Seeing as Christianity is cucked beyond repair, and seeing as atheism leads to death, what religion could cause a Western Renaissance?
>Islam Out of the question.
>Paganism Based. Strong morals. Too particularist though. Could degenerate into petty bickerings between ingroups and vulnerability to divide and conquer tactics.
We want something that is just enough particularist as to allow for the exclusion of otherkin, and just enough universal as to embrace all Westerners.
>Hellenic Paganism All the positives associated with Norse Paganism, but with a much larger collection of ancient texts. History of ancient Greece and Rome. Tended to see other people's gods are their own, so easily adaptable. (Ex: Celtic Taranis = Jupiter.)
>Buddhism Seeks the end of suffering, not of sin/guilt. It can be especially based in the Evolian interpretation, namely that it was an exclusive religion of and for the Aryans. Emphasis on the individual rather than the collective can lead to the same faults are Christianity. Dangerously compassionate. Can easily degenerate into cuckoldry and acceptance of otherkin.
>Thelema Interesting. Emphasizes will-power. Also endorsed by Evola. Vast wealth of medieval, renaissance and modern occult literature to go with it. Dangerously Masonic, Judaic and Egyptian symbolism could degenerate into cosmopolitanism, exoticism and openness to otherkin. Individualist (see Buddhism).
Some mix of hellenic polytheism and thelema probably.
Jason Lopez
the west had its time, and its now colapsing and eating itself....no religion can revive it.....if anything the only religion that might unite large chunks of the west might be stupid versions of fundamentalist christianity that might make us slide back
also, paganism isnt a religion, its a collection of religious practices, modern 'paganism' is a naive fantasy
helenistic paganism has no bareing on modern peoples and is too thought of as mythology and history to come back islam has no real traction in the west culturaly and budhism has the abve problem of cultural traction
you need to acept that the world is about to change its axis and the west will fall slowly but surely
Jaxon Kelly
>Islam >Out of the question Not quite, according to the founder of Thelema and certain later adherents but that's a long and convoluted story.
>Paganism Almost a meaningless designation without further specificity. Could mean anything or nothing.
>Hellenic Paganism I do think the later Neoplatonic and GMP materials are pretty based. If you wanted a group more inclined toward "renaissance", these are probably it.
>Buddhism I have no clue why any serious Buddhist practitioner would give a wet shit about revitalizing any given culture.
>Thelema 1) If you can't handle the Egyptian, Kabbalistic, and to a lesser extent Freemasonic materials it's rooted in then it's not for you. 2) Evola didn't REALLY endorse that shit, and if you want to take a right-leaning perspective on the practices I recommend Fuller and Pessoa (i.e. Brazilian Integralism), though I would also question any approach to Thelema that favors traditionalism over synchretism and I doubt actual Adepts are any more interested in cultural revitalization than any given Buddhist.
Sebastian Carter
>Hellenic Paganism
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winrar
Something akin to this is the only real answer
Robert Allen
things like thelema dont have mass apeal....their char is in the mystery of it all, and i dont think it would work or suit a large population
mystery religions wont work
Andrew Peterson
They worked for a very long time before and after the consolidation of the Church.
The good thing about Thelema is that it's tiered. You can approach the system entirely as a secular philosophy or as a corpus of ritual practices, or somewhere between.
The only litmus test for a Thelemite's acceptance of Liber L.
Austin Evans
>mystery religions wont work
They do when they are combined with hallucinogenic revelries
Hudson Evans
Why not Judaism?
Thomas Johnson
>implying any of this will enkindle a "Western Renaissance" Whatever the hell this is even supposed to be
Nathan Jenkins
If you're looking for accessible, Hebrew mysticism rarely fits the bill.
Michael Price
The thing is that in Greece and Rome paganism came in both flavours, to suite different personalities. According to Evola and Guenon, every religion was supposed to have a more normie side as well as a more esoteric side. Ex: Islam and Sufism, Judaism and Kabbalah.
The Christian esoteric side was supposed to be either Gnosticism or Hermeticism, but those fools in Rome fucked up by persecuting everything and everyone.
