Mentally-out Jehovah's Witness here, trapped in cause I'll be shunned by my family if I formally leave the faith...

are you still cristan

Two ways, either by being disfellowshipped, or disassociating. Disfellowshipping involves a committee of elders establishing that you've committed a "gross sin" like smoking a cigarette, having a blood transfusion, or fucking someone in the ass. Then if you aren't sorry enough, you're booted from the congregation, and an announcement is made from the platform during the next meeting, something along the lines of "X is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." After that, all witnesses are to shun you (including family); if they see you at the grocery store they aren't even supposed to look in your direction, nevermind a quick hello. Anyone who fails to abide by the shunning mandate can be disfellowshipped and shunned themselves.

Meanwhile, disassociating involves sending a letter to your congregation elders declaring that you no longer wish to be known as a witness. This ends the same way as disfellowshipping, complete with others getting disfellowshipped if they're found to be associating with you.

Trust me, he won't make the decision to join without knowing it's a cult.

Agnostic atheist. I don't really give a shit as to whether God exists or not.

Did you dad require blood transfusions to stay alive, or has he known someone who has?

how was your mother able to associate with let alone marry your father if he wasn't a member?

>Then if you aren't sorry enough, you're booted from the congregation
That sounds like a system that can be gamed. If you don't believe in their rules, just do whatever the hell you want. When you get caught, pretend to be sorry, and they have to forgive you. It's in the rules.

Make a big show of what an evil sinner you are and how badly you want to be redeemed. When they give you a pass, go right back to doing whatever you want.

Aye.

She was raised a witness, fell away from it for a bit, married him, then got back into it hard around the time I was born.

In theory, but it's whether the elders feel you're sorry enough, and some elder bodies will look at a person cutting themselves and crying repentant tears of grief and still think "nah, this person is worldly scum."

Some of my family is Jenovah's Witnesses. I just don't talk about Jesus and God near them. My father seems agnostic so it's not an issue in my own home.

Compared to all of this, Atheism doesn't seem so bad.

Are the pamphlets just a pyramid scheme?

Why don't you drop some Orthodox redpills on your family?

The entire organization is basically a pyramid scheme, but the only ones who really benefit are those near the top.

Brainwashing is one reason. That term is thrown around a lot when it comes to religion, but it's especially true in the case of JW's. All negative publicity is nothing but apostate lies, and they'll hold to the excuse that it's a perfect organization run by imperfect men if anything is wrong with the doctrine (which makes no fucking sense).

God and the Watchtower organization are basically synonymous in a JW's mind, and separating one from the other is a bitch to do.

yeah...I hear there's a set number of people who can be saved but you don't know if you're one of them, but you need to buy the pamphlets and then give them away for free hoping to convert people.

The literature is free to take and distribute.

As for salvation, witnesses hold that everyone affiliated with Watchtower will be saved, but only 144,000 will go to Heaven. The rest get to live on a paradise Earth and pet pandas for eternity.

Ah, seems a little more reasonable, I guess.

I was raised Muslim and it was easier to live and leave as agnostic than OP is describing

Yep. Organization's a straight-up cult.

Are you planning on "coming out" so to speak? I imagine when you're financially independent but you can't keep up the ruse forever.

I suppose shunning is easier (and less illegal) than killing apostates

I'll likely come out by the end of the year, assuming all goes as planned. While I probably won't wake my mother up from her indoctrination at that point, I will have given her some things to think about regarding her loyalties.

Is it true that if you demonstrate knowledge of the Gospels to those door-knockers, you get put on a "never visit this address again" list?

Not OP but grew up a JW.
Only get removed if you ask to be removed. It's that simple really.

It's not that bad. At first it all seems big and crazy but you sound young. After a few years you'll realize it ain't that bad by any means and your family will still love you. I even hang out with some of my old JW friends from time to time and they always says hi. Sometimes they come round for a catch up and go on their way.

You'll find the attitude and confidence they try to give you (to preach and respect authority etc) will help a lot later in life as well.

