Is this shit legal?

Is this shit legal?
My manager made me skip my break and work an hour and a half overtime last night then I see this the next morning.

In most cases no - though they are well within rights to discipline/terminate for violating it, they can't retroactively dock you for work you performed or force you to violate another labor law (skipping mandated lunches) to make up for it.

Document your shit with timestamps so you have it if it comes to getting fired and they try to deny an unemployment claim (if you care about filing.)

Find a new job

part time worker here.. my job can never get enough overtime.. i always refuse lol. gotta have time for hobbies

Not legal

they can't not pay you for hours you already worked (that's why it says "from now on")

your manager probably got reamed for going over budget

the only thing they can do is discipline you if you punch out later than they told you to.

>m-muh company loyalty
That's why I don't do a damn extra thing for my wagecuck jobs.
I do what is legally required of me, nothing extra.
>Unless it's to help fellow staff and makes my job easier in the process.
I document everything management tells us.
I'm familiar with the FairWork Ombudsman ands ATO requirements.
I refuse over time, being called in with less than two hours notice or if I have plans for that day, doing work outside the scope of my role, etc.

Fuck 'em.

Assuming you're in the US, time punches are basically the equivalent of binding legal documents. You can come in even when you're not scheduled, punch in, and they'll wind up having to pay you. They need to pay you for every minute you punch the clock, but they can also fire you whenever for it.

And by fire, I mean lawfully fire you. If they tell you to not work OT, and you do, they owe you that money, but they can also fire you for it, and you aren't owed unemployment, it's a clear firing for cause.

>and you aren't owed unemployment
Not entirely true. They have to prove willful misconduct. It would be pretty hard to prove that you knew the overtime you were working was unauthorized.

That's very hard to prove. Like, so hard to prove that most companies will lose badly if unemployment claims adjusters actually fight them.

man, i wish my work would have a no OT rule

or at least give me the option instead of mandatory 6am nonsense

Extremely illegal. Last company I worked for went through a 500k class action law suit over improper and lack of meal breaks.

Oh they also cut people's overtime from their paycheck by editing their hours after before payroll is processed.

no but what are you gonna do about it? find a new job if youre a crybaby bitch

>That's why I don't do a damn extra thing for my wagecuck jobs
sounds like youre going far in life with that work ethic

a giant sign is pretty good proof. not that they need proof

They absolutely need to provide proof. A posted sign is still not proof of willful misconduct. They would need to prove when the sign was posted, wether it was in a location that was visible to all employees, and that the specific employee saw the sign and willfully decided to disobey it. I'm not saying its impossible to prove, just really difficult. You make it seem like everyone who get fired for working overtime they were not authorized to automatically is disqualified for unemployement. This is just not the case by any means.

No, they have to pay for hours worked.

k

>Unnecessary overtime will be automatically removed from your total hours.

I'd be talking to an employment attorney about this. Deliberately break into a little OT, just a little bit, to get yourself some more evidence when they pull anything. Little enough that you can claim plausible deniability.

Seriously. How the fuck can anyone be so fucking stupid they make a POST about violating employment laws. Pic very related. An attorney is going to have to excuse himself for a wank in private after he see's this. You've got a goldmine if you play your cards right. Talk to that lawyer though. He'll tell you what you need to do reliably get the most out of it.

Oh, and don't worry about paying them. Plenty of attorney's will take a case like this on contingency. He'll direct you how to trip them into breaking the law, and then sue them for you. He gets a cut of the winnings, you sit back, pop a few beers, and look for work with a company that isn't run by scumbags.

Call DOL in your state.

If you can show some proof of what is happening, then the DOL will fuck this guy so hard he doesn't walk right again.

As a business owner, I'm sickened by stuff like this.

Turn him into the DOL and let him get fucked.

Also meal breaks vary by state. It's different in California as opposed to Georgia.

