Can you give the actual reasoning and evidence of people who say the holocaust happened and those who say it didn't...

A majority of the Jews were killed with bullets.
Something the denier crowd doesn't seem to understand is 6 million is the claimed death of all Jews throughout the war, not just the ones that died in camps.

This post contains so much autism. If you deny the holocaust you are literally and figuratively retarded, and no historian agrees with you.

Those who say it happened do so because of a myriad of actual good evidence.
Those who say it didn't do so because among the good evidence is also plenty of bad, or fake evidence.

Basically we know that the german government had all the undesirable (gay, handicapped, mentally ill) people, and all the "dangerous" (polish, french, jewish, people that the state was at war with) people moved to labor camps, where they were forced to work, practically slave labor.
Keep in mind that during WWI all prisoners of war were forced into slave labor on farms, for example, collecting harvest, repairing roads, and so on. It wasn't entirely unusual.
However, due to the failing german economy and the war going bad, these people weren't fed much, and were worked to death practically, and kept in terrible conditions.
Now you can rationalize that if you can't provide food and warmth and good conditions even for your citizens, of course you won't for your prisoners, but that doesn't change the fact that people died from malnutrition and disease in these labor camps.
When the russians advanced, the german government was worried this will be discovered, and that their last diplomatic options will be gone once the allies learn of it, so they tried to erase the evidence by killing the prisoners. The orders were sent, some were executed, some werent, either because the officers didn't want to do it, or because they had to flee before it was done.

Basically the Holocaust did happen, and it was unwanted and considered dangerous citizens being imprisoned and forced to work, and as the war turned to defeat they were kept in terrible conditions, resulting in deaths, and to cover up these deaths the mass murder was ordered, and partially done.
Thats the good evidence part. Thats what we know and can prove. The rest is people assuming, theory crafting, faking evidence and taking the bait. Thats where you get the internet discussions you are referring to.

read a fucking book
alternatively, visit archives if you really want first hand proofs

loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/NT_Nazi_Vol-III.pdf

PS-197

>Near Kainenez-Podolsk, the Hungarians have pushed about
11,000 Jews over the border. In the negotiations up to the pressent
it has not been possible to arrive at any measures for the
return of these Jews. The higher SS and Police leader (SSObergruppenfuehrer
Jeckeln) hopes, however, to have completed
the liquidation of these Jews by the 1.9.1941.

Not about Germany but i did talk to some of the really old folk here in Romania who lived through the war and they talked about how gypsies and jews got sandbags tied to their feet and thrown off a bridge into the river.

They would clump together later downstream when the river would bend and they were then dragged out like flotsam

Yeah, that's why untermenschen in German custody like Slavs and Jews died at 20 times the rate of English and French in German custody. Because the supply lines magically broke for those millions but not other millions.

No, wait, that's utterly retarded.

Are you retarded? Do you think the holocaust happened in auscwhitch solely? The majority of Jews and other peoples were killed by bullets in the woods

So all those massacres in Eastern Europe, didn't they happen?

Shooting people is nasty work. When you're doing it all day you'll go out of your mind. So gassing was preferable, especially as other slave labour was used move the bodies afterwards.

It must have been unimaginably awful being in the sonderkommando, given that you got stuffed in the gas chamber after some months anyway you were walking dead.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial

Read this shit nigger

>If the Nazis were going to kill the jews, why didnt they just use bullets?

They did, sweetums. Do you think the Holocaust solely means people gassed at death camps?

>They were already using them for labour originally, so why change plans and kill them all?

The majority of straight to the gas chamber victims were children, infants, old people, infirm people, basically anyone who wouldn't provide enough work until they either died from exhaustion, starvation or illness or were weak enough to be sent to the gas chambers themselves. Depending on the camp, women were considered candidates for immediate gassing as well.

Not only that's not true but it's also an ad populum fallacy. Stay mad, shill.

Source on that statement?

Ferguson, Niall (2004), "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History 11 (2), p. 186

And that's a fallacy fallacy.

>implying any non expert can somehoe magically know the truth.
Yeah, sorry pal, most people know almost nothing on most subjects and must trust the mainstream agreed upon oppion on the matter by experts.
Also this is not a logical reasonging issue but a question of material evidence.

No, because I didn't say that what he said was false because of the ad populum fallacy. I said it's false AND that he used such fallacy.

But it's not false.

>no death camps.
I wondr where 750k jews were housed in auwshwitz.
I wondt even mention the fact that all the nazi top ranks talked about killing all the jews.
There are diary entires there are voice recordings and so on..There are even evidence of the people who lived nearby and records of the train and people movements..
Somehow almost a million people were moved by train into a camp and vanished..
Really, what a mystery.

