Atheists don't believe in God because they can't touch him with their cheetoh dust-covered paws

It isn't an exemption from cause, but it is essentially causeless because of the infinite series of causes that originally caused it.

The Source of Everything, would be the "first" Cause and all causes before it. Scientifically, if you were to exclude all notions of Spirit and look for the Original Source, that is what we call God.

If you looked at mass explode into a million different particles, the mass exploded because of something, and the particles that come from the exploding mass are still similar, all the particles have the same mass as its origination.

The point is that the only "solution" to the problem of causality is add in something that is causeless, and that if one thing can be causeless it could just as easily be anything else. Call it god if you want but that implies literally nothing about its nature aside from it having no cause outside itself

Essentially causeless doesn't mean without cause.

We can't fully calculate every event leading up to the big bang, but there are an infinite amount of causes, therefore making it metaphorically causeless.

Nothing is separate from cause and effect.

The universe is the effect of a cause, the infinite series of causes is "metaphorically" causeless, but still is a series of causes.

Cause and Effect is always true. This post is the effect of the post before, which is posted because etc etc etc. The thread is the effect of OP's thought. OP's posted the thread be Cause.. etc etc

Sorry Op, you're a faggot. The christian god is fictional.

>causeless doesn't mean without cause
It literally does

>We can't fully calculate every event leading up to the big bang
We know literally nothing about what anything was like before the moment of the big bang

>The universe is the effect of a cause, the infinite series of causes is "metaphorically" causeless, but still is a series of causes.
An infinite regression of causes is the same thing as no cause at all, because there is no originating cause

>Cause and Effect is always true
We can only be reasonably certain of this up until the moment of the big bang

According to opinion, the "Christian God" is fictional.

What resources lead you to this conclusion?

Metaphorically, causeless means infinite series of incalculable causes. In this context, not literally. We can't find the evidence before the Big Bang.

>An infinite regression of causes is the same thing as no cause at all, because there is no originating cause

Not a fan of green texting, but how come when I say causeless is a series of infinite causes, you question it and then say "infinite regressions of cause is the same thing as no cause at all" and all the sudden it is totally different.

Literally saying the same thing. both of us.

We can be reasonably Certain that Cause and Effect is before the big bang, and operates on all planes. Everything is the Effect of a Cause. The conditions of something is because of conditions before it

I'm saying that an infinite regression doesnt solve the problem of causality, because its identical to no cause at all, so causality logically breaks down.

Any chain of causal events eventually becomes uncaused, violating causality

Everything is the Effect of a Cause. There has always been an infinite number of Causes and Effects, before the Big bang and after the heavens and earth pass away, there will always be ongoing causes and effects throughout the universe, infinitely.

Even our own life has infinite sequences from before birth and after death. Before birth, millions of causes that are relevant to us now happened. During our life, we are witnessing infinite causes. After our death, the energy in us leaves and those are new causes that create new effects etc etc, and the people see our "death" as an effect to the cause of death, and their new perception of life/death is because of new life/death

"I don't understand so I'm going to make huge guesses and make fun of any opinions trying to actualy explain it" It's a much longer stretch to just jump into God making the universe and man than the scientific take.

1. That which begins to exist has a cause.
2. The Universe began to exist.
3. The Universe has a cause.
4. God did not begin to exist, therefore nothing caused God.

>Everything is the Effect of a Cause
This is indeed the central axiom of causality

>There has always been an infinite number of Causes and Effects
Firstly you cant prove that, and secondly we have already (I think) agreed that an infinite regression of causes is the same as no cause, so you are essentially saying Everything is the Effect of No Cause, which contradicts the first staement

I dont care about the rest of what you wrote because you just made it up with no justification and repeatedly abuse the term "infinite"

Not all Atheists hate god, most just don't care about religion.

>2. The Universe began to exist.
Not proven. The big bang was not the start of the universe unless you use a very limited definition of "universe" which kinda defeats the point of the argument

Oh I dunno, probably the same things that led me to think all other deities are fictional, namely a distinctive lack of evidence of any real quality.

>Not all Atheists hate god
The term for that would be antitheist, which is a seperate but related thing to atheism. Not all of the former are the latter and not all of the latter are the former

We live in the proof of infinite cause and effects.

For example, I can not respond, the effect is that you feel smarter because that is how people win on the internet.

Or, someone can be at home and then decide to go to the movies, and then the series of effects after the movie go on. If they went to the store instead of the movie, the cause and effects would be very different. The choices are without number. The events that come after any cause are without number.