USUALLY, you get 30 minutes for an 8 hour shift. Like it is guaranteed. In Georgia and Tennessee that right can be waived for "jobs that by their nature do not permit a break period" which is absolute fuckin bullshit. I only know because I waited tables in Georgia and Tennessee and in both states restaurants are not required to give servers breaks. In one of them I was working for 12 hours without a break.

Slavedrivers need to pay the ultimate price. I'll hold that view to the grave.

Eh, I'd personally contact a lawyer first. He'll know when to take it to the DoL, and get the most out of it for you.

DoL will fuck them. A good lawyer will rape them.

>As a business owner, I'm sickened by stuff like this.

I'll never understand why businesses ever think stuff like this is a good idea. You shouldn't be in business if you can't handle going a bit over budget from time to time, and taking care of your workers when things are good keeps them around when things are bad. Every big project has a few shitty days. Any employee with sense knows this. Some projects aren't breadwinners. That's not the fault of the grunts doing most of the work.

>So and so is an asshole and doesn't like excuses, but he's absolutely fair and will never fuck with you unless you fuck with him first. You can tell him about (x), and he'll either fix it, or tell you why he can't. Just tell him, let him fix it, and don't fuck with him.

That's what you want people to say about their bosses. It saves so much money in the long run when your employees come to you and let you fix problems before they evolve into big ones. Stuff like this just gives employees a good reason to deliberately try to ruin you. The relationship is no longer mutually beneficial, and you lose any leverage you might have had.

The best ethic is something in between. It's important to know that it's foolish to be loyal to a company that can throw you under a bus when they need to without a second thought.

>That smiley face at the end.
This guy's a prick and he fuckin' knows it.

of course it's legal. they can set your hours so that you never work overtime. your manager didn't make you skip my break, you chose to skip your break because you were afraid of getting fired when he told you to skip your break.

no laws broken unless they don't pay you for the hour and a half you already worked. dust off that resume bro

lol my break
your break*

He could be fired for going on overtime, but he will get paid, and get unemployment. Doesn't matter that that's technically firing for cause. DOL doesn't like companies doing that because some shitty manager can force you to stay late and then fire you if you stay, or fire you if you don't do the work. It treads too close to demanding they work without pay, so you will most likely win any unemployment appeal if there isn't an EXTENSIVE record of paperwork showing very consistent hours worked and clearly agreed upon policies.

The poster makes it sound like the company isn't paying people for time worked. That's what is illegal as fuck. That's why OP should talk with a lawyer. Lawyer will probably tell them to call the bluff. If the company actually is stupid enough to dock pay, the legal term describing their situation will be megafucked.

If you are actually stupid enough to risk an unpaid wages claim, don't give them proof of intent before hand. I mean Jesus Christ. It's like this company wants to go bankrupt.

In my experience this is common practice nowadays for many low paying jobs. He's never going to hire a lawyer, and I don't actually think they've done anything illegal based on what OP said. He wants you to think it's illegal because that's the answer he wants, so everything he's saying is trying to paint management in the worst light possible. But he never said they didn't pay him or were not going to pay him for hours he worked, just that he was not allowed to work before 9 or after 11. That's my understanding of his posts at least.

As far as your upside being he gets fired, gets paid overtime, and collects unemployment.......idk bro I don't consider that doing well, but different standards for different situations I guess.

Where are you getting this unpaid wages stuff from?

Did we read the same time? They outright said it would be removed. To be that implies that they will forge time sheets.

> He's never going to hire a lawyer,
His loss if he doesn't. Stuff like this generally works on contingency. Lawyer gets payed if and only if he wins.

>same time

Meant same sign.

I think there's some dangerous advice being given out here, especially without geographical context. What I said in my posts is absolutely true, given the general context of being in the US. Forging time cards is absolutely illegal, your company has to pay you for time you were clocked in for, "authorized" or not, and the Federal Dept of Labor will intervene to make sure this happens, with large civil sanctions if need be. Here's the various problems with the other advice given here, which may or may not be correct given geographics.

