to improve itself rather than continue their ways like other countries in the region.
This meme needs to die.
The Japs have always been arrogant as fuck and considered themselves superior even as they imitate other groups. And arrogance didn't stop the Qing from that whole Self-Strengthening Movement business.
The difference was ultimately that Qing was practically in the middle of a civil war the whole time. The Qing court kept on having to pull back from Self-Strengthening because it was starting to give power to groups that could have opposed its rule.
People tend to underestimate Japan's capabilities before the Westernization. In the 1500s, they manufactured the most guns of amy nation.
>"""immediately"""
en.wikipedia.org
As for Japanese arrogance, I'll feed you some cute quotes if I have the time.
"Japanese culture is superior: this is absolutely true. It was built by superior champions and so must be superior. The honor students consider it superior, and so the people (the backward students) must agree. However, a notion exists among these honor students that Japanese culture is an imitation, without originality. But since, as they argue, imitation is in its own way superior, the “imitationist” camp is in the end identical with the “superiorist” camp. The honor students claim that Japan is capable of imitation precisely because of its superiority, or again that imitation itself is creative, i.e., superior. The people (the backward students) are persuaded by this argument. Yet the honor students admit that within this superior Japanese culture elements exist that are not superior: these are the backward students. Japanese culture would be perfect if it consisted only of honor students, and whatever imperfections it has can be explained by the presence of the backward students. Regardless of the honor students’ efforts, the backward students lower the general cultural level. How unfortunate, they say!
The people (the backward students) react to these words with feelings of contrition toward the honor students for causing such decline. When the honor students achieve victory in international competition, the backward students share in the honor. They must cheer for the honor students, and they will: “The honor students will win because they’re superior. And yet they lost. How can this be? They lost because the backward students pulled them down. The backward students stood in the way of victory. The loss took place with the backward students, not with the honor students. It is they who bear responsibility for the wartime defeat.” Such is the logic of honor student culture."
East aryan race triumphant, them and manchus
Hence the substitution of players. But those who were substituted in were also honor students, for only honor students are allowed to play. This was simply a substitution of imperial university honor students for those from the military academies. “While it’s true that the former honor students failed, this was not because they were honor students but because their methods were wrong: they forgot to take into account the backward students. The loss can be attributed to the inferior students, that is to say, the honor students failed to take them into account.” The new honor students try to redeem that failure by bringing the backward students closer to them, and the people (the backward students) can only thank them for this favor: “Even the honor students lost, but they lost because of us. They showed us favor, and we are guilty for letting them down. How can we not be grateful? We must try harder, we must obey the commands of the honor students and draw closer to them so as not to lose in the future. It would be shameful if we don’t raise the general average of this superior Japanese culture.” Such is the educational spirit of honor student culture.
“Indeed! Education will succeed. The backward students learned a lesson from the defeat and will now follow the example of the honor students and become clever. Honor student culture will flourish. There is no defeat for Japanese ideology, for it represents a superior spiritual force that turns even defeat into victory. Regard the superiority of Japanese culture! Long live Japanese culture!”
You're saying that like Russia wasn't inferior and unmodern but with heaps of human capital
I'm not saying anything, I'm reporting what others said. The victory over Russia caused a revolution in international attitudes toward Japan.
"According to Takeuchi, the identification of the West with modernity left the various Asian nations in the extremely difficult position of either accepting their status as feudal, thereby rendering them susceptible to foreign aggression, or embarking upon a radical course of modernization that would effectively negate their identity as Asian and make them part of the West. If Japan were to avoid the fate of China, which had become a quasi-colony of the West as early as the 1840s with its defeat by the British in the Opium War, it had no choice but to drastically reform the state and its principal institutions along the lines of the nations of Western Europe. And yet this westernization of the country would, it was argued, leave Japan as no longer East but West.
To refuse modernization, as in the case of China, meant that westernization would take place by way of external coercion, whereas to openly embrace modernization, as in the case of Japan, signified the nation’s readiness to sacrifice its own cultural traditions and transform itself. Regardless of the nature of Asia’s response, then, the encounter with the modern West seemed inescapably to lead to an increased westernization and a corresponding decrease or diminishment of the East."
"For Takeuchi, it was this paradox inherent to East–West relations that Japan had refused to come to terms with since the beginning of the Meiji period, as a direct result of which it now found itself fighting against both Asian and western nations in the Fifteen-Year War. This was to say, in other words, that the inability or unwillingness in Japan to confront the paradox posed by the modern West brought about a modernization in which imperialism was seen as requisite to any real success. [...]
