As demographic projections stand, many countries in europe will have either a very big muslim minority in a couple generations.
How will this change Europe if at all? How will this change the muslim world? Will Some european countries become muslim centers of power due to better infrastructure education etc?
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It will either make Europe a shittier, more unstable place (likely) or it will be a stepping stone in the process of secularizing Islam (unlikely).
Depending on the outcome, the Muslim world either stays the same, or erupts in even more violence over changes to Islam.
I doubt Muslims will have any real power in Europe, though.
A lot will turn atheists. Somewhere along the way the hardliners will force them to turn back, and this will lead into a civil unrest or something like that.
Expect a lot of converts or a revival of religiosity to counteract its influence. Or both.
Either
>Europoors become minorities in their own countries, muslims get elected and set up islamic policies in government, leftists rejoice as the continent collapses both socially and economically
Or
>The following generations secularize and have less children (back to square one with the low birth rates but at least Western culture will continue)
In France, the tendency of children and grand children of immigrants from Muslim countries is to become more religious than their parents.
It's also true for Africans from Christian countries, except that they turn to evangelical churches instead of radical Islam.
this, the center is disappearing
>children of muslims are either secular or salafis (legit I know a muslim chick who is completely westernized while her brother is a salafi who looks down when he passes by women)
>children of moderate left parents are turning into extreme leftards
>children of somewhat nationalist parents are on /pol/
I feel like it's the opposite in America. Many of the children of Muslim immigrants over here seem integrated and focused on the material rather than the eternal.
I'm not saying it's good, just that it's All-American.
On the contrary I think more people are worried about extremists, of any ilk, than at any point in history. Everyone is arguing online, having their more extreme ideas refuted, and the media publicizes only the worst things happening, so that we all get a sense that things are getting worse, but they are in fact getting better.
A lot of folks are on mount stupid right now, on social media, but their parents were to the left of mount stupid, less likely to opine, but also less informed.
Maybe the next gen. will be to the right of mount stupid, as they get to read their parents idiotic thoughts online.
Well Muslims are practically retarded with all the interbreeding going on so its probably not gonna be good for Europe over all.
Tbh I never understood why people think one could either be a Western Liberal or a Taliban like Lunatic
I am not even talking about Muslims, The GOP party is literally called a Christian Taliban for Wanting to restrict abortion(not even ban it)
well maybe it's cuz 1st generation immigrants are more kept to themselves so we don't hear their opinions
well the girl I'm talking about doesn't wear Hijab and is even pro gay marriage
but yeah probably generalized too much out of it
So they're both following the lifestyle that's more benefitting to their own sex? Interesting.
I think it has more to do with having a sense of identity and community than an outlook on life and death.
Come on, those people are basically rootless in Europe.
The Muslims in America are too few and most of them are Westernized already before they bought tickets for the trip. They are forced to assimilate. These conditions are not present in Europe
>getting better
>extremist actions are occuring more rapidly in increasingly unlikelier places
Personal anecdotes when living far from the stress fractures does not reflect overall mood.
>A lot will turn atheists
Reason needed. There's no reason to assume that. They kept their faith for 3 generations in much smaller numbers and less opportunities to segregate and even radicalized during that period. There's no reason to assume that they will apostacize when they have the opportunity to live in larger and large Muslim communities segregated from the rest of the population.
>I think it has more to do with having a sense of identity and community than an outlook on life and death.
>Come on, those people are basically rootless in Europe.
Rootless what is that buzzword supposed to mean. Rootless people tend to integrate into other societies. Muslims don't, a sense of community can be one of the reasons for that. But the values of their religous preachers, in whose eyes western society can not regarded as anything than morally corrupt might play a little role, too. Probably a bigger one. Don't you think?
The vast majority of smug intellectuals has no idea how much apart our value systems drifted during the last decades, with the increasing progressiveness of the west. They refuse to listen to popular Imans on youtube and create their own happy go luck head canon. There's simply no common ground anymore between both cultures.
Just look at the fucking fall of Rome, they started allowing in savages BY THE FUCKING DOZEN and pandering to their every fucking will, and then they fucking COLLAPSED
Yet lefties will still allow in millions of muslim sandniggers, and suck their fucking cocks whenever they get the fucking chance
Well first off all, projecting demographics 2 generations out is a fool's errand. Trends simply don't last that long.