1. There is a large probability you won't collect unemployment if you get fired for violating their OT policy. One poster made this sound like the standard of proof was a fucking murder investigation that you need time stamps of a whole series of things, with like notarized witness statements. Unemployment is handled by state level depts. In most states, fact is you don't, they're very pro-business, especially in Southern states. If it's a single layoff and an employer claims it was for cause due to misconduct, that's about it unless you're looking for a long legal fight over it.

2. Be very mindful of doing what your lawyer says if it leaves you unemployed, possibly without unemployment benefits. Your lawyer won't pay you during what may be a protracted lawsuit, you'll need to self fund that time. And good luck finding work while you're a named plaintiff in a worker's lawsuit.

3. Your state laws may be different, but in terms of a personal lawsuit, the only money you'll recover is double the overtime that wasn't paid, plus lawyer fees. So for a few weeks of missed OT you're looking at a few $100, max. That's it, there's no emotional damages or other bullshit in this type of lawsuit, only your lawyer would get paid well (maybe). The company may be liable for huge fines, but that gets paid straight to the DoL and only them.

If you want to succeed in business you HAVE to reward hard work. You can be a tough boss, but if you don't reward hard work then expect to fail.

Look at Costcos employee reward strategy. That companys stock goes up every year like clockwork.

>last night then I see this the next morning.
It clearly says "from now on", how did you even get a job if you can't read?

>Forging time cards is absolutely illegal
Who the hell said anything about forging time cards? Lmfao. I also laughed hard at the "dangerous advice" comment. I don't think anyone is suggesting that OP bill extra overtime hours here. You were the one who brought it up originally and I am just debunking your statement that he won't ever be able to collect unemployment because of it.

>There is a large probability you won't collect unemployment if you get fired for violating their OT policy.
Again, not true. Violating an OT policy is pretty ambiguous. It is hard to get denied unemployment insurance except for anything but blatant misconduct. It doesn't seem like you have any experience at all with this.

>fucking murder investigation
Not at all. If an employer denies the unemployment claim and you appeal it, it gets sent to mediation. It's just a small meeting with lawyers and a mediator present. The whole process is fairly casual. Just like real court, there is a burden of proof, however. The employer (or lawyers) need to provide evidence that there was willful misconduct. Believe it or not, notarized statements from witnesses is actually a thing and can improve the odds of an employer trying to win.

>If it's a single layoff and an employer claims it was for cause due to misconduct, that's about it unless you're looking for a long legal fight over it.
Wrong on many different levels. It is never ever a long legal battle. Unemployement insurance cases literally can not get dragged out since they are decided in a mediation process, not court. Employers have one shot to prove their case. Employers dont just win by proxy, they have a burden of proof.

It really depends on how far and subtly you can push things. Yeah the damages for unpaid wages are low, but even in red states there are penalties for documented retaliatory behavior.

Hence speaking to a lawyer about how to play them into actually breaking the law, and how to document everything correctly. If he has no real case, the lawyer tells him that and he moves on with his life.

My point exactly. Negative reinforcement can get people in line quickly, but if you don't have a method to turn it back around to positive reinforcement with clean and simple rules, your turnover rate is going to skyrocket, and performance will plummet.

Buddy of mine does consulting to save restaurants. She starts off by laying down the law, firing obviously bad employees, and then explaining and strictly enforcing her rules. Then she sets up timetables weeks in advance, and schedules off days months in advance. Off days are first come first served. If you want a day off when you are scheduled and the maximum slots have already been taken, find someone to replace you, or get a no show strike. More than a few strikes, or two back to back strikes, and your gone. The whole dynamic gets flipped around. Employees want to plan ahead, because they see that they are directly responsible for the consequences of their actions when they get turned down for a vacation because they didn't do so. Those that are the best at scheduling get the most freedom in how and when they are scheduled.

