What was the greatest naval defeat of human history? I suggest the battle of the thames 2016...

What was the greatest naval defeat of human history? I suggest the battle of the thames 2016. Farage was able to force the remain fleet to engage in decisive battle. Remain fleet was absolute destroyed by admiral Farage's flotilla

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cottage
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cottage

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cottage
Great victory over the jap.

Who in their right mind would invade Alaska? It's nothing but bears and winter wastelands.

Japs thought the islands could be used to base bombers.

Battle off Samar, aka TAFFY 3

a bunch of destroyer escorts, 3 Fletchers and some escort carriers take on the IJN's finest... AND FUCKING BTFO THE JAPANESE FLEET. (Along with literally every combat aircraft nearby carriers and land-based bombers could send)

To this day the Japanese Navy insists that Taffy 3 was comprised of Heavy Cruisers.

Hundreds of aircraft vs ships with WW1 tier AA gee I wonder who'd win this fight.

Well, aren't you a killjoy.

I could talk about how 3 Japanese fighter-bombers sunk the Prince of Wales and Repulse or how Henry "Hammering Hank" Talmage Elrod sank the Kisaragi, but planes vs ships in WW2 is boring and the topic did say naval defeats.

requesting the russian japanese war greentext

You already won the referendum give it a rest.

Force z was sunk by hundred Nells and Bettys, not 3 foghter-bombers.

Memery aside, could anyone recommend me a book on modern naval strategies?

Kantai Collection

>WWI AAA

What? The Action off Samar (Calling it Taffy 3 isn't really the same. Taffy 3 was the unit that received the blunt of the attack, but Taffy 4 and 5 were involved, and other units as well), was an attack by modern battleships, cruisers of all sorts, and destroyers against a small group of destroyer escorts and escort carriers.

Do you know what escort carriers were? They were liberty ships, cargo ships, given a flat top and a handful of planes. There were planes involved in the Action, but they had been armed for strafing duty to provide air support for the Marines fighting on the island of Samar.

Most of what the U.S. aircraft did that day was a distraction. They'd literally go in and shoot ships like the Yamato with .50 caliber machine guns. Once they ran out of ammo, they'd still go on strafing runs, just to keep the Japanese crews' heads down.

There was this one pilot, I think he was in a Hellcat. Had already spent all his ammunition. His wingmate had some rounds left, so they both went on a strafing run together, he went in just so they would shoot at him instead of his wingmate. On their wavetop approach, an AAA shell exploded right in front of his plane, severely injuring him, and ripping off his cockpit canopy. Stunned, and not knowing if he survived, the pilot inverted his plain, drew his service pistol, and emptied it as he flew directly over the Japanese warship, close enough to see the shocked faces of the Japanese officers on the bridge. The AAA guns held their fire as he disengaged, and he survived to tell the tale.

So yeah, there were planes. But mostly it was a classic Naval battle, all down to gunnery and maneuvering.

You know literally nothing about the battle off samar except what has been fed to you as memes.

How to into naval warfare?

>Do you know what escort carriers were? They were liberty ships, cargo ships, given a flat top and a handful of planes.
Do YOU KNOW what escort carriers were? The casablanca class was built from keel up as carriers. They had nothing at all to do with liberty ships, and had an engine about six times as powerful as a liberty ship. They carried 28 aircraft, or fuckton more than a handful.

>What? The Action off Samar (Calling it Taffy 3 isn't really the same. Taffy 3 was the unit that received the blunt of the attack, but Taffy 4 and 5 were involved, and other units as well), was an attack by modern battleships, cruisers of all sorts, and destroyers against a small group of destroyer escorts and escort carriers.
There was a single modern battleship involved in the battle. The others were WW1 vintage or built just after WW1. They had absolute shit for AA. You need to read a book. Nigger.

Also there were no Taffy 4 and Taffy 5 at Samar. There were Taffy 1 and 2.

28 is still nothing compared to a regular fleet carrier that could carry 110.

It doesn't matter that their AA was shit. As the other user pointed out, the planes were armed with jack shit that could do anything to the ships because they were either carrying bombs for ground assault or they were fighters with machine guns that would barely do anything. All the damage that was done to the Center Force was through surface action from the destroyers and even one escort carrier that hit a cruiser with her 5 inch guns.