>You can approach the system entirely as a secular philosophy I forgot how close Thelema is to the philosophy of Nietzsche. Coincidence or was old man Crowley a fan of him?
Brody Fisher
But it's the most well-developed and worthwhile
Brody Brooks
i dont think exsisting religions will do......paganism is and was over for fucking ever and is now only practiced by people pissed off at mom/dad/christianity, islam has a culture clash thing with the west, budhism has a new age flakey reputation in the west
we know these religiouns and know enough about the to be skepticle of them, to view them as foreign odities we dot actualy believe
a new religion would need to be new, organic, and a product of the culture.....and the trouble with the information age is that such a religion would have no privacy to develop and would get thought of as cultish very quickly...think about it, established religions are all old, there are hadly and new ones
Ryan Gonzalez
No, Crowley was a fan. I think N's role is overplayed. The Old Goat seemed to be lifting far more from Schopenhauer proper, honestly.
Jose Moore
>what religion could cause a Western Renaissance None, especially not an indigenization of another, previously existing religious system. Rather than see the West in decline, as people have for fucking ever, see it as a transformation. Religion, despite claims of stagnation, is in a state of constant transformation as social conditions effect religious institutions, the wider religious community, and interpretations of the given religious discourse. >Emphasis on the individual I don't think you have a very firm understanding of Buddhism, or any other religion you're posing. Your emphasis on "degeneracy" and concern for a very slim minority of weirdos tells me you are a /pol/tard.
Eli Richardson
Wow, you're like.. stupid as fuck. "Cucked" check up the definition of that word, just because our Pope is a fucking tard and a false prophet does not mean every catholic is, for example. This is something you assumed. Go eat shit.
Isaac Baker
the esoteric also flourished in an age when it could be kept quite secret....today i can find digital archives of tibetan/hebrew/hermetic/thelemic, etc texts that would have been saved for initiates and people at higher levels.....today would an esoteric system survive when its scripure could end up dumped on the web and spread like fire across social media
Anthony Howard
>most well developed/worthwhile Um, I could quibble about that in terms of Vajrayana and Saivism, but w/e.
>paganism Again, a meaningless designation without specificity. If you're talking about the fat girl who gets books on "Wicca" from the local Barnes and Noble wearing a bajillion crystals and shitty commercial 'magic' oils to hide her stank, then fine.
I'm a practicing Thelemite and was not exposed to much Christianity as a child, I was raised secular.
Michael Hill
judaism is an old school religion....it was the religion of a specific people, their god is the jewish peoples god and he doesnt care about converting the world.....judaism isnt a hugely convert friendly religion(its conservative sects wont often acept you if your mom wasnt jewish) judaism in a way is a living dinosaur of a religion
Jayden Kelly
im saying the wont work across a country the size of america....i think mystery religions are better suited to smaller populations
Camden Hughes
>Christianity is cucked beyond repair
Is it? Seems to be fixing itself, and is within a stable society.
>Islam >Out of the question.
Why? Too logical? makes too much sense? Too fluid and adaptable?
lmao right, sacrificing virgins to appease gods and masturbating with feces for a better farming season is totally based.
>Buddhism >Seeks the end of suffering, not of sin/guilt.
only legit thing you said. but Buddhism fits into any religion, and is more of a personal spirituality than a social thing.
>Thelema
all flaws you mentioned could happen with any religion. this also makes no sense.
Jeremiah Green
But you wouldn't fully understand these texts without the proper instruction. This is why many esoteric orders function in a hierarchical lineage.
Jordan Collins
HELLENISED BUDDHISM
Nicholas Anderson
All sects of Judaism accept converts. You can be half Zulu and half Eskimo, but if you're devoted to the exaltation of God then even a Chassidic rabbi will help you become a Jew
Adrian Jackson
This could be easily remedied by having an oral tradition and or a tier system like Freemasonry. Freemasonry is a good example because even though there are countless thousands of books about Freemasonry, as well as "whistleblowers", nobody can claim with absolute certainty what it' s all about. And even if they do know, there will always remain a shadow of a doubt.
