Why is it taboo to talk about wages with co-employees?

Why is it taboo to talk about wages with co-employees?

It's only that way at shitty companies.

Because people tend to get uppity when they realise how badly they're being fucked.

docs google com/spreadsheets/d/1l3bXAv8JE5RB9siMq36-Ogngks2MT6yQ5gt8YXhUyAg/edit#gid=1533208969&vpid=G2

To put it this way. My wife entered Social Work recently at 50k in the company she interned at. The co-employee that trained her and supervised her spent 2 years there already, she's making 35k. It's taboo because it would kill the employees motivation if they know they're being sold short, it also is taboo because if you know somebody making a shit ton more money than you...and you work harder than him, it would cause a problem. It kind of doesn't matter as much anymore though because there is so much salary/statistical information online that you could bargain a salary/wage pretty fucking close to the limit of what they want to pay.

Because retards think that if they tell you their salary and they make more than you that you would become envious and cause problems for them.
When the reality is most people have the common sense to go talk to their superiors instead.

And despite the next few being illegal for companies to do (In the U.S. btw), I still get told this by literally every person I've ever worked with:
There is a myth that employers will fire you for talking about your wage.
The myth of your superiors treating you like crap if they find out.
There are several employers that make talking about your wage a cite-able offense (get written up) despite it being illegal.

Yes, the average normalfag is this retarded.

I also get made fun of by these people for having the balls to ask for regular raises.
Then they wonder how I make more than them.

>Why is it taboo to talk about wages with co-employees?

It isn't. That's what management wants you to believe because it's super convenient for them.

Look, they'll never give you more than what your work is worth. That would be retarded. But they'll gladly pay you less and most employees are too stupid, timid, content or afraid to push their boss to the maximum when negotiating salary.

That's part of the truth behind the gender wage gap. Women are on average less likely to negioate a raise fiercely. Hence why their management gladly underpays them and hence why so many feminist organisations push for publication of salaries so everyone could compare.

People are petty.

Two thirds of my department hates me and my boss because we have our own private offices while everyone else is in an open plan office.

And it's only like that because we're in a different building where there are only private offices.

The department head literally wanted to slash our bonuses at one point just to make the rest of his office feel better about the "preferential treatment" we get.

this.
Its an artificial taboo invented for the middle class.
Why?
To limit the data you have about the labor market. The less data you got - the worse decisions you'll make in your negotiation.

This is the truth. it's a divide and conquer strategy

i work at a large company with set pay grades

nobody ever says figures but "rank 01" "rank 02" etc communicates pretty much what you're getting

/thread

There is a npr planet money podcast about this topic

What always boggles my mind is that why do people play into it though? I used to intern for tech support in a government role, and frequently it was just me with about 7 other guys in a basement alone. Our boss would come down sometimes once a week for meetings, but that was it.

When payday came, I wanted to get a reference on how much these guys were getting paid - Most of them looked shocked I would ask such a thing and the only ones who actually told me was an old guy that didn't give a shit about the world and a guy only 5 or so years older than me that also thought that corporate bullshit was retarded.

Why is anyone 30-60 years old in the workforce literal sheep?

if anyone ever asks me, i just say things like "not enough" or "the same as you". you can also lie and say you make less or more but that is not recommended and defeats the purpose of not making money

if someone is really pestering me i would say it's a personal question.

it's really funny when non degree cucks i knew in HS ask me how much i make

>be 20
>at internship finally after 2 years of engineering degree
>buddy from HS doesnt go to uni and works in a cigar shop
>surprisingly made connections with another cigar shop owner and became a waiter at a cigar enthusiast restaurant
>asks me what i make at internship
>tell him pretty good money
>naw bro come on for real
>tell him 17/hr
>he tells me he has been working the whole time ive been studying and has more money saved up
>says he might move up from 20 to 25/hr soon
>and theres tons of oppurtunities even without a degree
>tfw i lied when i really made 23/hr
>he ended up getting fired and i work in oil now making 90k at 25

Think pragmatically: What's the best outcome that could happen for them?

a) They reveal their salary and it's way higher than someone on the same level as them. They just made themselves a target for hatred and jealousy among their colleagues.
b) They reveal their salary and it's way lower than someone on the same level. They just made themselves a target for ridicule, plus they also feel like shit and have to somehow confront management about an unplanned substatial raise if they want to catch up.
c) They reveal their salary and it's pretty much on par with someone on the same level. Nothing changes, nobody gains anything.