Japan came to feel the necessity of expanding its own interests in the region so as to take its place among the modern nations. But this subjection of Asia was just the initial step in the slave’s reversal of the hierarchical relations with the master. For Japan to assume full parity with the West, it was insufficient to merely join the ranks of those nations enjoying imperialist privileges in the otherwise unenlightened East. There must rather be a complete overturning of the structure of East–West relations itself, such that Japan, which now envisioned itself as the chosen protectorate of Asia, would directly challenge the West for supremacy in the region. In this way, Takeuchi saw the outbreak of the Greater East Asian War as developing logically from the master-slave dynamic that had informed East–West relations from the very beginning of the modern era. While the West was undeniably responsible for shaping the unequal terms of its relations with Asia, Takeuchi nevertheless found Japan to be guilty of simply accepting those terms, desiring nothing more than to occupy the position of superiority otherwise reserved for the West. In Lu Xun’s language, Japan symbolized the slave who had so thoroughly incorporated the mindset of the master that all relations with others could only be governed by the complementary terms of subjection and submission, without which these power relations would begin to collapse."
Tiny, heavily controlled nation, with a huge boner for itself. Nationalism higher than you can imagine. Bam. Unified society. Unified societies equal results. Individual freedoms are pushed to the side in favor of nationalistic actions.
Because it's a mountainous island region. There is a reason Japanese never spread into the mainland until the industrial revolution. They would've been destined to be like other SE Asian countries if anyone could get at them.
its' the same reason the British were a powerful Empire. because they were an Island nation and was difficult to invade.
Also, being an Island nation meant a focus on the navy. All historically powerful and dominant Empires focused on the Navy. It was a US general that wrote a book about that...i forgot what it was called or his name. but it was the reason the US focused on their navy so much, and made the US a world power.
Part of the reason is that the Boshin War was basically a civil war; the southern domains which allied with the Imperial Court viewed the Tokugawa Shogunate as having betrayed Japan by opening up to foreigners and sought to oust them. They ended up having to modernize in order to defeat the remnants of the Shogunate, who had already acquired Western arms and training. Once they were in power, the new Meiji Government realized that it would be better to keep industrializing and re-negotiate the unequal treaties the Shogunate had originally negotiated because, as others have pointed out, they saw what was happening to China. The Meiji Government wasn't so foolish to think they could put the genie back in the bottle after Sakoku had ended, and it clearly wouldn't have worked given that it originally ended due to the West's showing of force.
It's Alfred Thayer Mahan's "The Influence of Sea Power Upon History"
>Why is it that Japan was the only country in history which was able to self-industrialize and compete with the Western powers?
wew lad
Chinese let themselves be exploited, Japan took no shit after the boshin war
Ainu genes (one of the last East Aryan tribes). Even with shitty Mongoloid contamination the Aryan power still prevails.
>East Aryan
Ainu are just Siberian mongrels.
"Here, we study the genetic relationship of the Ainu with other East Asian and Siberian populations outside the Japanese archipelago using genome-wide genotyping data. We find that the Ainu represent a deep branch of East Asian diversity more basal than all present-day East Asian farmers. However, we did not find a genetic connection between the Ainu and populations of the Tibetan plateau, rejecting their long-held hypothetical connection based on Y chromosome data. Unlike all other East Asian populations investigated, the Ainu have a closer genetic relationship with northeast Siberians than with central Siberians, suggesting ancient connections among populations around the sea of Okhotsk. "
"Populations outside of East Asia have a symmetric relationship with the Ainu and East Asian farmer populations (Ami, Atayal, Dai, Lahu and Sherpa), suggesting that the Ainu do not harbor substantial non-East Asian ancestry."
"The Ainu form a clade with East Asian populations in comparison to contemporary populations outside of East Asia as well as to archaic hominins (|D| < 3 SD), which suggests that the Ainu do not harbor a substantial amount of non-East Asian ancestry. "
"The Ainu are more closely related to lowland East Asian farmer populations (Ami, Atayal, Dai and Lahu) than to the Sherpa or to Tibetans,"
"Northeast Siberians (Itelmen and Chukchi) are more closely related to the Ainu than to the other East Asians (Ami, Atayal, Dai, Lahu and the Sherpa)"
and so on
Wow, forgot my source
genetics.org
By the way you can check the Ainu's closest relatives here, see how Aryan they look.
youtube.com
I'm also fascinated by the possibility that those weird Jomon dogu figurines actually represent people wearing Siberian-style snow goggles.
Japanese people have the unbeatable samurai spirit or 'samurai-takuraku'.
Everything they do must be done with honour, integrity, and extreme intensity, so they get amazing results every time.
The 'nanban-doshi' tried on multiple occasions to invade and colonise, but each time were beaten back, and each time the Samurai learned more of their enemy, until the Samurai were stronger.
This is why Western people revere the samurai, and teach their children to fear them above all things.
They have a high average IQ and had a good government under which to start the industrialization process.
The problem with China was bad governance.
What about a samurai vs a viking?
Back then there was no "Japan" to speak of though.
en.wikipedia.org
Its all pretty much down to this guy and others like him.