Im not saying it's all good, but it sure is not all bad either. It's also better to be open about it. Like the elder who used to take me on (he still sees me every few months) they firmly believe you cannot slave for 2 masters and would rather you go your own way than try appease both.

Its probably the last thing you want to do, but just tell an elder of the congregation that you trust and he will more than likely understand and help you out. You might have a bitter mother but she will be reminded not to be angry or bitter towards you etc.

In short, hang in there but better to be honest about it all.

I foundnd 99% of them are normal, although some are a little off...

They arent retarded, they will try help a repenting person but if it's clear they refuse to help themselves they'll just say "feel free to come to meetings but you will not progress from there until you can sort yourself out". Pretty common. No real need to game any system, they have no power over anyone contrary to popular belief.

This does not matter, it only matters if you have a blood transfusion during your time as a Jehovah's Witness.

It's not really a shunning, its more of keep a friendly demeanor and just associate less with the person. JW's treat everyone in the congregation as a close friend, outside of that they treat you like a normal person. This is "shunning".

Our experiences are markedly different. I know parents who've kicked children out of their home because they didn't want to toe the line and play by Watchtower's rules.

Are you familiar with the videos they showed at the district conventions this year, namely the one where a woman is disfellowshipped and shunned by her parents for 15 years? They refused to even answer her phone calls.

Watchtower expects its adherents to follow that example with regards to people who get booted out the old fashioned way, or those decide to leave themselves.

Were you ever baptized by any chance?

See that sort of stuff doesn't happen here. I hear people talk about it all the time but have never seen or heard it before.

No I have not gone to a meeting or convention for about 5 years now. When I left the focus was about jobs and education and finding a balance.

No I was not baptized, where I am nobody pushes you to baptize since its something you must be fully committed to. I have seen baptized members become disfellowshipped however.

Has there been a push recently or something in that area?

For all the hype I was lead to believe my mates and I leaving once we were of age was easy. Even for the baptized ones (one of whom still lives with his parents).

Did you get baptized then?

Unfortunately, yes. Baptized as a minor. One isn't formally considered a witness until baptism.

youtube.com/watch?v=qxDAY5lVwuI

This video is currently being played at witness conventions worldwide. Recruitment and retention for the organization is on the decline, so they're doubling down on the crazy to keep their diehard followers in.

What a baptized witness experiences whilst trying to leave is quite different from what an unbaptized person does.

I see. It's generally frowned upon for somebody too young to baptize themselves. Most people here got baptized in their early 20s. I think the youngest I ever saw was 14.

I will watch the vid when I get home. When I left the numbers of Witnesses continually grew.

I get baptized members have a harder time but like I said even baptized people seemed to come and go just fine.

Cheers for the vid. Good luck dude, but honestly it will be better for all if you just open up about it. Otherwise you have to preach every weekend, to talks, put on a second face at least 3 times a week. Ultimately, whats the worst your mum can do? Especially when your dad isn't one of them.

I tell you what, putting up with a visit every so often, the occasional awake and watch tower is far better than being involved. But I don't know your situation.

Again good luck. Pity they let you get baptized, makes it worse.

1 more thing that always amazes me... is your congregation majority women? Here it seems most JWs are women, many who go without husbands.

Just curious.

Statistically speaking, JW women outnumber men 2:1. A lot of them end up as spinsters as a result.

Friends and family made baptism seem like such a good idea when I was 13, but it can't be changed now so I won't piss and moan about it. Like I said, I'm getting out one way or another by the end of the year (could try going inactive, and failing that I'm either disassociating or getting DF'd for apostasy).

You're not trapped. If it means you must strike out on your own, so be it. There are many of US out here.

Yahweh (YHWH) vs. Jehovah
>we acknowledge the tetragrammaton pronunciation, but stick to using the name Jehovah cause it's more widely known (so they claim)
Correct. Sort of. See Appendix A4 to The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (3rd Ed. 2013) (NWT)

>Are the pamphlets just a pyramid scheme?
No.
Witnesses are "publishers" and literature is provided free of change, supported by donations from Witnesses and those who receive literature. Witnesses are prohibited from soliciting these donations. They stopped "selling" literature in the 1980s.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society owns its own presses and translation software. They publish in over 100 languages. Unit cost is very inexpensive.
(200,000,000 NWT Bibles since 1960s. The book "The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life" (1968) 100,000,000 copies.)