The best outcome is that literally nothing happens. The worst outcome is that their working life turns to shit for days, weeks, possibly months to come.

Here's one fundamental psychological truth about humans: People are afraid of other peoples' reacations.
Sure, if there was actual solidarity and if they actually banded together - surely, then they could change the situation of everyone for the better, right? Yeah, right... Read up on game theory and Nash equilibria and get back to me on that subject...

>purpose of not making money
not asking about how much money people make
jesus how did that happen

it's not that, just most people personally think they worth a lot more than their colleagues and get pissed off if they earn less.
performance is subjective wage is objective. this creates tension no matter what. unless everyone earns the same but then you get all shit employees long term.

/thread

Then the boss is gonna have a problem, I think all wages should be advertised to everyone at a company so everyone knows who is making what. Would make things more fair.

some companies have wage transparancy. at whole foods i just had to talk to the in store HR lady and she would tell me who made what.

What degree type? Is electrical engineering good to get into?

or you could just, you know, ask your co-workers. the people complaining about their shit pay are always either terrible negotiators or the least productive in the office.

i did mechanical engineering, decided i wanted to be in oil and gas/energy and networked accordingly

EE is breddy gud. but its not like DUDE EE LMAO GIMME A JOB, you gotta research industries (RF, MEMS, semiconductors etc) and strategically insert yourself into the field. This all falls into place nicely if you find something you are passionate about (like me with energy/ oil and gas; i networked n researched n shit)

you can't always negotiate, I'm an electrician and the pay is the same for everyone. Everyone get's a raise or nobody does.

fucking commies

if you ask for a raise my boss would just laugh at you. And we're one of the higher paying companies so its not like everyone can just quit.

Because it makes it easier for the proletariat to see the injustice in society.

Because if you negotiate better than someone else who has the same title as you, they are going to be mightily angry when they found out how much you make.

Why fight a battle when you gain nothing by winning?

trolling co-workers is winning though

I get asked constantly how much I make which is $21/hr I'm only 22 so old guys that been here forever are just to betas to demand better pay and probably sitting at like $16

"wage equality" laws allow women to sue their companies and get all the pay records. So that they can prove they are being paid less simply because they are a woman.

Now here is the pickle, effectively equal male employees can be paid different amounts. It just happens. So if you have 4 new hires that are effectively equal. One being a woman and the others men. The men are all paid differently. How do you make the woman's pay
"equal"? So your company doesn't get hammered by wage equality laws?

Hey biz.

I'm 6 months into a business analyst position. I only make 46k

. But I recognize the company took a risk on giving me the position (internal promotion from hourly slave with bs in econ .)
A position that was created at the request of the client. And which my company wasn't sure would work out.


Our fiscal ended in july. On Friday I got a 5% bonus and a 5% raise.


Is this good or bad? I was planing on asking for 10 at the 1year mark.

We charge the customer roughly 75k a year for my position. And the client thinks I make 60ish.

In the past 6 months I have saved the client over 300,000$ in documented expenses.


Should I still ask for a raise at 1 year? Should I tone it down from 10% ?

Should I shut up. Milk this for experience then jet?

Definitely raise this issue to your manager. You are not going to get fired for asking a raise (especially when your record speaks for itself). The worst that can happen is when management rejects your proposal. Are you going to feel demoralized and reflect this in your work?

Dubs of truth

You at least have some raw data to back up your reasoning. When you start talking numbers and showing you know your value to the client you'll be able to negotiate your salary better

Ask for 10% raise, and see what their counter is if there is any. If they try to work their way in the middle see if you can negotiate any remote work, extra vacation time or something else. I think you should always try to counter a counter offer and you'll have more success by asking for other things instead of an extra percentage point on the raise for your salary

Your company didn't think it would work but it turned out to be a successful move on their end and you need to ride that wave now or you won't get another chance

You get one chance in a review, if you have to try to talk to management you risk cutting into people's workloads, possibly pissing them off, and you look kinda desperate which kills any bargaining power you have

Get some leverage if you can. May apply somewhere else, see if someone will offer you a better salary. Take that to your boss and tell him you'd like him to match or you're taking off.