Ryan Campbell
I like it. Please develop further.
Caleb Stewart
>Is it? Seems to be fixing itself, and is within a stable society. america and europe are becoming increasingly non religious(mind you im not saying atheistic, just, nont concerened or going to church or claiming the religion just out of habbit)
Isaiah Bennett
>judaism is an old school religion
So? People back in the day were just as smart as people are today. They just had less tools and less information. Judaism is a very rational religion if you look at the core of it's ideas.
>their god is the jewish peoples god and he doesnt care about converting the world
It actually did. It just lost the conversion-fight to Christianity and Islam because it shifted and corrupted overtime. Look at a Jew from Africa and one from Europe, and tell me they didn't convert people.
>judaism in a way is a living dinosaur of a religion
and yet it's still better than anything else you listed, and equal to Islam and Christianity.
Robert Collins
This too. Nobody can make any sense of an alchemical text without having the proper hermeneutical key, even though they are publicly avaiable.
Josiah Myers
>the West LMAO
And you don't pick religions all willy-nilly, you pick them based on truth. It is also foretold that Christians will lose their way and that only few faithful will remain in the end.
Easton Torres
Nah, the cool shit in Judaism was mostly developed in the medieval HRE or Sasanian Persia. The normie shit is mostly identical to ancient Judaism, but the mysticism is way off.
Alexander Richardson
>you will never learn at the feet of Buddhist, Platonist, and Zoroastrian masters at Kampyr-Tepe.
Zachary Walker
>america and europe are becoming increasingly non religious
does that matter? popularity of church/temple/whatever have always waxed and waned throughout history. There is a rise in spirituality in the west. Spirituality and Religiousness are 2 different things. The rise in spirituality is forcing churches (and temples, and even mosques) to adapt and stop being about traditions and rules, and focus on community and inner peace, as religions were meant to.
Religions are just moving away from a victorian era influence. that's not the same as dying.
Nolan Torres
>lmao right, sacrificing virgins to appease gods and masturbating with feces for a better farming season is totally based. What a gross misinterpretation. Also implying it can't be reformed under, say, a Neoplatonic exegesis. Judaism had animal sacrifice, polygamy and stoning. But they don't do that anymore.
true, but i think it effects the size of the poop of posible initiates..its easier to spared a lie or misconception then it is to correct it
Jaxson Moore
except paganism has a ton of flaws because it focuses on concepts like nature, and nature isn't good. it's not bad, either. It's irrational, illogical, and uncaring/unaware. we know the science of nature, and don't need to use the concept of gods to explain natural phenomena.
The only appeal of paganism is humans naturally desire to worship, and paganism is the simplest, least deep, and least intellectual form of worship. The question a small child can ask, "But what created pagan gods" literally destroyed the entire concept.
You need logic in a religion, and paganism lacks that.
Michael Bailey
> religion is like cosplay! > haha i'll skip thousands of years of history
Christianity or Aristotle or both will save Europe or nothing at all.
Levi Ward
>Christianity >Aristotleanism CATHOLICS OUT
John Barnes
>paganism has a ton of flaws because it focuses on concepts like nature For like the third time, which paganism? There are dozens upon dozens of sects that self apply that label, and not all of them have the same doctrines, especially w/r/t nature, especially by the time we're getting to the Neoplatonic revisions of the Greek Magical Papyri.
Jonathan Ross
How do you explain Mormonism and Scientology spreading?
Eli Hill
This guy knows it.
Camden Myers
Scientology's not spreading though, it's contracting, badly, with probably around 20k members globally, given how spectacularly the Ideal Org project is failing.
Mormonism's a different question though, and like most thing it has to do with their their history, in this case of survival and propagation at all costs.
Joshua Reyes
>For like the third time, which paganism?
Doesn't matter.
>There are dozens upon dozens of sects that self apply that label
and they all appeared from the same aspect of human nature: believing nature should be worshiped.