Do the President of the organization and other senior members make good money? Yes, of course.

>pay for literature
No. see above and
>set number saved
/this
The 144,000 from Revelation

>revealed a lot of backpeddling and fucky doctrine
Let us not forget than Pastor Charles Taze Russell was a Zionist

yes user, the only options are Jehovahs Witnesses and Atheism. Those are the only two options.

Don't fall down the "religion to replace the religious void" rabbit hole user.
If you saw though JW on your own then you'll see through the rest. I'm speaking as an ex-Mormon.

I once told the JW's at my door that I had started reading the bible (raised without any religion). I expected them to pounce on that like crazy, but they just gave me 2 pamphlets and never came back.

JW's are still around? I thought they died out after 2000s.

youtube.com/watch?v=HM4hOusHrNM
RIP Sparlock, Jew spellsword and trash explorer

Declare yourself for Christ Jesus personally, take the shunning, and live your life on fire for the gospel.

Jesus is the Commander of the Heavenly Hosts; He does not appreciate cowards in His army any more than any other commander.

They don't want you reading the bible-they want you reading their bible.

How do you view Roman Catholics?

They should have died out when there were 144,001 of them.

Logically speaking, of course.

One of the first things they bring up whenever "false religion" is how bad the Catholics are. Be it child abuse, the crusades, or the Vatican. JW's love to jump on Catholics even though they aren't any better.

Personally, I don't have any issue with Catholics, though I have no intention of diving into any religion after I leave this one. I'm a humanist at this point.

When you're raised in a faith who's primary mission is to convert others, you tend to see through just about any doctrine thrown at you (ironically, that leads to a bunch of people waking up from their indoctrination). Are Mormons trained to poke holes in other people's beliefs like JW's are?

Growth has stagnated considerably in the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised if there were an outright decline in witness numbers by 2018.

And a freemason.

>that vid

you guys are nuts

Hm, I guess how did you ever reconcile Smith's use of Agrippan planetary seals with what I imagine to be a doctrine that discourages sorcery?

Same deal with minor Freemasonic elements in the church. Actually I understand that more than an acceptance of Smith's use of ritual magic.

>minors can make binding contracts

"We're not a cult guys, honest!"

>I'm a humanist at this point.
Lel.

This
Matthew 10:34-36
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household"

>They don't want you reading the bible-they want you reading their bible
Not exactly. It's more than that. They discourage independent examination of Scripture. They usually issue a book each year which provides material for detailed directed Bible Studies which support their position. Examples are Books about Revelation, Daniel, and "The Truth Book" (see above); which were published in the 1960s and used to support the predicted date of 1975 for Armageddon.

You are usually spot on with your posts, but this time I think you fell into the wrong thread (see ) Smith was the Mormon guy, not the Jehovah's Witness guy.
Pastor Russell was a Zionist Freemason whose original predictions for Armahedfon in 1914 didn't quite pan out. Any freemasonry elements Pastor Russel may have incorporated in the original "Bible Students" had fallen away by the early 20th Century.

Mormon dude here.
It was more so about patching up the holes in the Mormon faith to be completely honest though. There's just so much contradictory evidence that you basically put yourself through mental gymnastics and shout LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

You're trained to be a good person though, but it turns into half facade half genuine.

Oooh I misread. Yeah, to convert people that's how I was taught.

I was raised Mormon and was in the same situation, I ended up having to just put my foot down and I left with my fiancé. They tried to blackmail me into going on a 2 year mission and tried to send my fiancé away from me. We were irreligious for awhile but eventually through study joined a Traditionalist Catholic parish, we couldn't be happier. Don't give up hope user.

Interesting, in Mormonism the Catholic Church is referred to as "The Great Whore of the Earth" in the Book of Mormon and is blamed for "corrupting" Christianity. Funny I went from Mormon to Catholic. I sometimes wonder if this is real life.