It takes a few months, but she's making a solid living flipping places into good shops. As long as they stick with her policies, and the manager doesn't scream at people for turning down unscheduled shifts, the system basically self regulates, and keeps turnover low. On top of that, the quality of service goes up sharply too.

lol all the millenialcucks
>I can work unauthorized overtime, just a little if I want to. HURR

Sorry, is this still Veeky Forums? If you hire some high school fag for $15/hr and he works MORE hours than you wanted him to, are you cool with paying him 1.5 time for shit he should have done DURING HIS SHIFT?

nig nogs pls you're all fired

You can fire him, but if the manager told him he had to finish the job, you are going to be left holding the bag when the DOL comes knockin. It's way cheaper to pay them, slap them on a PIP, and then quietly dispose of them later. If your managers can't control employees, find new managers too.

Getting into pissing contests with the DOL wastes inordinate amounts of time and money. Nobody is above getting thrown under the bus if it will prevent that.

Put in like 20 hours of overtime this week feels good being needed

How does this work as far as SALARY employees? I know there have been laws passed saying they must be paid OT as well...

I'm in Florida, recently starting a decent paying job (60k/yr, better than my 35k/yr) and I've found myself working around 8 hrs OT a week.... yet none of my checks reflect it. I'm a super and report directly to the GM so should I say something to him or the payroll people?

You are probably OT exempt.

My contract does not state that and neither does the company's employee handbook.

>If you want to succeed in business you HAVE to reward hard work.

Apple rewards their hardest workers with a rice ball and a suicide net. They're fairly successful.

No, you don't *have* to do shit. When the machines do 99% of the work and you just need an endless supply of barely-literate monkeys to load materials and affix a few stickers you do not in any way need to treat any individual among the endless supply of monkeys well.

... and the only reason those monkeys even have a job is the fact that the engineer that designed the equipment did the math, and realized they can hire an army of monkeys for less than what it would cost to design and build the complex automation required to simply move a part from Jig A to Jig B.

Some companies do treat their workers fantastically, so they can keep the best of the monkeys, but it is in no way necessary... and just about every industry that has their share of billionaires knows this well.

Why would it have to? Not their job to spell the law out to you.

Google around for it and see if you fit into the requirements for it. Chances are with a 60k a year salary you do.

ok I agree with that.

nobody is advocating doing anything illegal obv. I took Op's pic to mean, "you guys are not authorized to bill overtime hours" which is within an owner or managers right/responsibility to say.

>Unnecessary overtime will be automatically removed from your total hours.
>I'd be talking to an employment attorney about this.
>Unnecessary
>overtime
>Unnecessary overtime

pls do hire an attorney. put all your money into that breh

The implication is that they are willing to forge pay stubs.

Many (most?) employment attorneys operate on contingency. He would lose nothing with a consultation except some of his time.

At my last job I'd always get out at 2-4am

A store can be manned by different people at different times.

>Do you not have stores open until 11 in whatever third-world country you inhabit?
Here in Bavaria everything except for example gas stations closes down at 8pm. But most companies already end their work between 5 and 7. There might be some exceptions though and night shift jobs.

>Nothing illegal with a manager writing a sign that misrepresents the companies ability to do something because he's uninformed.

Liability protection is a thing.

>days off months in advance
Wow that sounds like a satisfying and comfortable place to work.

Working more than what you have discussed while being hired, especially secretly, is disastrous not only to you, but to your colleagues and the entire company in general.

Think about it: Your entire team needs to get a certain amount of work done per week. Before you show up, the team worked exactly 40 hours, never going over. They could get exactly ABCD done in a week, so their goals were adjusted accordingly.

Now, management wants to get ABCDEF done, so they hire you to fill the gap, and the team struggling to hit F working 40 hours. Being the good lackey you are, you decide you're going to stay an extra hour late 3/5 days a week to get F finished. Your manager sees this as "hey user is willing to work longer" OR "hey my team is doing really well we can definitely start picking up GHI on top of the rest!"