Lastly just because some aircraft launched without AP bombs or torpedoes doesn't mean all of the 400+ aircraft did.
Samar was not a classic gunnery battle you fucking moron.

There were 18 escort carriers. They had more and better aircraft on them than the entire kido butai did at Pearl Harbor.

They had FM-2 Wildcats and older Avengers. I wouldn't call them better aircraft.

Are you trying to be funny? TBM Avengers were introduced a year after Pearl Harbor. You think Japanese magic engineering produced better aircraft in 1937?

battle of midway

hanzo steeeeeeel!

The primary advantage of an aircraft carrier over a battleship is that it's planes give it a significantly longer range than the big guns of the battleship, so the carrier can attack the battleship when it is incapable of striking back. In the battle off Samar taffy 3 was caught right in the effective range of the IJA ships with their pants down. Their aircraft were armed for a land bombardment and so had high explosive bombs instead of the armor piercing or air launch torpedos you would want for attacking a ship, so we're almost entirely ineffective.

are you stupid

You are retarded and know nothing about what happened off Samar. The carriers were not within effective range of the Jap big guns. Two of three taffies were nowhere near Kurita's fleet, and of Taffy 3 all but Gambier Bay were both at the extreme range of Jap guns and behind a smoke screen and a squall. Even if the Jap fleet was uncomfortably close, they were still unable to fight back against an enemy that could bombard them at will.
Only the very first strikes launched without antiship weapons. Stop regurgitating dumb cracked memes. Most of Taffy 3's and all of taffy 1 and 2's strikes launched with antiship weapons.

Tell us then which ships were effectively sunk and damaged by air power then.

Most of the accounts of damage on the Center Force came from torpedo attacks launched from the destroyers and from the 5 inch guns.

Obligatory

Suzuya, Haguro, Chikuma, Chokai

I'll give you Suzuya.

Haguro came under torpedo and 5 inch gun attack from Hoel and Heermann.

Chikuma also came under attack from Heermann and Roberts. But I guess I'll also give you this one since air torpedos did contribute to her sinking.

Choukai had dueled with Roberts and she was sunk when White Plains hit Choukai's torpedos with one of her 5 inch guns.

Destroyers put Kumano out of action but the rest were hit and slowed by aircraft you dick sucking fag.
Tone was also hit by aircraft but not slowed.
But weren't you claiming that all the US aircraft did was strafe with 50 cal?
Dumb fag.

I don't get what the point of this post is. But you were the one saying that those ships you listed were primarily damaged by air power. I wasn't saying they weren't attacked by air power, but surface action contributed a lot too to that bunch.

Especially Choukai who was confirmed to be sunk by surface action instead of aircraft.

Also unsurprisingly the primary source for the version where a CVE sinks Chokai with its tail gun is a pop history book whose avowed purpose is to sensationalize the events at Samar.
Stop getting your history from cracked you retard.

Surface action contributed by slowing down the pursuing cruisers and harassing them. Believe it or not, 5 inch guns didn't have much of an effect against heavy cruisers.

Where's your source then that Choukai wasn't sunk by White Plains hitting her Long Lance Torpedos then?

How about every reputable source ever? Try official military history maybe? Where is your source that says they can somehow pinpoint a 5 inch gun hit as leading to a ship sinking when that ship had been hit by several 500 lb bombs?

Maybe not in all history but Savo Island is easily the worst US naval defeat ever, Pearl Harbor being more of a spawn-camping event than a battle.

Except that Choukai was already dead in the water when her long lance torpedos exploded and then she was hit by only one 500 pound bomb.

You know how there are people who think katana was folded mirrion times and could cut a tank in two? You are the Amerilard version of that guy.

Give me your source then.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cottage
28 Americans and 4 Canadians were killed

Canadians have always been better shots

What is your source, tough guy?

I asked first. If you're that confident then in your answer then this should be easy.

You sound pretty confident yourself. Where is your source for the utterly unlikely claim you put forth? I mean, if you are willing to posit that a harried escort carrier could see 15000 yards away that it (and nothing else but it) it a torpedo, and that is why the ship sank, you must have some really fucking good source, no?
And let's mention also that this claim is not found in the AAR of the CVE that supposedly did this.
Fucking wiki experts, I wish they would all die

I can't. I lose my shit at the story every time. I don't even know where to begin if you asked me what was the most ridiculous event of the campaign.