Everything is the Effect of Cause.

>Everything is the Effect of No Cause
Not unless Everything is the effect of Cause.

>We live in the proof of infinite cause and effects.
No we live in a world of an arbitrarily high but finite number of causes and effects that converge on the big bang, at which point our ability to investigate stops

How can you prove anything exists if you don't look for it?

How can you eat pizza if no one cooked/ordered a pizza? Where does it appear?

It is another situation that in order for any substantial proof of God, you have to be willing to accept the terms and conditions of how to get out there. You have to call the pizza place in order for them to deliver you a pizza, and you must call Heaven if you want any piece of evidence coming your way

>No we live in a world of an arbitrarily high but finite number of causes and effects that converge on the big bang, at which point our ability to investigate stops

Our ability to investigate is eternal. You could search ANYTHING on Google right now, the possibilities for you are endless. You could get offline and go outside, where outside? There are so many places! Why not make food? What do you have in your fridge? The combinations are endless.

Even if you decided to calculate every "limited number of possibilities" You would have so many equations and attempting equations in front of you all coming from hypothesis and variable

Why start with just "No" because your opinion is different than my opinion, as if I am all the sudden totally wrong? It isn't just you, but a lot of people on here.

Look for what? Verifiable independent confirmation of the supernatural events in the bible? Doesn't exist.

>>blah blah just pray and you will see or some shit
Tried that when I was a child, grew up and realized that the abrahamic/christian god was fictional.

>Our ability to investigate is eternal
It literally is not, extremely high is categorically not the same thing as infinite. Besides that, the big bang represents the wall at which the actual laws of the universe stop applying, there is no conceivable way investigate beyond that point

How will you find verifiable evidence of stuffed that happened thousands of years ago? A time machine? Didn't think so.

Live in the present, and look for God, in the present. You ask God in the present for the guidance for what applies to you.

People didn't convert because they found historical evidence of Christ, they converted because of their attempt to reach out to Him and their revelation of received wisdom that is clearly of a higher mind than our own.

No one said the big bang has no cause, just that it's impossible with current information to understand the cause.

If you want to think a omniscient omnipotent bearded skydaddy in white robes in the shape of a man with a great master plan birth himself in the form of his son to get skewered on a stick because you don't know what caused the big bang, that's kind of retarded.

If you want to say god is the mystery of the universe, there's no point in even using the word god. Just because everything we do originates from thought, which it doesn't really, that has nothing to do with anything else in the universe.

It literally is infinite. You could Google search a letter, a language, houses for sale, the universe, articles, ANYTHING. And instead of Google something, you could do an infinite amount of other things right now. If you choose inaction, you can choose from an infinite series of thoughts.

There is plenty of conceivable ways to investigate anything, countless ways. By denying it, you limit yourself. By accepting even the slightest possibility, you can move forward, rather than stay still.

Even staying still in meditation is a doorway to seeing all the possible things to do / outcomes / anything in a state of blissful thinking and awareness.

>>How will you find verifiable evidence of stuffed that happened thousands of years ago? A time machine? Didn't think so.

Nice dodge, but the fact remains that for example the supposed supernatural events following the supposed resurrection of christ have little if any independent confirmation, the only source you have is Eusebius and he just plain isn't reliable. Furthermore, the works he's supposedly quoting from no longer exist.

>>Live in the present, and look for God, in the present. You ask God in the present for the guidance for what applies to you.

There is no one to look for and thus no one to ask anything.

>>People didn't convert because they found historical evidence of Christ, they converted because of their attempt to reach out to Him and their revelation of received wisdom that is clearly of a higher mind than our own.

People converted for all sorts of reasons, some of which make your faith look really fucking bad.

>Atheists don't believe in god but believe the universe exploding into existence for no reason

Dark Energy/Matter is just what we call the "unknown" that causes discrepancies in calculations (which are otherwise consistent in other areas). But we don't ascribe properties to this hypothetical energy/matter other than what is observed. It's similar to the concept of the "UFO" - they definitely exist, in that there are flying objects that are unidentified, that's what the term means. But saying they're alien spaceships or military aircraft or something requires us to ascribe characteristics to them that we have no real evidence for - and that sort of thing is unscientific.

Also, with regards to the image
>single-cell lifeforms emerge spontaneously from primordial soup
This seems pretty accurate, makes more sense than the idea that some invisible "being" consciously created life. If "God" played a role at all, it was in constructing the laws of physics so that life could evolve.