>and not all of them have the same doctrines
yes, but they all have the same ideals.
you focus too much on the details, and ignore the bigger picture. Paganism is fundamentally flawed. It's why it's been replaced by significantly more logical religions. Everyone wants to pretend Islam and Christianity spread by force, but that's not true. They spread because they made more sense. Same with Buddhism and Sikhism and Jainism and Taoism. They're more about objectively viewing nature as it is, not pinning things to divine entities that can easily be dismissed with simple logic.
Henry Cox
A wholly new Religion doesn't make that much sense, because new religious movements come into being out of previous religious cultural ferment, usually with a period of social change or chaos as a catalyst. Would you call Mormonism a new religion, or the Christian Scientists? How about the fast spreading Soka Gokkai movement, with its basis on Nichiren Buddhism and origins in the 1930s? Remember that Christianity and Islam were once new religious movements.
Michael Richardson
>You need logic in a religion, and paganism lacks that. Lol like Ape said, which Paganism? Reminder that the " logical" system of Christian theology is basically copy pasta of Neoplatonism and Aristotle.
Also so-called Pagans not only worship nature, but, sometimes even more so, emphasize the ancestors and the community. In other words they just want to be safe from the filth and insanity of our modern " culture", as well as from overarching universalistic totalitarian and deracinated idelogies such as Christianity and Marxism, and I can totally identify with that.
Hunter Cox
as said, Scientology isn't spreading.
Mormonism is spreading because it's still basically Christianity. it'll also stall soon, too. Why is Islam spreading? a lot of people convert to Islam in the west as well.
Isaiah Perez
The only thing that can save you is a deathcult based on martial prowess, freedom of the individual and the ideal or justice.
Aaron Garcia
I would that your bosom, fragrant with health, were constantly the dwelling place of noble thoughts, user.
Jace Torres
Is neoplatonism a religion?
Noah Baker
>Seems to be fixing itself, How so? Modern Christians are the biggest SJW cucks ever. You cant reconcile Christianity's message of love and universalism with nationalism.
Easton Reyes
>Everyone wants to pretend Islam and Christianity spread by force, but that's not true. I'm not sure how this came up.
>They spread because they made more sense. Well, I'd think it's more to do with rhetoric but at that point I'm equivocating.
>Same with Buddhism and Sikhism and Jainism and Taoism. Here's the rub, though, there are plenty of points inside of Taoism or Buddhism that have been called historically and commonly "pagan", hence why I'm asking for specificity.
>They're more about objectively viewing nature as it is, not pinning things to divine entities that can easily be dismissed with simple logic. So much for all these contemplative Buddhist godforms, then, and probably most of Hesiod's Theogony given late mystical interpretations.
Nolan Jenkins
>Everyone wants to pretend Islam and Christianity spread by force, but that's not true. lol bullshit.
Luis Sanders
...
Owen Cook
No, it's just the truth.
Justin Smith
Depends on application. In terms of Hellenic Paganism I'd say "yes" more often than not the later in general Hellenic/Roman history we go, especially when we get to periods of secular state religion.
Liam King
What about zoroastranism? It's similar to christianity but your dad hasn't heard of it, it's perfect for hipsters.
Jace Ross
Unfortunately, no. And it's too complicated for the average person to get.
Grayson Phillips
strike out the freedom of he individual and islam is literally perfect OP question. ive been reading more about muhammad lately the whole "peace though submission" thing makes sense if you take out the nonsensical arab bullshit. shame his follower was batshit insane
Robert Baker
>Reminder that the " logical" system of Christian theology is basically copy pasta of Neoplatonism and Aristotle.
except on the grassroots level today, no one thinks that. They see things like "Love your neighbor" and "do good works with your community" and "Worship the all encompassing God that is a more logical concept than the god of farts or whatever the fuck."
>emphasize the ancestors
also illogical. ancestor worship is very primal and backwards.
>and the community
modern paganism began this because it's influenced by Christianity. They took the Judeo-Christian ideal and just took it.