In the 1960s, when trying the justify a 1975 date for Armageddon, the Jehovah's Witnesses used the Whore of Babylon imagery alongside the United Nations.

t. OP's mother

Armageddon is coming.
Note the names on the heads on the Beast
> From "'Babylon The Great Has Fallen!' God's Kingdom Rules!" (1963 - Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)

>tfw no babylon qt older lady into swanky sinning

Holy fuck, lel, I didn't even notice.
All these modern fringe Christian sects sorta blur together in my head. Pardon my retardation.

I'm still curious about my questions, tho. And thanks for the heads up about Blue Students, that's going to be fun research.

Im a catholic and I used to work with a guy from Ghana who was JW. He was awesome and i miss him. Got drunk a few times together too

The above picture () accompanies Revelation 13. The Whore of Babylon doesn't show up until Rev 17. (See above which is from the same book (1963))

>tfw no babylon qt older lady into swanky sinning
Pic is just for you.
>pic from "Revelation. It Grand Climax At Hand!" (1988)

>The Whore of Babylon doesn't show up until Rev 17
Try Rev 12:1, at least that's my understanding of the trajectory of the visions.

Have another qt Babalon.

Yes, you are right (as usual). It get so damn confusing. In Rev 12 she's hanging out with the Dragon, not the other Beast. This is why people write 300 page books trying to sort it out and keep Armageddon understandable for the common man. (the sarcasm oozeth forth)

lol they had to make her ugly to try to make her seem evil

They have to make everything that's "worldly" ugly to make it seem evil.

I understand why they wouldn't want to tempt people to sin but that's just bad symbolism. Worldliness is supposed to be sensual and beguiling.

what's that even supposed to represent?
7 deadly sins?

wow real ex JWs for once that know their stuff. Current JW here well not baptized yet.

Understanding the Revelation of Jesus Christ requires the understanding of everything that went before it as well. And while the symbolism can be confusing, as "beast" is sometimes a man, and sometimes a kingdom, the bible explains what the symbol is each and every time.

The Harlot, the Whore of Babylon, is described most particularly as a city that rules over the kings of the earth and sets upon seven hills, drunken on the blood of the saints and the prophets, sitting as a queen but no widow.

The City that sets upon seven hills that was ruling over the kings of the earth, and is drunken on the blood of the saints, is Rome.

something I've noticed is a lot of the JW girls are huge sluts like goddamn.

Also elders and pioneers kids are the worst.

I know your feeling bro.
A friend of mine in Italy was in the same situation as you, with elders controlling him in a really annoying way.
he maaged to escape by finding a job in another city, and this is what I can advice you to do.
be strong m8

Just how bad they want you to think the world is outside their JW bubble.

Been arming myself with as much information as possible, be it policy or WT's batshit history.

My advise is to avoid baptism at all costs, cause they don't own you till they dunk you.

There's a ridiculous number of gorgeous, thirsty sisters within the organization. Alas, my congregation is filled with nothing but old ladies.

That's one path I may take, uproot myself as best as possible.

And thanks.

dude literally transfer to another congregation. then save up enough money/move out then cut contact

I think a Jehova Witness thread is nice.

When are jehovah's witnesses going to make the top directors make as much money as an average witness? I think it would improve the organisation enormously.

m8 everything is founded on donations. even the ones that go to bethal/traveling overseer/ missionaries have to take an oath of poverty.

This already is so more or less? What I heard is that they make really top incomes. So, not to talk negatively, but it creates a picture of a few people that regulate all Jehova Witnesses. And in the %&$#(^ way too.

I'm sure you don't know what the %&$#(^ way is.
I don't mean to be right or left especially by saying this.

I would have to look where I saw it. It could be reliable. Sometimes this sort of figures are either mandatory. Or people insist without doubt if it is just a little extra piece of information that has to do with nationality.

