How did ancient Greece and Rome came to be the forebearers of North Europeans, but not Middle Eastern...

How did ancient Greece and Rome came to be the forebearers of North Europeans, but not Middle Eastern? North Africa and the Middle East produced popes and Emperors. Alexandria in Egypt had a large Greek population since ancient times. And there are still a large population of Greek Orthodox in Syria. But somehow a modern day German can feel like the ancient Greeks are his ancestors. And not a Syrians? Is this a sort of colonial mentality thing, or is there some logic in it that I have missed?

Other urls found in this thread:

evolutsioon.ut.ee
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Western imperialism be keeping a Muslim bruda down! True answer is Islam. It's always Islam.

There's a certain innate Western inferiority complex that has led Westerners since the Renaissance to identify themselves with ancient Greco-Romans, because they thought that was the only kind of true civilisation there ever was, and believed Western accomplishments to be inferior.

The truth is Western civilisation is separate from Greco-Roman even if it has taken some inspiration from it, just as Near Eastern civilisation has.

Morality is subjective

>Anonymous 07/19/16(Tue)07:16:25 No.1433
Romans never went far into the middle east, almost unanomously stopping at Parthia

Spengler pls go

Spengler is right, and everyone else who seriously studied civilisations makes the same distinction. The only basis for believing ourselves to be Greco-Romans is Renaissance delusion, Muslims for example could make exactly the same claim.

christianity sort of got made by northern paganism, protestant reformations etc. popes been a novelty piece ever since.

muslims are sub human and it turns out rome wasnt all that great but a mere blip into britain and then as it receded from devaluement of its golden so hard worked for currency into bronze and smut its military borders receded (soldiers dont die for devalued currencies, protip) the barbarians came back home /w.

thus because of this we never truely had a pax hegemony based out of italics & rome. not until colonisation & the northern european germanic era did this occur
>vikings in the black sea.badassary

muslims are sand niggers and in spite of it all mere slavetraders and spice road merchents.

history is still young its still early in the game who knows. some things got to change though. namely free market mechanics.austria
see hun supremacy
see prohibition, cannabis, currencies,
see desirable breeding patterns & legitamised population control rather then a race into the sun...

check out hanseatic league, the second globalised corporation in existence, after the first - being the knights of malta > knights templar (banking, loans, trade, security,property, free market, all based out of axiomatic rights of self ownership & property)

The Levant still has a strong Classical identity, notably in Lebanon and Syria.
The Syriac Social Nationalist Party was full-blown WE WUZ GREEKS AN' ASSYRIANS AN' SHEEIT at first

>But somehow a modern day German can feel like the ancient Greeks are his ancestors.

Kill yourself.

>North Africa and the Middle East produced popes and Emperors.

Yes, but how many?

Islam and the Renaissance. Unlike the West, which grew out of the ruins of the Western Empire, and the Orthodox world which was the direct continuation of Roman civilization in the east, the Islamic world created an entirely new civilization originating from outside of Rome. Of course, building an empire from Persia to Morocco and centered in the Levant meant they absorbed the legacy of the cultures they conquered such as the Sassanids and Greeks, the latter even to a far greater extend than in the contemporary West, and hence the Muslims rightly saw the Greeks as their intellectual forefathers. But nonetheless, they had a separate identity did not identify with the 'Romans', who were seen as their Christian Greek enemies. Contrast that with the West where every Germanic king wanted to be the >H >R >E.

Then the translations into Latin and later the Renaissance happened, so that Westerners obsessively worshiped everything old and identified their own civilization with that of Greece and Rome, while in contrast the Islamic world intellectually stagnated and neglected its Greco-Roman heritage. Still, the Greek heritage of the Islamic world still exists today, it's just not as obvious as it is in the West where every important building is neoclassical.

Also, unlike Europe where all civilization is derived from Greece and Rome, in the Middle East there are countless different civilizations that modern nationalists can identify with. Thus, you get Persians worshiping the Achaemenids, Iraqis pretending to be Babylonians, Lebanese pretending to be Phoenicians, etc, regardless of whether the modern nationalities have anything to do with those ancient civilizations (in most cases, they don't).

I think Spengler's retarded, but he's right on that point. The West inherited the legacy of the Classical world to no greater extent than did the Orthodox and the Islamic worlds. Calling the ancient Greeks Western is no different to calling them Islamic.

Autism
Greece is western you are retard

Fuck off this is a no bully zone.

>He doesn't know about the Greek Influence on Arab Culture
>He doesn't know about Coptic Egyptians

Its the fact that the west copied their ideas about law and individuality. The difference between west and east to me has alway been about the difference between individualism and collectivism.