>want to be safe from the filth and insanity of our modern " culture" >overarching universalistic totalitarian and deracinated idelogies
so...any religion can do in this regard. Why pick something illogical like paganism? Christianity has so many sects that using it as an example makes no sense. Marxism isn't a religion, but a flaw concept of what society will be, even though he's wrong on many accounts.
Sebastian Sullivan
Paganism is dead, Buddhism simply does not have enough of a following, tradition or even a desire to prosletyze. It's either Christianity or Islam, and the West is overwhelmingly choosing for Islam.
Nolan Roberts
Fuck off my thread.
David Wood
You realize Taoism has a pantheon of celestial beings, right? I would say these movements were adopted because they had greater technologies to offer the laity, in terms of alleviating current anxiety and existential grief.
Owen Richardson
>as atheism leads to death
What? No it doesn't. Atheism is fine if secular countries don't import hordes of catholics and Muslims.
Eli Peterson
>Why pick something illogical like paganism? Why do you care? Also your idea that a religion has to be logical is fundamentaly flawed. Religious sentiment is illogical, or rather non- or even supra-logical in its root. Only theology has to be logical and the Pagans Plato and Aristotle have given the bluerprint of every theological system that followed.
Jackson Long
>choosing
Wyatt Collins
Nice dodge, but at the end of the day christian theology owes far too much to neo-platonic philosophy for you to make the distinction you are trying to make between "illogical polytheism" and "rational monotheism".
Hudson Richardson
I see some positive aspects in the baha'i faith.
If Christianity declines I'd much rather an explosion of baha'i than Islam.
Baha'i might be the way to save the west.
Ayden Allen
>I'm not sure how this came up.
part of my point. Islam and Christianity appeared from the grassroots level because pagans realized paganism was illogical and irrational, so they converted. When a lot of them converted, political figures usurped the ideas for personal gain.
>that have been called historically and commonly "pagan"
what the masses call it doesn't matter. That's nothing more than the rabble being the rabble. Ultimately, they disregard pagan gods.
Hudson Phillips
There are Buddhism movements that do proselytize. The Soka Gakkai movement claims 12 million members in 192 countries, for example. You're in MY thread, sir.
Anthony Reyes
>>Paganism is dead Wrong.
>>the West is overwhelmingly choosing for Islam Also wrong.
Parker Sanchez
Except that's exactly what they do and that is mainly due to loss of faith and identity. If Sweden was Christian, it would be out of the question to bring Muslims, for example.
Justin Smith
>It is also foretold that Christians will lose their way and that only few faithful will remain in the end
What an amazing prediction lol. Even the authors is the bible knew it couldn't last for long.
Nathan Morgan
>Ultimately, they disregard pagan gods.
Cameron Morris
>You realize Taoism has a pantheon of celestial beings, right?
only traditionally. At it's core, the idea of Taoism either says pagan entities are simply products of a nature greater than themselves, or simply don't exist.
God, shut up. Atheism has existed openly in the Muslim world for most of history. Actually, when Atheist ideals take power, they end up with the worst genocides in human history.
Dogma and tradition are meaningless. Christianity, at it's core, is based off of Judaism. Early Christianity incorporating pagan traditions is irrelevant, and has been for a very long time.
Ayden Gomez
>>pagans realized paganism was illogical and irrational, so they converted You keep saying this and it still remains bullshit. Look up some of the Theodosian Edicts against polytheist belief in the late roman empire.
Isaiah Miller
Never mind the early Buddhist Tantras credit Saivism for their godforms, praising their mantras, which experience continued veneration.
Hudson Howard
Yeah, they predicted Christ to return within their lifetimes. It's an amazing feat that Christianity survived for thousands of years with this blatant failed prophecy. More proof that religions need not have nothing "logical" or "rational" about it to thrive, as that other user wrongly asserts.
Leo Cox
>the idea of Taoism either says pagan entities are simply products of a nature greater than themselves, or simply don't exist. Wait, in what way is this different from Chaldean Oracles or any of the Neoplatonic texts it draws from?