I love how the parents are the victims for shunning their daughter

>When are Jehovah's Witnesses going to make the top directors make as much money as an average witness?
>What I heard is that they make really top incomes

The "Governing Body" are executives, like any other corporation or many religions. They may make very good salaries and probably live in relative comfort, but they are not becoming filthy rich. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society isn't a huge for profit publishing house. It isn't some pyramid scheme, since all literature is distributed on a for donation basis. It is unlikely that they would take vows of poverty.

Consider the Catholic Church. Bishops and Cardinals take on the privileges and accoutrements of rank. They live in relative comfort but the don't become rich.

>everything is founded on donations.
/this and
>ones that go to bethal/traveling overseer/ missionaries have to take an oath of poverty.
/this
Again, Consider the Catholic Church, missionaries, monks, and others take vows of poverty because of their conviction in that way of life
Consider the Mormons. Missions for young people are paid for by the donations of their family, friends and their local church.

And again
>everything is founded on donations.
The "Society", the corporate arms of the Jehovah's Witnesses were in much better financial shape when they charged a set price for literature prior to February 1990. A religious tax exemption lawsuit was brought by the Jimmy Swaggart Ministries and The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society lost. They had a choice. Become a for profit publishing house and pay taxes or go donation only and retain their tax exempt status. They chose the latter.

>The Roman Catholic Church
They believe they are apostates
((noun) a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle)
They believe that all CHRISTIAN religions are apostates in that they have renounced the true teachings of the Bible and of Jesus. Some specifics:

- Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity. They reject the Nicaean Creed utterly.
- Christians have in general rejected the use of the Tetragramaton (YHWH - Jehovah) as the personal name of God. It appears over 6,800 in the Hebrew Scriptures and they translate it as Jehovah. Their reasoning is found in Appendix A4 to the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" (3rd Ed. 2015)
- Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary and to The Saints for intercession with God for help. The only intercessory to God (YHWH - Jehovah) is Jesus.
- Christians venerate (and pray to OR use as part of their iconography) the Cross. This is idol worship. There also believe the Crucifixion was on a Torture Stake and not the Cross.
- Jehovah's witnesses only celebrate Communion (Memorial) once a year. This is held on the night of Passover (Nisan 14) and only those of the "144,000" (from Revelation) partake. It really is an awkward event.
- No Christmas. Only the Death and Resurrection of Jesus should be celebrated.
- No Birthdays or Holidays.
- They don't vote
- The don't serve in the military

AND YES:
>The Roman Catholic Church representing the Whore of Babylon.
The Best Quote I can find in recent doctrine is:
>A similar situation arises with regard to false religion. The Bible teaches that such worship is contaminated with unclean teachings and practices. (2 Corinthians 6:17) That is why it is important for you to get out of “Babylon the Great,” the world empire of false religion. (Revelation 18:2, 4)
- What Does The Bible Really Teach? (2008) Watchtower Bible and Tract Society

>pic Watchtower Magazine (19890415 (cover))

I think it can't. Masses of Jehovah's Witnesses that don't see this. And don't do anything about it. Your answer is typical in such a case.

It is a typical %&$#(^ bussiness. What difference is there with the Catholic church if the Jehovah's Witnesses go about being a church under this type of system? And in this brute way? The Catholic church is actually nicer if it comes to %&$#(^. But it misses this important community factor. This sort of thing.

%&$#(^ is being discouraged for Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't think they "may" (How endlessly brute) even think too much in that direction. But the managers do nothing but... So the whole thing is their big %&$#(^. In a more thought out way then you may know. (What I know is not hard to find anyway. To anyone)

Only if this governing body makes as much money as an average Witness, this is a sign something is progressed or at least newer, more modern than the Catholic church. Why not demand this with great force? And that things aren't demotivated and dysfunctional afterwards. Basically, some embetterment will foll

low, not as it is now, if this is the case. And if it is really about ideals and using understanding and what is true and works well.

All these jehovah's Witnesses that don't see this! How shocking. Much better as any advantage the Jehovah's Witnesses can ever have above the Catholic church: reform the Catholic Church in a number of ways. But the fact that this is true was used by people to start whole new things that filters out any advantage. I don't mean to be so moderate to say that staying with this basic thing all the time is all that can, may or is even best.