Now let's say you can't work those extra hours next week. your team has to work even harder to stay afloat because last weeks work output said they easily completed ABCDEF.

Now all of a sudden you've got a shit team and you all look like goons because you're basically unable to complete almost half of the job.

In retail, especially restaurants, if you want a vacation, you need to schedule it. You aren't forced to schedule it months in advance, it's just first come first served means you won't be guaranteed any time off if you can't request it ahead of time.

It's a really basic trick to flip things back around to employees. Instead of the manager being an asshole for forcing them to work, you can simply point to the very simple and clear rules and make them the asshole for making the manager's scheduling more difficult. It's not the managers fault they didn't plan ahead, so make it clear to them without calling them an asshole. Any employee that can't figure out rules that simple, or who feels entitled to break them, is probably someone you don't want on the payroll in the first place. The rule is absolutely fair, so anyone who complains looks ridiculous to everyone else.

You don't have to set things in stone either. Employees are perfectly free to swap times with the manager, and both employees in unanimous agreement (manager needs to be in on it to block OT sometimes).

Break the consequences down to extremely simplistic rules, and start enforcing them. Even if your policies are based on somewhat negative reinforcement, you will still see positive results when you keep the rules simple, and don't tolerate last minute decisions disrupting schedules. This is true for everyone from minimum wage grunts to six figure salaried suits. You don't need to treat them like children and give them timeouts, but making the rules simple enough that children could follow them, then following through sets a very important precedent about consequences.

Absolutely not.

That's also why you'll be stuck into slavery your all life. You seem like a really awful person and employee.

Overly-loyal wagecucks who drink the company cool aid never reach their career potential as senior stakeholders know they don't need to incentivise them with progression. They'll work their little socks off just for a pat on the back in their 1-2-1s.

The most successful professionals reach the top by demonstrating an ability and work ethic to exceed the terms of their contract, but only if the company promises something extra in return.

Yeah, anyone who's actually worked in any office job knows how terrible this is. The idea of working hard is great in life, but in reality, especially with jobs that involve continuous work it's pretty terrible. The reward for working hard is getting better pay, moving up, and finishing work early in which that's just the joke propaganda taught by universities now. Reality is that if you work harder, you'll get more work to do and if you can't keep up with that work, the management above you will throw you under the bus and if you accomplish it, they will take credit for it.

Ask anyone who's ever worked in Big 4. You'll know if they drank the cool-aid or not if they left within 2-5 years. Big 4 is pretty notorious in selling people short yet we're suppose to think some of those accountants will end up working at McDonalds because they decided to leave the all and mighty Big 4 for a better opportunity and pay. Anybody who's ever going to enter Accounting or Finance should never sell themselves short and have themselves as the highest priority because if they don't, the companies sure as hell will take advantage of that.

>unnecessary overtime
But your overtime was necessary.
TALK to your manager.
ASK your manager if the fact that she made you stay late means that your overtime will be paid.
THEN get a lawyer involved.

Don't get trigger happy before getting a lawyer involved. Lawyers are expensive.

Question; why in the land of freedom that is the USA are you allowed to sue employers for firing you incorrectly? Like, shouldn't an employer be allowed to fire you for whatever they like?

I really agree with this, OP. If a manager is trying to get you out of your comfort zone and you allow it, you're setting yourself up to be his bitch. Don't fall into this trap. Managers want to fuck u over just like any other person on this planet.

Without going into detail, it has historically been driven by unionization, lawsuits, politics, and bad apples.

You're saying its like its a bad thing. The guy is realistic, he's trading his time for money. Why would he keep giving more and more for promises (read: nothing) in return?

If its his OWN business - its a whole different matter.

Assuming this isn't bait:

America has this idea of extremely aggressive personal freedom. You can do all sorts of shit as a person in America, and not be punished for it. It's a very aggressive anti control philosophy that is difficult to explain to outsiders. America is the embodiment of fuck you, so many of our laws are built around the concept of preserving those personal freedoms, and inflicting severe punishments on anyone who violates them.