>dinosaurs mysteriously vanish right around te time man emerges before we ever get to see them
Not really "right around the time", we're talking a gap of over 50 million years, i.e. the time between the extinction of the dinosaurs and the first humans is over twenty times as long as humans have been around

>he personally inseminates chimpanzees and orangutans without success
Not surprising, merely being different species usually indicates enough evolutionary divergence has occurred that reproduction between them is no longer possible

>2015: aliens still haven't contacted earth. they must still be evolving.
Even if they have evolved sufficiently already, we're talking likely millions of years to reach us, depending on how far away they are.

>You could Google search a letter, a language, houses for sale, the universe, articles, ANYTHING
So? There is not an infinite amount of any of those. There are only about 10^80 discrete things in the universe, and some much larger but still finite number of possible interactions between them

How are you failing to understand the difference between Very High and Infinite?

One could say "god created the universe", if we merely define "god" as "the cause of which the universe is the effect". That's perfectly valid. When it ceases to be valid is when you use that to argue that, since "god" (by the above definition) must exist, "god" must also have all of the traits ascribed to him by the various religions.

A quick google search found a better number, giving around 10^123 different possible quantum states for the observable universe, which is as far as causality extends

Do you know why that is? Because dark energy has nothing to do with how I live my life. It's just an interesting little scientific fact that could be fiction, for all I care. Whereas if I believing that God exists, I have to drop out of college, sell most of my possessions, cut myself off from my family, move out of the city, give up alcohol, caffeine, secular media, masturbation, and sexual thoughts and devote my life 100% to God, because if He does exist, then nothing matters except for Him.

meme/troll detected
>If you want to think a omniscient omnipotent bearded skydaddy in white robes in the shape of a man with a great master plan birth himself in the form of his son to get skewered on a stick because you don't know what caused the big bang, that's kind of retarded.

God is not separate from Physics. The Laws of God and Teachings of the Christ do correspond to natural phenomena. The "sky beard dude" is just you discrediting the idea of God to a limited view of "He is the Abrahamic Christian God I don't like because the way I am conditioned to believe in Him is x y and z"

God as Source is Energy, we all come from the same Cause, which is a lot more simplified than the WHOLE process. We act because we think. We eat because our brain tells us to eat, we sleep because our brain needs to recharge itself. We put clothes on because our brain warns us when we are naked and exposed.

When you spray Ferbreeze, All the particles in the can disperse throughout the whole room. The bottle is the Original Source of All in science and simply God to people who believe in the laws of the Universe (Physics/Spirit), not limited to religious ritual, rather immediate study of the natural and corresponding phenomena.

The spray is us, each individual particle is like a person/object in space, spreading throughout the whole room (earth/universe)

Dude, lay off the weed and shrooms.

I didn't say prove Christ resurrected, I said look for God in the present to prove Himself to you now.

Literally ask, don't demand, just let it work for you.

It isn't about looking at how "religious people convert" because you are looking to stereotypes to help define something that is far greater than it is presented.

>I didn't say prove Christ resurrected, I said look for God in the present to prove Himself to you now.
Literally muh feels. We have higher standards of proof in the modern age

Very High is Infinate.

Every number you calculate can change at any given moment.

You can Google search and get 1million results, but in 20 minutes, now there are 2 million results. Time is always moving forward, and the present moment is always the only period of existing time now, and everything done in the past is going to effect your now, and you choose how you effect your now.

You can choose "everything is limited because I strongly believe in it", you can choose "maybe this guys knows just as much jack shit as I do", you can not respond, you could pee on your computer.

Your choices are up to you

The example isn't fool proof or meant to be taken literally

What this guysaid.

"Muh feels" is dumbfuck tumblrite logic.

>Dude, lay off the weed and shrooms.
This post is the effect of its cause. The post is also a cause, and because of the post - before it, which isn't asking anything too complicated but is a simple way to compare physics with the laws and nature of God and consciousness in general terms.

If someone is religious, you guys say they don't believe in science, and when religious people try to apply science to their religion in reasonable logic, you guys just shut them off with ignorance.

Who is "we" and why do you accept their modes of proof over your own.

All that is being said is that you can't find Mount Everest without getting directions. If you want to find God, you have to be willing to ask.

If you want to dwell on looking for eyewitness accounts of people 2000 years ago and not be satisfied, go for it, but you could look for practical evidence of God working in your life relevant to you right now.