But to answer the question, I expect European Muslims to secularize. I think a lot of you don't realize that extremist Islam is a fairly recent phenomenon, born of Cold War politics, and kept going by the hilariously incompetent mismanagement of the Iraq War. Shit like ISIS is not sustainable as a social movement, and gets more unpopular all the time.
This is the kind of shitposting I come here to see
>it has more to do with having a sense of identity and community than an outlook on life and death.
Sure, but one follows the other.
They do it because of >muh roots but they do it in a very real and honest way.
The guys who blow themselves up in Paris don't pretend to believe. Their less violent friends and cousins neither.
I think you all underestimate how much stronger the conditioning in muslim families is compared to the west.
Those were Germanics that could not into civilization. Muslims have a basic grasp on math and literature, at least. They have a much better education and richer culture as well.
Retarded. Absolutely retarded argument. They are culturally on a completely adverse way to the one which they are imigrating in. Your lifestyle is immoral to them.
Something which was never the case for Germanics, they wanted to immigrate and to be Romans. Even 'moderate' Muslims despise the west and look at it as a societaly model inferor to theirs at the very least.
I realize it's recent. Started getting steam in the 60s and kept getting stronger with time. Nothing indicates that it passed a peak or will anytime soon.
Isis is not sustainable ? Militarily perhaps, but culturally is certainly is, as it is the product of similar movements of the past.
Don't you know about the Algerian civil war ? Thousands of people died because of islamism in the 90s, without western intervention, Algerians fled the chaos to Europe, and now their sons are going to fight for Isis.
It is sustainable.
France will go down with /pol/ style race war.
Eastern Europe will do muslocaust
France has a growing reactionary party. If any country will be swallowed up by this, something I honestly find fairly unlikely, it would probably be germany or Sweden.
>Shit like ISIS is not sustainable as a social movement, and gets more unpopular all the time.
ISLAM has sustained itself for centuries and by demographics alone is getting more popular by the day.
While ISIS is an extremist movement, its views are rooted in Islamic tenets. Remember, Islam was very secular before the 50s. Few could have foreseen that anti-colonial/imperialist backlash from Islamic countries would take the form of a religious revival. Even if Muslims secularize in Europe, it won't take much for extremist ideas to surface once socio-political problems are framed as moral failings
>Retarded. Absolutely retarded argument. They are culturally on a completely adverse way to the one which they are imigrating in. Your lifestyle is immoral to them.
You've never met or lived around Muslims. Inb4 you say you have and they're horrible, no, you haven't. They're normal people who go to school, get jobs and watch tv at the end of the day
I am reading Our political nature by Avi Tuschman. So I don't like certain parts of liberalism, but I consider myself to be culturally liberal.
That having said I think Muslims pose a demographic problem because they have more children and do not intermarriage.
It does seem that second, third etc. generations become more westernized. But here someone mentioned that those generations actually become more religious.
Shame the left/right dichotomy turns the discussion into a black and white thing.
You don't get it. For Germany and Sweden the more likely scenario, speaking in "/pol/ terms" is plain "white genocide" with Germans/Swedes becoming minority in their countries and disappearing. France will end up in legit civil war though, because their integration policy simply doesn't work at all. It didn't get muslims on boat and it didn't fool the French. Those "new French" and normal French live almost completely alienated from each other and the tensions are growing.
The Problem is what people defy as Secular
Secular used to mean that you don't attack people of other beliefs or no beliefs, Not that you don't take your religion seriously at all
Many Westerners seem to believe that if you Don't have Sex before marriage and listen to Lil Wayne then you are a Talibani
I have 4 muslim friends you fucking retard and I live between two mosques. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Muslims are people* and there's a spectrum, yet Islam's doctrin is far right of the Westboro Baptist church and all my friends share strong traits of homophobia and antisemitism.
I dare you to listen to popular Imams on youtube and see what they have to tell you, but no you read the huffington post, that's enough education for you. Don't let facts get into the way of your mainstream happy go lucky stance.
*same can be said for people living under po pott or mao or stalin or hitler
I believe that if you pressure your daughter to wear a hijab you are non secular.
Isis has had massive problems with infighting and problems within its different factions. There have been multiple internal purges and whole brigades have rebelled against the regional leadership. Isis is neither political, economical or culturally lasting
The reason I say it isn't sustainable is because of how much it directly hurts the Muslim world itself. If you actually look at polling, extremists are much more unpopular in the Muslim world than they were even 5 years ago.