Someone attacks, you in your own home? Fuck them. You can kill them. You don't need a government to defend your life/liberty/freedom. Their life was forfeit the instant they decided to attack you. Even in states like California this is still true. At will employment is a progression of that. Both sides have the freedom to say fuck you, we're done for nearly any reason. However, the individual has far fewer restrictions than the company, because historically the company has abused the individual when they have had the power to do so. Abuse still happens, but the protections are written so that the individual can tell the company to fuck off. To get rid of an employee, you have to be willing to pay unemployment, give them unclaimed paid PTO, handle workplace harassment, etc. The employee can just walk out. Europe has policies in place to protect employees, and they are frequently far stronger, but the underlying psychology and philosophy of the reasons behind them are different.

Court is a more civilized form of violence. It lets us pretend to be civilized while still embracing the inner barbarism and feral aggression that this country was founded upon, and which still flows through every facet of our society.

I'm grossly oversimplifying things, but suffice it to say, that if you approach everything that seems odd about America from the philosophy of "go fuck yourself / fuck you" things will make a lot more sense.

if they're going to do that shit then you better start at 9am on the dot and finish at 5pm on the dot. no matter what you're doing. you put your shit down and walk out.

Basic contract law. There are good and bad ways to end contracts. The person paying the wage has to follow what's in the contract and legal obligations regarding those contracts. You can sue so people follow the rules.

American to American, you're pretty fucking dumb. You can't even protest without a permit here.

If you want to learn how to truely game the overtime system, join a Union

Its basically all they do

Contact your shop steward and file a grievance.

Interest vs interest fighting each other is a pretty good representation of how common law got to where it is

>Who the hell said anything about forging time cards?

Are we speaking the same language? If I work and clock in for 41 hours, then my manager goes back and changes one of my clock outs back 1 hour, that is forging time card, isn't it? That's what the OP's image is saying their manager is going to do.

>I also laughed hard at the "dangerous advice" comment.

My point is that there's the real possibility he works 5 hours OT, gets his time card changed, hires a lawyer, loses his job, gets no unemployment, and then after months wins his court case for a whole $200. That's all he gets. There is no magic lotto sized payout that some people seem to be hinting at, it's why unpaid wage lawsuits are such shit to run, there's no meaningful money there.

> It doesn't seem like you have any experience at all with this.

Sigh... Do you?

>Unemployement insurance cases literally can not get dragged out since they are decided in a mediation process, not court.

Again, this might be different for *YOU* geographically, but in Florida you can go to court as the last step of an unemployment claim.

> It is hard to get denied unemployment insurance except for anything but blatant misconduct.

Right, that's why in my state you have fun statistics like this:

>"Florida's "recipiency rate" — the proportion of unemployed people who actually receive jobless benefits— is 16 percent, the country's lowest."
>"Only one in three applicants for unemployment compensation in Florida receives any money"

Again, this might be different where *YOU* live, but in Florida, most people don't even apply because of how shit it is, and the minority that do, get denied. It's not hard to sink an unemployment claim in Florida, and violating company policy is one of those ways. You can argue the "ambiguities", but then you'll see yourself as a named plaintiff in *BOTH* an unpaid wage lawsuit and an unemployment appeal, good luck getting hired with that.

Employers will make it impossible for employees to live any sort of reasonable life if given the opportunity to do so. History has shown this and so now the employees are given power to be able to combat this.

this is like the first time ive had this properly explained and understood it

>There is no magic lotto sized payout that some people seem to be hinting at
>whole $200. That's all he gets

You'd have to file a separate lawsuit against your manager for buggering you at work. Your manager can't change your time card and cause you to lose money. You'd get money, damages, payment for lost wages, legal fees, so on and so forth. But that might be $14,000.00...It's not going to be some absurd number in the hundreds of thousands or millions. It's going to be a fair and honest number proven and come about by the simple math facts.

itt: Tell me why I'd want a job again?