>Very High is Infinate.
No it isnt, it literally absolutely in every conceivable way is not. They are fundamentally different concepts

>Your choices are up to you
And there are a limited number of them

>The example isn't fool proof or meant to be taken literally
Of course its only an estimate, but its probably accurate to within a few orders of magnitude and the point is that it is meaningfully possible to put have a number at all

> theists believe in magical all-powerful god
> but they would kill you if you believe in magical all-powerful god in the sky, but with another name!
So what's the deal? Do the theists just hate most of the Gods?

>Who is "we"
Society in general I like to think, although I know i'm being optimistic

>why do you accept their modes of proof over your own.
They are my own

>God is not separate from Physics.
Why not? There's a hypothesis that the universe is a simulation. If miracles created by God cannot be reconciled with the physics of our universe, it does not preclude his existence due to the possibility that, if he created the universe, the space he exists in could operate under entirely different physical laws. Our universe could be something like a giant fishbowl or pressure chamber.

Any number/calculation can change. Very High is metaphorically Infinite.

In the context of you post, you said Google only has x number, very high not infinite, but that x number is subject to change at any time.

Your choices are not limited, but you can hold on to the belief that they are.

Even if your choices are limited, the effects of the choice you make are limitless. You could belief "I either stay online or go to bed" limiting the other options not yet considered. If you stay online, you have so many different options that even if you calculated every single one, you would eventually choose one to act upon, and events that come next depend on the action, and these events can turn out in many different ways etc etc

People separate themselves with labels of religion and also unintentional language barrier. Some are not willing to accept how Universal God is and is in all their religions.

The observable universe contains a limited number of things and a limited number of interactions between those things. There are not "endless possibilities" there are precisely as many possibilities as their are possible states of the observable universe, and that number is not infinite

Society is not you and attachment to any group of society is not you.

I think these miracles can be explained by physics/metaphysics.

I seen this thing "In the beginning (Time) God ("Source") created the Heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter)" If you ask a Kabbalist, you will see their view of the Abrahamic God is a lot different than the commonly accepted views.

>If you want to think a omniscient omnipotent bearded skydaddy in white robes in the shape of a man with a great master plan birth himself in the form of his son to get skewered on a stick because you don't know what caused the big bang, that's kind of retarded.
But this is retarded. The definition of god is not unexplained mysteries of the universe or the prime mover. At that point the word god becomes meaningless and detached from the original meaning.

There is no limit. Even if there are X AMOUNT of tangible things in the Universe, the course of actions the X AMOUNT of things can take are without number. Particles transform and people change, you can eat a bunch of food and poop a lot or not a lot of food and go to the bathroom once a day.

And then 1 million years from now, the conditions and circumstances are all different and are the effects of all the causes that come before. You control your now, you can choose to believe you are limited by objects, or you could see that everything that seems so solid to you is actually constantly passing away and always transforming.

>There is no limit
There fucking is, the observable universe ( and thus the limit of causal interaction) has a specific size, and a specific number of things in it, which can occupy a specific and finite number of states

I'm not sure why we are arguing about this at all, since we agreed way back that infinite regression doesnt solve the problem of causality anyway

God still means exactly what it does, and the term "God" is limited because people belief their opinions and generalizations of God are the only truth, without accepting anything else.

You hear God, you assume Christian, but then you divide God because Jews, Muslims, and Christians disagree with eachother, saying, these are three different "gods", and someone says "lel I'm Hindu, Eastern god is better" without considering the Eastern God IS the Abrahamic God, and the 3 Abrahamic "gods" are the same God, divided by peoples perception of doctrines rather than held together by the experience of their faith.

You must be willing to be detached from what everyone tells you about God, because God wants to tell you about Himself rather than you hear from Him from everyone else outside of yourself

All these feels and no evidence...

The observable universe implies limited perception, therefore there is an unobservable universe, uncalculated amount more objects, events, numbers, and states, all without definite number.

Infinite causes are metaphorically causeless, in no way is anything to be taken a "this is my upmost statement of fact I am right your opinions are nothing because I am so smart ladidadydaa"

That is all, a difference of opinion. Opinions are without number. It can be calculated as "there are 400 million opinions right now" and accepted as a fact, but! 30 seconds later, there are now 500 trillion opinions right now and we have a new fact to consider.

You think sitting on Veeky Forums complaining about not having evidence is going to bring any new results?

>Infinite causes are metaphorically causeless
They are literally causeless. The very concept of causality requires an original cause to make sense, if there isnt one then the entire chain is based on nothing and is acausal. Infinite regression is just another flavour of no cause and doesnt solve the problem

There are infinite numbers of original causes, and there are calculated numbers and irrational numbers of causes and effects and chains of causes and effects.