Muslim populations in China or Russia never seculiarized . 3 generations in and Muslims haven't integrated one bit into European societies.
I really wonder if this is not pure wishful thinking.
Also extremist Islam in form of IS might be new, the underlying concepts are not. ISIS is basically behaving like the prophet mohammed, slaying the infidels and taking their women as wives or slaves.
Secularization is the exception to the rule, as it only really has occurred in the western world (when it's not forced, like in communist countries). The key seems to be economic development, and there haven't been a whole lot of economically prosperous muslim communities (save for the gulf states, but their economic development is entirely separate from the societies)
>Muslim populations in China or Russia never seculiarized
These populations use their religion for nationalism, so that's a bad example. Uighurs in China and Chechens are repressed by their respective governments, we all know this. To fight this repression, they turn to their religion.
Except the media takes sides and only criticizes extremism of the oposite side, duh.
>Secularization is the exception to the rule, as it only really has occurred in the western world
Wow wow...Veeky Forums making smug factually wrong statements again to push absolute statements with no basis. What the fuck is all of East Asia (minus the Muslim areas KEK) if not seculiarized.
Look at Saudi Arabia, there's much much more to it than economic development. You cannot just take a one case example abstract it and declare it a rule, that shit stopped being scientific in the late 18th century or so.
Yeah, or the reason why they have such a strong identity of being seperate is also because their culture is largely determined by their religous believes. Segregation of non believers in society is an islamic virtue after all.
>east Asia
>not basically the western world
10/10 completely missing the point of my post
>ISIS is basically behaving like the prophet mohammed, slaying the infidels and taking their women as wives or slaves.
That's not really true, but it wouldn't matter if it was, since it's still clearly the exceptional case. Much like Christians don't try to live like Jesus.
You guys are thinking in extremes and generalize too much.
That saud nothing will change and everything will stay the same maybe businesses will cater to muslims but that's it.
>ISIS is basically behaving like the prophet mohammed
So Muhammad killed his own followers during Ramadan?
>Looks down when he passes women
Sounds like one of us! p-pls respond
>Eastern Europe will do muslocaust
genocide the western muslims, or their own?
If the latter, that's retarded, eastern euro muslims are varying degree of "native", and are chill as fuck.
Honestly? Not very much
ISIS is starting to seriously alienate the general Islamic European populous. 2nd generation Islamic kids who'll be growing up in Europe are going to be far more secular than their refugee parents.
The biggest threat facing Europe right now is further tribalism. There are certainly going to be some violent cultural clashes, but hopefully they won't amount to much.
>But here someone mentioned that those generations actually become more religious.
That's really only because of the current conflicts in the middle east. Of course economic and social breakdowns lead to conservative practice, that's what always happens.
>Shame the left/right dichotomy turns the discussion into a black and white thing.
Now this I agree with. The far bigger issue (imo) right now is the west's own radicalization, what the fuck happened to political moderates?
>having their extreme ideas refuted
For many Sunni Shias are heretics and vice versa, so technically in their eyes they are not killing muslims. You really got a lot to learn.
turks are sunni...
No, East Asia is not the western world. What a retarded statement.
>2nd generation Islamic kids who'll be growing up in Europe are going to be far more secular than their refugee parents.
Statistics show the oposite.
So? Is their a scripture in Hadith or Quran that says you are not allowed to kill Muslims under any circumstances?
Al Bagdadhi had a professor's degree in islamic studies and he didn't think it was against islam to punish muslims for making wrong decisions, but what does he know, right.
>everything will stay the same
Lel
The least that will happen is a furtner decline in social cohesion (can muzzies into democracy as euros do?)as it already happened, an end to most gay and tranny bullshit along with european culture as it is transmitted from natives to their offspring getting even scarcer.
...
>Statistics show the oposite.
Did you even read my post?
That's the current trend, because it's still fucked in the middle east, because immigrants are being treated as hostiles, because families are being torn apart, and because islam (as well as the western world) is having an existential crisis.
Once these stabilize the population will secularize.
And no, I don't know how they're going to stabilize. I do know that simply ignoring, turning away, or prosecuting the immigrants won't amount to much other than senseless violence.
I misunderstood you, my bad. I agree that if shit hits the fan France will once again be fiercly divided.