By Samar, escort carriers were loading their air wings with a mixture to handle any threats, land or sea. They would be armed with antiship loadouts, or have a few planes in a flight capable of cracking ships.

Air strikes took out the Kongou's main radar. And by air strikes I mean "50cal fire".

We're not doubting you man. It was a combined arms naval encounter.

They were warned of Ozawa's fleet from one of the antisub air patrols, before Ozawa could bring his guns to bear.

They were. The escorts' effective smokescreens, coupled with the timely squall and inferior fire control of the Japanese, caused the carriers of Taffy 3 to escape, save for 2.

Almost all of Taffy 3's air wings did launch with some form of antiship loadout, a lesson learnt from... the battle of Surigao Strait.

From my source:
>In addition to their reconnaissance duties, the escort carriers were also notified to standby to attack the Japanese stragglers from the Battle of Surigao Strait. Because of this order, many of the CVEs were prepared to launch aircraft with torpedoes and semi-armor piercing bombs to deal with the stragglers of the Battle of Surigao Strait. Unknown by the CVE commanders, this planning would pay off ten-fold later in the morning during the Battle Off Samar.

Source: The Battle off Samar: Taffy 3 at Leyte Gulf, Chapter 5.

Re: a CVE hitting and sinking a Japanese Cruiser
>With its single 5-inch gun, CVE KALININ BAY hits CA CHIKUMA, quickly followed by another which brings fire and smoke from the cruisers' turret.
>The five remaining escort carriers continue southward firing their single 5-inch guns as they run. Escort carrier FANSHAW BAY scores five hits with her 5-inch gun on CA CHIKUMA. One brings smoke from her superstructure. Meanwhile, CVE WHITE PLAINS puts six shells into CA CHŌKAI, causing damage.

e: aircraft sinking the Suzuya, Haguro, Choukai and Chikuma
>Aircraft from Taffy II arrive and focus on CA SUZUYA. She is fatally crippled after several hits.
>Heavy cruiser CHIKUMA falls prey and is hit by aircraft from CVE GAMBIER BAY's Composite Squadron VC-10.
Please also note that Chikuma was raked with gunfire from at least three ships. DE Samuel B Roberts emptied their entire combat loadout at Chikuma. This means all their shots.
>Heavy cruiser CHŌKAI is put out of action by aircraft from CVE KITKUN BAY. The pilots take her by surprise and land two very-near misses, one direct hit astern, three direct hits on the bow and five more amidships. She drifts to a halt severely damaged and ablaze.

I have not seen anything regarding the sinking of the Haguro.

Souce for these 2 posts: bosamar.com/pages/bosintro

I'll admit, that was a very interesting read. I'll need to crosscheck with Combined Fleet to confirm the sinkings, but there's a lot of mention of naval gunnery in that source alone. There's also significant mention of air cover, which makes the Battle off Samar a very interesting one in terms of naval combat. I did not get the impression that it was mostly naval gunnery or air power, but a combination of both.

I'm pretty sure this source is not affected by Cracked memehistory, either.

Addenum

According to Combined Fleet, Haguro was sunk by a combined British task force in May 1945. She survived the Battle off Samar.

Haguro was hit and slowed by air power at Samar. Tone and Haruka were also hit but without being affected.
Being "raked" by 5 inch guns had little to no effect. Imagine that a M1A Abrams is raked by rifle fire for a hundred hours, then gets a 500 lb bomb dropped on its top. What would you think is more dangerous to the Abrams?
Samar was a confirmation that a surface fleet is outclassed by even second rate carriers with nominal escorts.

>They were.
Effective range is not your gun's maximum range, you dense motherfucker. The BBs never realistically threatened the CVEs except for Kongou, and while a portion of their CAs would have been, that's assuming they can close in and get around the squall without being missionkilled or worse.

>We're not doubting you man. It was a combined arms naval encounter.
Are you illiterate? Read the thread first before commenting on it. There are people in this thread, probably you before you hurriedly read some internet books, that claimed that aircraft only contributed to distracting because they only had .50 cal MGs.

>Re: a CVE hitting and sinking a Japanese Cruiser
Hitting != Sinking.
At least read your source carefully and try to obtain some background knowledge that will help you to understand what you read.

Raid on the medway

thank based Michiel