Well those Greeks in Syria and Egypt are descendants from the Greeks in Greece proper. And I would consider things like Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid empire part of the mother culture that is Greece.

>Persians worshiping the Achaemenids
You mean the Sassanids. Both the Arsacids aka Parthians/Parni and the Sassanids were better known to Iranians historically then the Achaemenids until the early 20th century. Also what's the issue with a people enjoying their ancestors?

Italians do it, Greeks do it, French do it, Germans do it, Scandinavians do it, etc...

Also what Greco-Roman heritage of the Islamic world exists? Utilizing Greek, Roman, or Persian academia, intellectuals, and high thinkers does not equate to being culturally based off of Greco-Roman world.

Nonsense. Many Afghan Pashtuns claim direct descent from Alexander. Even to this day.

Europoors were also literally Europoors back in Roman days.
How can you dismiss the most lucrative Roman provinces while saying the poorest ones are the trve heirs of Rome?

That doesn't make it true though.

>Its the fact that the west copied their ideas about law and individuality
They didn't. They just gave Germanic law and individuality a Greek and Roman paint job.

Nothing else to be influenced by.

And I suppose Alexander's claimed descent from Hercules was untrue as well. What matters is what people say.

Besides, there is no reason the descendants of the Greco-Bactrians would not still be present in the regional gene pool. Afghan people look very diverse and have blonde and blue eyes mixed in with all the usual stereotypes you probably think of.

But since you will never actually look this up I feel like I am wasting electrons.

>You mean the Sassanids. Both the Arsacids aka Parthians/Parni and the Sassanids were better known to Iranians historically then the Achaemenids until the early 20th century.
Exactly. I was talking about modern nationalists in that paragraph.

>Also what's the issue with a people enjoying their ancestors?
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I'm just saying Middle Easterners, when they want to identify with an ancient culture, have more choices than just the Greeks and Romans.

>Utilizing Greek, Roman, or Persian academia, intellectuals, and high thinkers does not equate to being culturally based off of Greco-Roman world
It kind of does. Intellectual culture is a lot more important than neoclassical buildings (not that half of Islamic architecture isn't based on Roman models).

>What matters is what people say.
What matters is fact, not fictional belief.

I'm glad then that you ignored the rest of my post about descendants of Bactrians and the unintuitive diversity of the region. I'd post more research but I cannot possibly hope to counter your kneejerk pessimism.

[spoiler]Greek genetic contribution to the Punjab region has been estimated to be up to 15%
evolutsioon.ut.ee /publications /Kivisild2003b. pdf [/spoiler]

I don't think you understand what this thread is about.

We're talking about Middle Eastern perceptions of the Greco-Roman parts of their heritage. If a tribe in Afghanistan thinks it is descended from Alexander, that's evidence of an awareness of Greek heritage, regardless of whether they actually are or not.

>Renaissance delusion

this desu

>christianity sort of got made by northern paganism, protestant reformations etc.

damn

Can you post actual sources?

15% of what? Of what total population? How is it verified?

isn't west europe culture mostly gothic/romanesque then?

t. peasent

Can you just read the pdf? It's in Punjab which abuts Afghanistan.

And no you do not need to sample the total population due to the Central Limit Theorem.

Because the most lucrative Roman provinces became the most lucrative Kebab provinces.

Yes.

>a small correlation is causation guys!

Why are you faggots forgetting the role of germanic culture in western civilization? Most of western culture is a combination of germanic, catholic and greco-roman cultures.

most northern Europeans descend from Germanic peoples not Greeks and romans

Late Antiquity was ended by the Islamic conquests. Islam and subsequent intense Arabisation of much of MENA is seen (rightly in my view) to have severed these regions from the culture of Rome.

>14 AD

That isn't very indicative at all. The area near the German frontier in the 2nd century was rich as fuck, e.g. Trier. Same with Aquitania and Dalmatia. Egyptians individually were poor as fuck.

Germans from northern Germany cannot truly trace their roots back to ancient Rome. The closest they can get is the Ostrogoths who were the ones that led to western Rome's downfall. People from France and even southern Britain, even the Welsh can trace their roots back to Rome far better than northern Germans. I say this being half Scandinavian.

Also yes, Syrians can trace their liniage back to Byzantium, and they shouldn't be prevented from doing this, like pic related might want.