Why doesn't Europe do the right thing and only allow Christian immigrants? Force all muslims currently living there to pay a 50% tax or something
>Force all muslims currently living there to pay a 50% tax or something
>forcing a poor population to pay high taxes
>giving them another reason to hate the government
>given them another reason to radicalize
What would you even accomplish
>Of course economic and social breakdowns lead to conservative practice, that's what always happens.
Another book I read on sociology did mention this yea.
What you call moderate I would call political realism. Maybe it is because of media and internet exposure, I dunno, but it seems that on issues you have to completely disagree with it or completely agree. The middle ground seems to be lost, and a middle ground does not have to be 50/50 it can be 70/30 (if you understand what I mean with this).
The book I am reading which I mentioned in the post you replied to says that both far left and far right politics dominiate with the poor people.
Maybe it is the increasing inequality that causes the political moderate to disappear?
Also for those interested check out Peter Turchin, a historian. He is saying that inequality eroses cooperation.
They'd rebel and thus give the government an excuse to put them down and thus discourage further immigration. Also you'd get some cash, that's always good.
Again I'll admit being more a liberal. So the stereotypical liberal would say that it is discrimination to favor Christian immigrants.
But I think because of asymmetry it can be a good idea. I think that Christians, other religious miinorities, atheists, and homosexuals within countries in which they are a minority (this case Islamic) and in which they are marginalized should have priority. (sort of assuming such policies are not already in place)
But taxing and full exclusion (instead of partial) I would not support. It could cause social unrest with the Muslims immigrants already living.
>The book I am reading which I mentioned in the post you replied to says that both far left and far right politics dominiate with the poor people.
>Maybe it is the increasing inequality that causes the political moderate to disappear?
Possibly. I think radicalization largely stems from inequality and alienation. If you look at /pol/ and the worst of the SJW, they both consist of people who, for a myriad of reasons, feel isolated, neglected, persecuted, and just generally unwanted by the general populous.
I think once you're at this point of alienation, these more extreme, knee-jerk views are really tempting-- they're on their side and promise to restore [x] and/or take down [y]-- which surely must solve all the issues.
>That's the current trend, because it's still fucked in the middle east, because immigrants are being treated as hostiles
Source needed. Sometimes I feel I was better off to listening to that cuck of crash course history. Veeky Forums is a board of narrative not of science.
>using abuse to bait violence so you can justify eradication
These are human beings, dude.
It also wouldn't solve anything, because any sensible person would view that kind rebellion as more-or-less reasonable. It would just make the country a bigger target for Islamic radicals
Good point. I do not know enough about /pol/ since I have no clue who is behind the screen.
But SJWs aren't exactly poor now are they?
i dont see how certain european countries wont become muslim. the immigration isnt going to stop and any argument for stopping it is dismissed as racism or some shitty white man's burder argument
>As demographic projections stand, many countries in europe will have either a very big muslim minority in a couple generations.
This factually isn't true though.
Care to expand?
I thought Muslims have more children and rarely intermarry.
These people are barely human. They throw rocks at gay people and hang those who leave their cult
Not him but define "very big". Muslims will never make up +20% of Europe's population.
I assume you don't need a source for how miserable the middle east is
But here are some pretty good articles on how fucked the current refugee crisis is.
theguardian.com
>inb4 >guardian
Yeah It's a shitty magazine, but this is a decent article. You could also just read the report on the general human rights violations going on right now
semantic-pace.net/tools/pdf.aspx?doc=aHR0cDovL2Fzc2VtYmx5LmNvZS5pbnQvbncveG1sL1hSZWYvWDJILURXLWV4dHIuYXNwP2ZpbGVpZD0yMjYxMiZsYW5nPUVO&xsl=aHR0cDovL3NlbWFudGljcGFjZS5uZXQvWHNsdC9QZGYvWFJlZi1XRC1BVC1YTUwyUERGLnhzbA==&xsltparams=ZmlsZWlkPTIyNjEy
Another good article on the immigration failure:
foreignaffairs.com
The immigrants are scary for Europe because they're the potential future of Islam in Europe. Sending them back to their war-torn countries or violating their human rights is only going to radicalize them.
>But SJWs aren't exactly poor now are they?
A lot aren't no, which is why I think alienation is an important factor of radicalization.
they dont need to make up 20% in order to have an influence. black people in america make up 13% and yet they're considered key for winning an election.