Aiden Green
>explosion of baha'i than Islam.
it's the same shit, though. Baha'i basically existed as an attempt to remove political power from Islam. Just Sufism and Shi'ism.
>Some Taoists believe in pagan gods >therefore, Taoism is pagan
plz. There are Taoists that believe in the God in Islam or Christianity, as well. Does that make all Taoists Muslim or Christian?
Benjamin Diaz
>>Early Christianity incorporating pagan traditions is irrelevant That's not what I'm talking about though and Dogma and Tradition are not irrelevant for the faithful even if they do look for ways to ignore things in said Dogma and Tradition they don't like or agree with.
Landon Miller
>Islam and Christianity appeared from the grassroots level because pagans realized paganism was illogical and irrational >Muzzies and Christcucks calling others 'irrational' and 'illogical'
Dominic Stewart
> They
Where did Jesus say he would come back within their lifetime?
Cooper Jenkins
>only traditionally Why do you assume you know more about Taoist religion than Taoists themselves? You don't. You sounds like westerner crypto-atheist Buddhist "converts" that claim that Buddhists don't worships gods, or do so only "symbollically/traditionally/ironically" or whatever bs they came up with, but when you look at Mongolia and Tibet, it's a whole different story.
Brayden White
>If Sweden was Christian, it would be out of the question to bring Muslims, for example Do you really believe that? The fucking Pope said the Arab invasion of Europe was a social reality and that it's a good thing.
Merkel is a devout Christian and the daughter of a theologian, her party is literally called the Christian Democratic Union.
Ethan Rogers
>late roman empire.
proving my point. After Christianity spread through the Empire at a grassroots level, after people converted in huge swaths across the Empire, did the politicians take advantage of it.
does it matter? all of humanity follows the same sort of pattern. Monotheism is just the logical end point.
You are basically focusing a stepping stone on a mountain, instead of the peak.
Brody Gonzalez
>Ultimately, they disregard pagan gods
We're not all theravadin exotericucks, friendo.
Henry Reyes
I'm more specifically referring to Vajrayana iterations of Buddhism.
Landon Russell
>The idea of Taoism either says pagan entities are simply products of a nature greater than themselves, or simply don't exist So you're telling me that Taoism does not believe in the creation of the universe? Also, your "products of a greater nature" sounds a lot to me as "personification of what they represent", which in turn are pagan gods.
Jaxon Brooks
So you're doing that thing where we pretend citizens get to vote on immigration policy.
Except statistics show that nobody ever wanted more immigrants.
Governments do what they want, regardless of public approval.
You've fallen for the biggest lie of democracy. You blame the people, who supposedly have the power, but they don't make any important decisions.
Tyler Torres
From my cursory glance I don't think it's as violent or as easily prone to fundamentalism as orthodox Islam.
Juan Kelly
How "helenized" was the buddhism apart fron aesthetics?
Isaac Taylor
>Monotheism is just the logical end point. Gee, what should I do with all these mystical schools of nondualist mysticism inside of these otherwise monotheistic faiths?
ayyy
Cameron Thomas
Dude? Christianity was not a majority religion before Theodosius started having people being murdered for practicing other faiths.
Brandon Long
Why is everyone here trying to pick and choose religion like groceries?
Are people really this dependent?
Jackson Cook
>Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. >Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. >Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Christcuck damage control incoming in 3, 2...
Nathan Perry
I find Mahayana's focus on synthesizing fascinating. Kannon can be seen in reference to Amaterasu and the Virgin Mary, as well in its original Buddhist context all simultaneously. It's the religious culture we live in, I guess. I'm just interested in understanding different frameworks, and it's easier to learn when you speak from within them.
Jace Garcia
Arguable. Aesthesis actually plays a huge role in various esoteric transmission of Hinduism and Buddhism, so that feel's more important than it seems at first glance.
Also, there's evidence of certain Hellenic, Indoiranian, and high Mesopotamian concepts sharing some common root (possibly "Aryan" though evidence is mounting of Mesopotamian origins for shit like the kundalini current).