Is it justified to pay an employee less than another, because one has higher education?
Even if they do exactly the same job and are equally performant?

>Why is anyone 30-60 years old in the workforce literal sheep?
They've been trained to accept things the way they are.

>a) They reveal their salary and it's way higher than someone on the same level as them. They just made themselves a target for hatred and jealousy among their colleagues.
Anyone who acts like that (women) shouldn't be working in the first place. In reality, the person who is making the most might be subject to suspicion, but mostly admiration and questioning of how they got that better salary. This would only improve efficiency and work ethic in the company.

>b) They reveal their salary and it's way lower than someone on the same level. They just made themselves a target for ridicule, plus they also feel like shit and have to somehow confront management about an unplanned substatial raise if they want to catch up.
Once again, this is only a problem for female companies. In a male company, a worker can ask what they can do better and work on it, to increase that salary. If the answer is nothing, they can attempt to find other employment in their field.

>c) They reveal their salary and it's pretty much on par with someone on the same level. Nothing changes, nobody gains anything.
Everyone gains a sense of satisfaction in this case, or realizes they are being equally screwed over and can organize a strike.

At the very least, with transparency there are no hidden deals, no lies, and no underhanded tactics.

Your psychology is bad.

Corporations tended to use this as a divide and conquer tactic in the 1950s. The reason behind not discussing wages with other employees is to simply play them off of each other. Keep them separate so they wouldnt be able to come together and exchange ideas. To prevent them from UNIONIZING to get the same wage.

Thanks guys.


I will have my review in December.

I will compile my evidence now and make a strong case.


I already get 2 weeks vacation , plus 5 personal days, and 8 paid holidays ( union manufacturing plant so even though I'm "management " I get every union holiday off.)

On top of that I can work from home all I want ( I don't, very often because I think the face time with the client is important for my role)

The company is paying 5k a year for school. And paying for my black belt this year and PMP next year.


I just want to crack the 60k in the next 3 years before I jump ship.

>i work at a large company with set pay grades
Very large chance those pay grades vary higher up. I work for a software company, can't say which but it's older than your grandparents. Their pay grades vary a great deal, about 40k difference from the bottom of my pay grade to the top.

I don't quite follow...
>Start a new position @ $46k
>Reduce your companies earnings by $300k?
>>"..saved the client (customer?) over $300k" (e.g. reduced their spending??)
>Expect reward?

Am I crossing wires and you're really 'earning' your company $300k?

>Every man is reasonable
>I understand psychology

Think back to highschool, user. Do you think half those guys are reasonable and respectable adults today?

He may be, and deserves a raise, but keep in mind his entire purpose is to generate money for the company, which employs plenty of positions that don't directly generate income (clerks, janitors, managers) not to mention real estate expenses.

He's not generating on a 1:1 ratio, his entire job is to generate income so the company can maintain other positions as well.

We have gain share pain share.

I discovered an number of overcharges by our clients supplierd, and identified and streamlined unnecessary supplies/ raw materials for the production cycle which eliminated additional expenses from other companies that our client has dealings with.


These savings were over $300,000 in cost saving to the client. Under our pain/gain. That savings translates to a 100,000$ payday to my company ( 33% gain, 50% pain arrangement)

Our contract is a little over 4million at this site.
My company is charging the client 75-80k a year to have a business analyst on the account.


My employment cost is not paid by my company, the way the contract is structured , because my position was requested by the client, for the next 5 years the client pays a set fee of 75k for my services. After 5 years we renegotiate our contract and we will see what happens then.

To reiterate.

My company is one of many contractors and suppliers employed by a much much larger manufacturing company.

Gotchya. Cool man. Good job

Yeah they could do that, and they probably should do that. Yet some people...even in educated industries/fields don't understand the small variables with getting paid more. In Social Work experience is secondary to getting a state LSW/LISW licensure. In Accounting experience/education is secondary to getting a CPA/CMA/CISA.

>WOW, why am I making 20k less than the NEW GUY!???

Probably because this employee was retarded and too lazy to continue studying for his CPA after college to make that extra money like the new guy did.