In case you were wondering, the Roman ideals are very much in contrast with the Nazi party of Germany, as Rome incorporated many people from Alexandria and other settlements in Northern Africa, and Mussolini attacked much of North Africa and did not have plans to eventually incorporate them into a senate which the Romans did for Gaul (france) and Hispania (spain) and Alexandria and surrounding Egypt.

Furthermore Byzantium was a bit more inclusive of the lands it oversaw, and still had representation from Alexandria, but not as much Jerusalem, which was a shame because of all the Samaritans and descendants of the Sadducees as well as native Christians there.

I would go so far as to say that Syrians have more of a right to claim their Greek and Roman heritage than Germans or people from Poland do.

Ostrogoths weren't from northern Germany.

>Syrians have more of a right to claim their Greek and Roman heritage than Germans or people from Poland do.

They do. A couple of Roman emperors were Syrian. Hell there was an emperor called "Phillp the Arab" too.

weak bait

> But somehow a modern day German can feel like the ancient Greeks are his ancestors.

I can promise you no modern day german feels like the ancient greeks are his ancestors

Ostrogoths had an "empire" around Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland and even Ukraine, and Poland was a part of Germany before the world wars.

>In case you were wondering, the Roman ideals are very much in contrast with the Nazi party of Germany, as Rome incorporated many people from Alexandria and other settlements in Northern Africa

lol. The Nazi party had North African, Turkish and Japanese Nazis. They were allied with Arabs and Hitler admired and extolled Islam. They considered North Indians and Persians to be part of the Aryan race, but not slavs, and obviously saw slavs as an inferior race. They also considered Japanese and Chinese people to be equal to Aryans and superior to slavs. The Nazis most certainly would have incoporated many non-white races into their empire while exterminating white races like slavs and ashkenazi jews

>Syrians have more of a right to claim their Greek and Roman heritage than Germans or people from Poland do.

lol. Germans made up the majority of the roman military at one point and eventually took over the western roman empire. Their culture has much more to do with Roman culture then Syrian culture, which has nothing to do with it at all. Stop trying to be a contrarian edgelord

I can assure you that you're speaking bullshit. Ignoring the fact that the "Ostrogoths" didn't exist as a discernible entity in any way before one part of their wider group entered Roman soil, the Goths migrated south from the Baltic down towards the Black Sea, with some staying in Crimea (forever it turned out) and others heading south towards the Danube. They didn't occupy all of these places at once. Like other groups of the period they migrated about. Under Hunnic rule for a few years they exploited the chaos of Attila's death to break away and several groups under the family of Theodoric, Valamer and Thiudemer and others like that crossed into the empire to gouge the Empire for cash.

Also, Poland was a part of Germany only after waves of Christian conquest and Germanisation in the Late Middle Ages. A millenium after the events we are talking about.

> The West inherited the legacy of the Classical world to no greater extent than did the Orthodox and the Islamic worlds.

Mudslims don't have anything to do with the greco-romans legacy, they don't even teach the iliad and odyssey to their kids unlike the westerners, let alone philosophy.

we all came from africa user

You're an idiot and this is why;
The Greeks and Macedonians living in Asia were part of the Greek world which stretched from Spain to India. The Hellenistic era was the wet dream of Hitler. Hellenes conquered their lebensraum and founded mighty empires and dominated the world. A Greek could speak koine in Spain and travel to India without having to speak another language. While the Hellenistic kingdoms have had a small boost in popularity in the last years, they are still unknown due to bias in historical sources. The Romans viewed the Hellenistic kingdoms as weak and spoke unfairly of them in their propaganda while the Persians whom later took back their lands simply hated Greeks.

That literally doesn't refute anything I said nor is it bait.

Greek culture, both Roman and classical, had an absolutely massive influence on early Islam.

In a way, ancient Greek culture is the common ancestor of Mediterranean cultures. However, each "branch" developed differently and after 1500 years are completely different from each other today.

I would argue that the Catholic Church + enlightenment values define the West much more than >muh Illiad >muh Senate.

>The truth is Western civilisation is separate from Greco-Roman even if it has taken some inspiration from it

Darkies need drugs to survive in Europe or their bones melt.

There's no causality involved you moron. I'm not saying that 15% of people having this haplotype causes something, like AIDS, or the cancer in your brain. I'm simply answering the question "does this haplotype exist in the population?"

Now as for the question "what causes this haplotype to exist in the population?" I don't even need to answer. Sure, it's possible for it to randomly arise out of freak convergent evolution, or for aliens to have done it, or other demi-mundane causes. I'll leave it to you to apply Occam's Razor, do your own math, or better yet leave this board until you have taken a class in basic statistics.