(OP)
In %&$#(^ they are interested in deals. So what if you talk a lot about this sort of thing in your church in combination with a deal of not shunning? They're not dumb so they can decide not to deal, also typically, or most typically %&$#(^.

So in any way leaving with a big rightly bang. (This could mean thinking this over carefully). And letting know if it becomes something.

STOP COMING TO MY DOOR

(Me)
>moderate
Error: I mean UNmoderate here.

(Me)
>%&$#(^
>Doing so intelligently
>Really business-like interests, money, own land, so church in this case. And what is the real difference with other lands, churches and also opposing the way Jehovah's Witnesses do?

Guaranteed, not far for a sure reservation to hell. I mean look at all the people that were shown this? Yes God did and does maintain some sort of sure foundation that his existence is real.

I think it is a good thing that by adding this post I too am being %&$#(^. (May not immediately be understandable why). But double crossing matters in some ways is your sure and certain way for hell. God does leave things up to humans. Amazing trust God has in us, sayable in a way.

Warning: a lot, all the things they talk about in that sort of cases are no reason for hell on itself unless there is this extra reason that makes it understandable. See the great commandment.

I just leave my tremendous volume of empty booze bottles on the porch. They stopped coming.

(Me)

Yes I think I must absolutely campaign hell hard in saying this sort of thing. I mean how else is the real business protected %&$#(^ -y wise?

heavenvisit.com/

Warning2 End times: nothing to be depressed about. Too long story.

Gee, and just thinking logically, that sort of things.

(Me)
Where are other Jehovah's Witnesses that are thinking of leaving or that are just open? I'm interested in this sort of thing. To continue the conversation about it.

Just a bump and a reminder that you are free to choose.

>pic Watchtower 2009 0801

>Jehova's witness at my door
>make the mistake and talk to them
>they ask if I believe in god
>I say no
>they try to explain why I am wrong
>I tell them I have read the scriptures but do not believe
>they ask what I do believe
>I say I don't believe in anything
>not athesit
>nothing
>they have been back 3 times
>they remember my name
>still trying to save my soul
>mfw

>Where are other Jehovah's Witnesses that are thinking of leaving or that are just open? I'm interested in this sort of thing. To continue the conversation about it.

Please restate your position(s) and comments coherently and pose your full formed inquiries and I am sure you will find people willing to discuss whatever it is you are talking about.

Thank you and have a blessed day

So what are the differences between the JWs and Christians, besides JWs not believing in the Trinity?

>child abuse

I have personal experience with this. My city is a minority shithole, with the two largest religious factions being Methodist and Jehovah. My friend was raised by Jehovah parents and raped by her stepfather hundreds of times in middle school. Her mother knew and didn't do shit. The man had convinced his wife that she was "chemically unbalanced" because she had emotions or some shit (similar to the whole "woman is the devil 666" idea a cult my grandfather subscribed to used to spout). Their new son was spoiled rotten while their daughter had old ratty oversized clothes to prevent boys from looking at her (which only invited bullying, which the parents didn't care about). She wasn't allowed to close her bedroom door until her stepfather was arrested. The parents' belief was that the children had to always stay together and essentially raise each other, and allowed their son to run in and out of their daughter's room with ni repercussions. Denying privacy and forcing constant mental overstimulation is not a way to raise a healthy child. When my friend finally told her church, they acted sympathetic for a short time before going right back to their "subservient woman" doctrine (if that's their belief then okay but they didn't express it tactfully in the presence of a traumatized child).

While I get that Jehovahs aren't quite the devil, and this was a matter of the weakness in the minds of the parents, the religion played an integral part in this abuse. I can't fathom why Jehovahism is so popular in my city. It took me going to a Christian school in a nice town to learn that it's actually recognized as a fucking cult. After all this bullshit, I'll never be able to equate Jehovahs with anything else. Even now, my friend's mother has gone off the deep end with her religion. She's pulling her son out of school to homeschool him "God's way". I really think he's going to become a rapist or murderer when he gets old enough to seek out other people.

>hitler in the back
My fucking sides holy shit. He looks like he's having a grand old time.