You don't need to solve infinity equations because they are full and more than full because there is no capacity and no limit to what you would even begin to form into a formless equation

>There are infinite numbers of original causes
And what caused all those first causes?

It is about the fact that they all can and are identified as effects/causes rather than what caused them,

No its not, either something caused them in which case they are not first causes, or nothing caused them in which case the main axiom of causality is violated

>all these people with a really naive understanding of the big bang
>all these people that don't realize that the universe is more likely 'eternal' than not
>all these people not realizing that time actually has to do with entropy and is only a relational property
>all these people that have never heard of eternal inflation, CCC, loop quantumn gravity, etc

cosmology is above my head, but as i understand it, almost all the currently proposed hypotheses imply no "beginning" of time. The concept of time becomes meaningless at the scale at which quantum gravity becomes relevant, AFAIK.

For the record, the kalam argument relies on naive classical intuitions.

They caused each other is such manner that is logical.

>cosmology is above my head, but as i understand it, almost all the currently proposed hypotheses imply no "beginning" of time
Clearly, since the big bang is universally identified as the start of "time" by cosmologists.

I'll assume though that you meant "reality" and not time, in which case you are less wrong

Every Cause is an Effect, and every Effect is a Cause. It is Karma, it is Action.

Cause and Effect is a Law. If something operate outside of Cause and Effect, it is because of Reason, and that Reason is be Cause of something else.

Causes by definition come before effects. Having two (or more) things cause each other simultaneously is the same as having something cause itself which also violates causality

>Every Cause is an Effect, and every Effect is a Cause
Follow this chain back far enough and the whole system breaks

Everything else you wrote is meaningless bable

The effect of eating food is fullness. You ate because you were hungry. The action is eating.

Now because you ate the food, you are not hungry.

The effect is the cause, and the cause is the effect. They are not different, every effect becomes a cause, every cause is the effect.

They are the same, with the exception that Cause is implied past and Effect is implied present and future

You can always go back and see more infinite amounts of causes and effects.

Karma is Cause and Effect and means Action. The whole process is one whole thing.

This is because of Action.

Be Cause I acted, these are the effects of this action.

Now that I am a witness to the effects of this action, I have cause to act differently in this present reality.

ITT: 2003

Get on with the times granpas, it's now fashionable to inexplicably be a mysandrist.

>The effect of eating food is fullness. You ate because you were hungry. The action is eating. Now because you ate the food, you are not hungry.

Thats a simple directional chain of causality, an original cause having effects which cause further effects

>You can always go back and see more infinite amounts of causes and effects.
This is the same as having no cause, which violates causality

>>they believe that an invisible, intangible substance called "Dark Energy" composes 95% of the universe's mass
user this something is confirmed real because the expansion of the universe is real.

There is no original cause, there is always one more cause in the infinite chain user. That is why we always found something new about the world.

> expansion into where exactly?
> into heaven of Gods probably
get rekt atheists, your science is trash

Original cause is the effect of countless causes before it.

Infinite causes is causeless and not causeless. Infinite causes is not the same as no cause at all, because no cause means there is no effect, and the effects that come from infinite causes are all identified. No cause, no classification

The universe isnt expanding into where its just expanding we dont why dark energy is making it expand but it just is you dumb faggot.

>There is no original cause
Then causality is violated

>Original cause is the effect of countless causes before it
Then it isnt original

lel, I can't see God, so he doesn't exist, get rekt christians, your theology is trash

To expand you need a space into where you can expand and that space is realm of God.

And if you counted back all the way to the Original Cause, then there would be more infinite causes before, until you reach the Original Cause, and all the causes before.

All is in infinity loop and still not outside of cause and effect. It only violates causality because we are taught that defining things is the only way to believe, when really the laws that operate on this subject are much higher than we will ever explain

> Then causality is violated
It's other way around, if there is something without a cause like original cause then causality is violated. With infinity causes that are cause each other like infinitely, nothing is truly violated.

You can see God, he is Jesus and you see him in pictures.

There is no North America in the Bible so the Bible is not true fucking christian retard.

user if you are seeing things it means your brains need to get checked.

pfft, I bet he couldn't even win against a second rate war god

There is America in Book of Mormon, which is next level explanation.

Circular causality is the only thing that seems to hold the logic of causality intact, but i massively begs the question of why whole chain exists at all

Its violated either way, which is the point

...

>The universe IS the Effect of a Cause because nothing is outside of Cause and Effect.

Atomic decay.

That image is highly upsetting