I believe it happened to some extent. There are places in my country where thousands of jews where shot and there are monuments in those places. So I guess those shooting were real unless there is some huge conspiracy I don't know about.
However there is no document found, that Hitler had given any orders about extermination of the jews. There is speculation that he gave orders orally, but there is no proof. I'm reading Hitler's book right now (Mein Kampf), and he had massive hate against jews, no doubt about it. So I guess it could be possible, that he ordered the extermination somehow.
There are arguments about gas chambers though. You can watch videos in youtube, where this is debunked. It is impossible to fit as many people as it is told in the building, where supposed gas chambers were. The stories about these places are contradicting, and some even sound ridiculous. There was also a video where some guy was exploring these places. The doors where weak and they could be easily opened from inside. So it makes no sense to me, that 2000 people would just peacefully enter the place and calmly stay there, as they are being gased, and not try to escape. What I think right now, is that those places were just for showering or something like that, but after war someone transformed the places, so they look like gas chambers.
The number of deaths in concentration camps (Auschwiz and Berkenau also) is decreasing each year, because of new evidence, but the magic number 6 gazillion still remains the same. Holocaust is also protected with law. If you deny it, you can go to jail. How is this fair? I think someone desperately wants everyone to believe holocaust. I think it's suspicious.
You can also watch this video:youtube.com/watch?v=x8OmxI2AYV8.
It's about ex zionist who became christian. This makes me even more suspicious.

>Yeah, sorry pal, most people know almost nothing on most subjects and must trust the mainstream agreed upon oppion on the matter by experts.
If you take their word for granted, what makes you think they didn't do the same? Besides, if historians are shunned for disputing a certain narrative, it's no surprise that mainstream historians embrace the same narrative.
>Also this is not a logical reasonging issue but a question of material evidence.
What material evidence?

This. Shooting people is personal and really, really hurts morale. It's much easier to get your men to round people up and put them on trains - out of sight, out of mind then.

>all that bombing cutting supply lines

So allied bombing cut off supply in 1943 Poland? In 1941 USSR?

You are absolutely retarded.

>prove X didn't happen

Wat.

>"only" 4.7 million Jews died in concentration camps, not the official number of 6 million
>therefore it didn't happen

K.

>Can you give the actual reasoning and evidence of people who say the French Revolution happened and those who say it didn't? Both seem to make a lot of claims but neither seem to provide much evidence.

This is how stupid you sound.

Historians who interpose new narratives based on facts and research are praised and given awards.

If only ISIS knew this

Jews died of starvation in concentration camps.
They died by being shot at in individual and mass shootings. They died in nai occupied territories of russia using gas trucks and mass shootings.
They died on the trains of thirst and cold. They died i death camps, first liquidation of the weak and useless, meaning kids and the sick frail and weak. They were of absolutely no use to the nazis and only took food rations. they were killed and you could not expect soldiers to carry out those orders. meaning soldiers executing such numbers of people by shooting them themselves. It had to be automated and asbtracted so people could actually do these things.
It wasnt JUST about effeciency. Killing such quantities of people was extremely demoralizing for the soldiers especially killing women and children.

>Every other group that committed mass murders in modern times did exactly this
Not true

But he saw some youtube videos discrediting the halacaust, come on..

dead bodies. Personal experience of both prisoners and the nazis.
Hundreds of thousands of documets that were the result of the massive movement and documentation of people. You had to document all the trains, the food, the personal working in camps etc etc etc...This all left a huge paper trail that is avialable. Sorry I cant make a snappy youtube video somehow summerizing them all within a few minutes.

Aslo diary records and recordings of top nazi brass talking about extermination. not just final solution but actual extermination, making it sound like its some divine mission etc..
youtube.com/watch?v=2a_cmbi3iIg

This recording is available on paper(in its full version it was a 3 hour speech) signed off by himmler himself of course.

Full speech is available in writing*

Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, later North Italy and so on were occupied by Germany.
After about the mid point of the war Germany had no actual "allies", only countries they occupied, and all the armies regardless of nationalities were ran by the german high command, and all the governments were practically german puppets.
This can be argued to be glorified conquering by other means, but the simple fact is german command was simply better, more effective, more organized. And I know that Romania and Bulgaria in particular got bridges, dams, all sorts of mail and police logistic systems implemented by the germans during their unofficial occupation, that they couldn't have implemented themselves.
Basically it was Germany taking over all of the Axis assets and manpower, because they thought (and I'd agree) they are the most capable of handling them, and from there all the camps outside of german land, mostly in Bulgaria (modern Macedonia), Romania, Poland.