>Korea, Taiwan, Singapore
None of them self-industrialized. Singapore was industrialized by Britain. Korea and the ROC were industrialized by the U.S.
The Brits helped em out a bit.
But the Japanese are a unique and isolated people, kind of like Americans in that regard.
The Meiji Restoration.
The only empires that could've stood up to western powers during the early modern period were the Ottomans, Safavids, Mughals, and Qing. The Ottomans were stagnating under the weight of its own bureaucracy, the Safavids imploded on their own, Mughals imploded due to hindus, and the Qing were full on Brendan Fraser mode. Japan more or less agreed to western trade treaties and slipped under the radar until the Russo-Japanese war.
>Americans
>unique
>or isolated
WEW
>self-industrialize
>Japan
Strong sense of the nation-state, along with the Meiji restoration. Japan worked as a nation-state effectively before western contact, ensuring it wouldn't be colonized. It was also able to institute changes in it's governing structure due to it's nature as a nation-state, and not say a Qing empire which couldn't fundamentally reform with breaking apart.
That and
>self industrialize
Nice meme
Perry showed up after China was already getting BTFO
>which was able to self-industrialize
Wouldn't really call it "self"-industrialize when they recieved huge incentives from the US, fearing japs may go commie if left to their own luck.
>the Qing were full on Brendan Fraser mode
I just have to know what you mean by this. No bullshit. Is Brendan Fraser a meme or something that I'm just not cool enough to get?
JUST
This retarded OP thinks the Japs were isolated from the West.
Also these retardsSeem to ignore 1600-1850 when Tokugawa went full /pol/.
People here talk about the pre-ww2 industrialization, not the post-ww2 re-industrialization since ww2 ruined Japan.
...
Hmm it's almost like there was an event that changed Japan's historical development...
>Korea and the ROC were industrialized by the U.S.
And Japan.
You're forgetting the Ethiopian empire, which did pretty well for itself for a while.
Moonshot. It's very lonely up there.
Suck it up you know it's true.
Especially Japan.
Eventually getting cucked by Italians isn't a great accomplishment, but I do appreciate the Ethiopians fervour. They did well.
knock knock
who's that
it's the us
open up bitch
"Shit, we're totally outdated and stand no chance in comparison with the Westerners" is, while not totally independent, still far from foreigners industrializing the country.
Apparently Qajar Persia had violent movements of westernization, at least politically and ideologically, even establishing constitutional monarchy for a small period of time in the early 20th century. I don't know if that translated into technological "westernization" and industrialization too but would've probably been the case in the long run.
And not so much later you have the Pahlevis of course.
Japan was a nation-state in the same sense that France, Italy or Germany were nation-states: it unified during the modernization process.
Following the fall of the Qing, Republican China was as much of a nation-state as pre-modern Japan.
Japan unified a few centuries before the big modernization process called the Meiji revolution.
Okay?
OP's claim of
>self-industrialized
is literal bullshit.
Who was in charge of that industrialization? The Japanese or foreigners? If the answer is the Japanese (and it is), then yes, it is self-industrialization.
>Japan
>self-industrialise
They imported large quantities of foreign made tooling, machines, and experts.
It's also worth bearing in mind that Japan didn't fully industrialise until after WW2. Just take a broad look at their production numbers during the war, not the capacity of a fully industrialised nation.
Then pretty much means that every nation that went through a period of industrialization was self-industrialized.
Which is obviously a starch contrast from "Why is it that Japan was the only country in history which was able to self-industrialize"
If I can stretch the French analogy, centralization and homogenization started in France under the Ancien Regime and was largely completed in the Revolutionary era. In Japan, it started under the Tokugawa shogunate and was largely completed in the Meiji era. One very visible marker is the creation of the standardized national language, and the transformation of traditional provinces and fiefs into administrative prefectures.
So every industrial nation not occupied by a foreign government has self-industrialized?
Self-industrialized = done by yourself
Not, done with the helps of foreigners
Never actually thought about the fact the ottomans did quite well in ww1 as 'relativity' modern forces
Other nations were industrialized while they were under control of foreign powers, so no, those are not self-industrialized.
Which also answers ops question, Japan was one of the very few countries in Asia not more or less under foreign control.
It gets hard to define help of foreigners (there has always been knowledge transfer after all), but basically that's what it comes to though I would also count foreign-funded industrialization as not self-industrialization.
Federal states aren't less modern than centralized ones.
But feudal states are.
When? Back in the 17th century? Nope
The Meiji restoriation period was at the end of the shogunate, which was overtaken thanks to British and French intervention during the Boshin War. The Meiji government was also fashioned very closely to western governments according to western interests.
Japan's social, poilitical and technological modernization started through interventionism. And the reson they weren't a colony is more than likely geographical.
Historically speaking, Japan was always technologically and socially lagging behind China and Europe.