You have no idea what you're talking about. You're just swallowing regressive left talking points. I have a muslim aunt and cousins, and they go on and on about how immoral the west is, how gays are sinners and how sharia will become the law of the land. Even the Muslims that get paraded as moderate still have views that fly in the face of progressive values. Islam is not compatible with a Western lifestyle unless they act like Christians and gradually care less and less about it.
But they will in some countries. Over 10% of English newborns are Muslim and I imagine somewhere around 20% of French babies are.
Blacks are their own thing entirely. I don't think Muslims will be the same. Muslims in Europe will never share the same "brotherhood" type thinking as blacks do.
They hate each other just as much as they would hate natives. Just the other day in the bus I saw two muslims screaming at each other (one was kurdish and the other didn't like kurds).
So you kill off a minority faction of a society and just let the innocent kids and their immigrant parents (who, for some reason, want to escape the shittyness of their homelands) rot in their oppressive hellholes?
That hardly solves anything, user
>20% is not very big
they hate each other now but they might not in the future once they realise how much political power they will have.
They might hate each other but they hate infidels more if itmlcomes to conflict.
If you get away with violence by not feeling guilty in the slightest it can solve your issues. Just look at turkey and their armenian issue or the chinese abd their uighur problem.
Yeah, seems about right. If they flee from the shitholes they created to create new ones where I live, let them remain where they belong.
My point was that 20% was big. Learn to read.
Nah. Either they integrate to western society, or they will keep their current tribalistic attitude towards other muslim sects as well. There is no possibility for an outcome where muslims forget their sects, racial tension etc but yet still stay fanatic muslims.
The reason why muslims don't integrate is because they form small communities, and these commonities are always homogenous by nationality, religion and race.
Refugees are not immigrants can you get your fucking methodology right instead of throwing every together?
Most people coming to Europe do not fit the qualifications of a refugee nor are legally accepted refugees. (Most Syrians are in countries such as Lebanon and Turkey)
They are not immigrants true, but the correct term for them is "migrant". They just come.
>If you get away with violence by not feeling guilty in the slightest it can solve your issues
Yeah but it also makes you a fucking sociopath and human rights violator.
>the shitholes they created
How'd these refugees create their shithole countries, user?
Quads of truth
>Country destroyed because of Islam's constant strife with itself and others
>Better fuck off to Europe and get my free shit
>Hmm, this place is great and all, but the thing is, it's full of disgusting infidels
>I think it'd be great if the infidels were all dead or converted
>Blow shit up and kill innocent people
>Yeah, things are gonna be great
Most """"refugees"""" that come to my country are ex Iraq Ba'ath sunni's. They are fleeing their homecountry because they are afraid of the Shia government established after the invasion of Iraq. The Shia are mad at them because under Hussein the Sunni oppressed the Shia.
So yeah. They are not entirely blameless.
Ok so it is true that next generations will have lesser children as I thought. But I think a lack of intermarriage is a problem.
But of course the people who fear Eurabia (not me by the way) are often also ethniccentric just as Muslims i.e. they do not allow outgroup & ingroup mixing.
We are not talking only about them, but also existing communities, which resisted any integration for generations now. The blame the white man game is getting tiring.
Europe's failure in the refugee policy...no country or continent can be expected to tailor its whole social policies and economic policies arround taking millions and millions of unskilled alien migrants many of who come not because they are persecuted but for financial gains.
They are not integrating simply because they form their own communities in low-income housing areas and the fact that free movement is a thing. It is not at all the "white mans fault". The people who blame the natives of Europe are extremely clueless or just want to shift blame from their own failures.
>How'd these refugees create their shithole countries, user?
Probably by being completely uncritical towards their own radical and extremist elements in society and electing disgusting sharia law, minority persecuting governments such as in lybia when given the chance to.
>a violator
It was merely about your objection that being a violator does not solve the violators issues because the way of doing so is "evil".
Which is simply not true.
Your thinking is a weakness of the west because it made us believe we owe an outgroup fair threatment not out of mercy but out of some transcendent godlike principel.
>They are not integrating simply because they form their own communities in low-income housing areas
Exactly. Their own choice. Low-income housing areas don't become dominated by muslims just because there are so many low income muslims. No, they segregate themselves within these areas.
That actually is my bad
This article is worth a read though.
foreignaffairs.com
This book has also been getting some good buzz, and it's not just some dindu nothin, shit. I haven't read it yet though.
hup.harvard.edu
All the 2nd and 3rd generation muslim immigrants I know are atheists.