There were no death camps. There were labor camps, for slave labor from undesirables and prisoners.
Because of bad handling and no resources, people there died from starvation and being worked too hard.
To hide this fact, german command required that all people in the camp be killed. Thats where the mass murder comes, as a way to cover up the slave labor thing, and the starving prisoners to death due to lack of resources thing.

Why in the world would you kill FREE WORKERS? Because thats what they were, free workers, that worked for free. A net gain for the state.
They were only ordered to be killed, and many were indeed killed, when it became clear Germany lost the war, and evidences of these slave camps with terrible conditions had to be erased to improve the odds of a good peace deal, and save face in front of the world.

Why Hitler killed all this polish Jews ? They were literally ultra poor

They killed the children, the old and the frail, and worked the rest to death

And yet, /pol/tards ignore it, when faced with something like source.

To be fair, the Germans took pictures of themselves shooting the Jews into mass graves.

I'm sure if selfies were a thing back then, you'd have tons of them with "Lol! Shotting the Jews!"

Are you aware that Poland was country invaded by Germany not allied in war?

A statement I never made.
I said that Germany's allies were effectively occupied. This doesn't mean all occupied countries were allies.

You mentioned Poland along with allies without distinguishing it and making it sound like Poland was one of them.

I was left with the wrong impression that people in the thread are aware of which countries partook on what sides in the conflict.
Should I also define what war means, what a "Poland" actually is, and other general terms?

You are nitpicking for no reason, lad.

I have never heard of six million being foretold 100yrs before it happened.

Shooting terrorist you mean

/pol/tards btfo

Ok.
This guy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_H._Freedman
He is a jew, used to be zionist but converted to christianity. He is holocaust denier. Don't you smell something fishy there?
I don't deny holocaust 100%, but I think not everything is true about it. Why would a jew deny holocaust then?

One person being wrong about a concept doesn't invalide the concept.

That guy used to be a zionist, so he must know something about the jews, and what they are capable of.
And I don't think he would make so large claims without any proof. It's a genocide of his own race. Would you protest against your own race if you didn't have proof or knowledge?

You are a nazi, yet you apparently don't know anything about what nazis did.
And you are making large claims without any proof

So both are clearly possible to do.

I'm not a nazi, but I'm a nationalist though.
Where am I making claims? I'm just stating a fact, that a jew is denying holocaust. It just gives a food for thought, something to think about, you know?

>It just gives a food for thought, something to think about, you know?

You're right, once you become a zionist you are allowed to tap into the Jewish Hivemind. To stray from it...something grim must be about.

>Don't fall for Jewish tricks.

Why do you make your argument invalid on a purpose?

You are just stating a fact, that some person who's only qualification is his mother's ethnicity, is making wild claims, and you believe him.
That fact implies some things about you and your intellectual capacity.

The gentlemen below said the most of it, I just felt like adding that Germany had no desire to wait around until after the war to implement their ideals on the populace they invaded so they went right into slaughtering who they saw unfit to work for them or anyone that would revolt. Many reports of Wehrmacht just shooting up a village's entire male population even if in Hitler's eyes they had no place in a gas chamber.

If the events regarding the extermination of millions by both Germany and the Soviet Union weren't so horrific, this would be ... no this isn't funny.
Why do we do this? Why is there always an open thread? It's the ultimate bait. We're throwing baby seals to the sharks and Christians to the lions.
is my best recommendation

Further, why are you coming here instead of researching the material yourself? ( / This). Haven't you been lurking these threads long enough? Don't you already know what the higly educated fedora tippers here are going to say?

But don't worry. This thread will die and a new one will pop up will the same old tired (lack of) arguments.

>Shooting people is personal and really, really hurts morale
I would tend to disagree when it comes to ISIS. Religious blood lust is a strong morale booster among the faithful. The average German soldier may not have hated the Jews and/or may have found extrajudicial execution distasteful and not a military necessity. ISIS however gets quite a thrill from beheading the infidel.

>Why Hitler killed all this polish Jews? They were literally ultra poor
Lebensraum. They would have been a burden upon the state. Hitler wanted the land for the Germans, not all of the indigenous population.

>Benjamin H. Freedman ...Why would a jew deny holocaust then?
Read his works. They will explain it better than we can.
>Would you protest against your own race if you didn't have proof or knowledge?
Not an argument

Well. That's enough for now. I'll see you all in our next episode of, "Veeky Forums Veeky Forumsolocaust deniers" (cue applause track - roll end credits)