How would the unified Japan under Toyotomi or Tokugawa have done against a major European power of the time?
Assuming they were geographical neighbours and not separated by sea.
This isn't about samurai vs knight but kingdom (nation) against kingdom.
I assume Japan btfo?
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Toyotomi was a nigger
>Ay shit, I rose from peasantry to be the taiko through military, better outlaw peasant soldiers and carrying weapons so no one else can repeat what I did and my wife's son can rule forever, let's invade Korea hey and then the Ming ;^)
>Japan btfo?
Probably. And they were very aware of this fact, the Spanish presence in the Philippines was one of the major reasons behing the Sakoku.
Japan was backwards and too easily divided at the time. Sure they would be able to shit out troops initially but then they'd lose battles without cannons and their forts being utter shit. And then the clans would just say fuck it and revolt on Toyotomi or Tokugawa.
Before Meiji Restoration = BTFO
After Meiji Restoration = BTFO the world so hard in order to stop them they have to be nuked
Not quite, but they did BTFO Russia, which pretended to be a world power at the time.
>btfo russia
Russia was at a massive disadvantage and had to transport troops and supplies across the entire continent of Asia on a single rail line. Japan just sent shitloads of soldiers on a little boat trip.
They were a world power until they've lost the Russo-Japanese war,just because you don't like them doesn't mean that you can discredit them with impunity.
Very badly,they were both physically weaker and technologically behind their European counterparts.
Not quite, The Tokugawa were considering further attempts at expansion until the Shimabara campaign were they saw just how far their forces had declined in the decades since the Osaka campaign
Everyone on Europe was scared shitless of Russia at that time, specially a fully industrialised Russia
Well that's 17th century Europe then, which is pike and shot and heavy cavalry. They blow Japan to pieces.
Get your medieval 12th century knight out of here because you're talking about the 17th century.
Yeah no, Japans technology was far more advanced at the time than Europe as they were much closer to China. Japan would be fielding many, more advanced, artillery pieces, firearms and infantryman. That coupled with the manuverability of their troops as compared to fully armored troops they could win any engagement.
Unless of course you are so idiotic you think they would face the knights on the open battle field.
>warefare relies solely on the infantrymen.
When will this meme end? Read a book.
Master Sun Said:
Ware is
A grave affair of state;
It is a place
Of life and death,
A road
To survival and Extinction
A matter
To be pondered carefully
There are Five Fundementals
For this deliberation,
For the making of comparisons
And the assesing of conditions:
The Way,
Heaven,
Earth,
Command,
Discipline.
The Way
Causes men
To be of one mind
With their rulers,
To live or die with them,
And to never waver.
Heaven is
Ying and Yang
Cold and Hot,
The cycle of the seasons
Earth is
Height and depth,
Distance and proximity,
Ease and Danger,
Open and confined ground,
Life and death.
Command is
Wisdom,
Integrity,
Compassion,
Courage,
Severity.
Discipline is
Organization
Chain of command,
Control of expenditure.
Every command is aware
Of these
Five Fundamentals
He who grasps them
Wins;
He who fails to grasp them
Loses.
He then goes on to say further on that when the commanders who are facing each other command the Five Fundamentals equally it comes down to the skill of the individual soldier, when that is also equal Heaven decides the victor.
tl;dr - Commanders are everything soldiers aren't shit but a number. This knowledge is only thousands of years old.
Need more dimensions to your post. At the very least this is slightly better than the average versus thread in stipulating both countries are magically land neighbours.
The problem with your assumption though is of course the internal dispositions and readiness for war of a given kingdom is determined by it's proximity to neighbours, and the Tokugawa were pretty secured by their island position, so your scenario inherently disadvantages the Japanese.
Europe would win. Pyrrically. Japan would be easy to invade but impossible to conquer. At the same time Japan's complete ignorance of shipbuilding means they would only ever be able to fight a defensive war. From nobunaga onward japanese faught with muskets not swords, but they never could get their hands on enough cannons. Because of Japan's dense wilderness and many mountains, the best way to attack would be naval strikes at port cities, then a quick retreat. Attacking Kyoto would be the hardest part of the traditional war, but after that was done, the invaders would have to prepare for a never ending guerrilla hell.
t. Ivan Ivanov
Wat. This is total bollocks.
Europe in 1650 had far more advanced war technology than Japan in 1650. Europe was beginning to switch to flintlocks over matchlocks, cannons were becoming standardised into specific calibres and artillery accuracy was a developing school. Pikemen were extremely well drilled and could pull of complex maneuvers. Cavalry was heavy and well armed, with pistols and carbines, swords, axes and even warhammers still. Some cavalry was still wearing near full plate, which at this period was very bullet resistant.
>manuverability of their troops as compared to fully armored troops
the majority of European troops were not fully armoued, most had no armour, pikemen and cavalry had a breast plate and helmet. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.
Muh glorius Master Sun, book of war, i only remark on obvius things
Weaboo spotted.
Do you know what happens if you have shitty weapons and armors and fight with heavy equipped soldiers?
en.wikipedia.org
Or maybe similar example but with very Japan?
en.wikipedia.org
Yeah, these are not from medieval period, but you get the point.
But he's right.
Russia lost because they fought in a remote area. In land combat, Japanese had huge losses.
well done china well done china
HOWEVER
Just about the only advantage an unified Japan would have had over an European power of that period was numbers. Beyond that, they had decent musket troops and some pikes, but their cavalry would have gotten stomped and their artillery was nearly non-existent.
>British Empire
>Gone within two centuries.
>Chinkdom.
>Roughly retains Post-Qing Borders.