I second what
said.

You need to insert yourself in the right subfield. Just like any major EE is broad as hell and if you pick a dying sector you gonna do bad...

I got lucky and am in optical communications (PHY layer) mixed signals. I did work in processors before but there's less competition and political BS in the field I am in now and so lots of job security.

However, it's all about timing as well. When I joined wireline comm was dying but now that they're moving away from copper and into optical and getting datacenters instead of telco's as customers this shit is now hot hot hot.

FYI: look at: $ACIA

because companies like paying what they can get away with...

it is a good idea to get as much information as possible about wages as an employee, it is also a good idea to keep your CV/linked in up to date, keep in contact with recruiters and occasionally attend interviews even if you're not actively looking to move! Just to get things opportunities lined up, get an idea of your potential worth in the market etc..

there are other factors like the market rate for some skill sets changing over time, so depending on when certain people joined the company they might be earning very different amounts to their colleagues, most employers don't want employees to find this out. employees who are actively looking and who probably negotiated when getting their offer won't likely have this issue, complacent employees who will stay there for years and accept the pay they're given will be taken advantage of, the last thing the company wants is for the complacent employees to suddenly become pissed off so they make discussing pay a negative thing even thought you really ought to be finding out everything you can about pay as an employee

if you're making 46k then you get a 5% raise + bonus and the client only pays 75k then when you factor in other benefits, medical, retirement + the cost of providing you with a desk, office space... admin costs associated with employees etc.. you might well find that you're not really much of a revenue generator but are just someone that they've created a role for at no real net expense/break even in order to keep a valued client happy

in which case, by all means push for more, but you might not really have the leverage/justification for it that you first though

using the role for the experience then moving onto a consulting position where every day you work is billable at more like a couple of grand a day or so would be the way to get better pay. Billing 75k a year for you isn't really very much.

to put it into context people billing mid 400k a year would probably only be taking home 100-something per year in some PS arms of software firms as the revenue they generate also has to go towards paying for staff that are cost centres, paying profits towards the firms partners or shareholders etc.. not to mention all the other expenses the company has

so billing 75k when earning 40-something just smacks of your company doing a client a favour and not really using you to generate revenue

It could breed jealousy/contempt, not just for one another but for the employer as well

You're hilariously autistic if you think people being envious of you having the only other private office is "petty." There's little wonder everyone hates you honestly.

t. Someone with a private office that not everyone hates.

>

it is corporate policy at most corporations iianm, for reasons of there are large differences in bonus pay fore equal ranking employees and bad for morale if they found out, it is a power lever for the manager to wield, and they never cede power to peons

Mostly this. The company has the power when you don't know the ballpark wage coming in, so they might be able to lowball you, plus there might be people technically below you or who do less work than you but get paid more and this can affect employee happiness.

This is the real reason, employers can control the wage as they want, they can pay more to their whores or to people who have been able to negociate better, that does not mean they are producing more than people that makes the sams type of work and wagecucks follow the rule for fear..... fear to lose their jobs, fear to be fired.... so it has become a control weapon

Violation of company policy
YOUR FIRED!

im sorry my man, but the other user is right. The human spirit and mind is but a lethargic coalescence of feeble fallacy.

if you're underpaid contempt of the employer isn't a bad thing

This.

The concept of "pay grades" is entirely dependent upon your job title, which is often fudge by HR to justify paying high performers more than their peers while leaving their functional role the same.

Pay grades are simply bullshit HR pandering to combat employment discrimination lawsuits.

He just explained that on top of the payment his employer is receiving from the client, he's also saving his employer over $100k per annum in superfluous expenses. So, in essence he's getting paid $46k + benefits (maybe $20k?), and earning his company at least $175k annual.

Its a 100% guarantee most of you are being scammed by your employer. Some people get paid more than others and this sometimes breeds resentment and anger especially if one feels you are being paid more for doing less or an equal amount to them.

That's how my company works too. It may, as the other user mentioned, vary alot in the higher positions, but for most of our people the pay grades only vary a few grand at the most.

Among commission people, your actual pay isn't posted, but their is a scoreboard that breaks down asset capture, new accounts, actualized sales ect and everyone knows the commission formulas so for salesfags pay is basically advertised daily.

Bump