What does Veeky Forums think of Mr. Money Mustache?

It's not easy but it is simple, that's what it means.

Yes it's cliche but it's completely true. When you want something bad enough you find a way, if you don't - you find an excuse

This
Its simple to get fit, you just follow a fit lifestyle, its hard, but simple.

You want to get rich? Spend your time devoted to that cause, won't be easy, but you will likely achieve your goal.

He is saying most people want something, but do not put the time and effort into it that is needed.

Are you people fucking retarded? There's no false hope about it, it's literally just "Save and invest until you have about 25x your yearly expenses invested and you can retire. Decrease your yearly expenses and that 25x number becomes a lot smaller."

At the peak of his career he was making, I believe, about 100k while his wife wasn't working.

He and his wife retired at 30, now 12 years later, neither one has worked a single day. Oh, and his networth is somewhere north of 10 million dollars.

Tell me, what about that is wrong? Go ahead, you fucking cuckolds.

Did you read his blog? He earned a lot more than $100k

He mentioned in 1 post about refinancing his home that he asked for a substantial raise at work instead of a yearly bonus and was granted it without question.

The guy literally had people throw money at him for his entire career.

You need to lose the boner

>He earned a lot more than $100k
I'd really like to see a post saying that, because to the best of my memory he wasn't earning "$200,000-$400,000" a year as a newbie engineer in fucking 1999.

Again, I don't ever remember reading about him asking for a substantial raise.

On top of that, regardless of his circumstances, please tell me what's wrong about his math. How is it incorrect to 1) minimize living expenses and 2) save and invest as fast as you can so you can retire extremely early? What part of this do you doubt?

>I'd really like to see a post saying that
Then look for his post about refinancing you literal faggot.

My initial post in this topic sums up what's 'wrong' with his math. It's irrelevant to 99%'ers.

>Concept of a 'living wage' (let's assume $20k)
>Large number of people are literally within arms reach of that wage (perhaps earning up to $30k)
>So if they live in literal poverty, they'll be able to save $10k per year
>25 x yearly expenses (20k) = $500,000
>$500,000 / $10,000 saved per year = 50 years
Wow, my mind is literally blown. All 99%'ers need to do is work for 50 years in abject poverty in order to retire into abject poverty

Compound interest is a huge factor. So here, 21 years assuming you NEVER get an increase in salary, NEVER get any windfalls, and NEVER open new income streams.

So even in the absolutely disgusting hypothetical of working this dead end job for 21 years after graduating from college, you can retire. At age 43. About 30 years before your average lawyer, doctor, engineer, etc.

Also, his family's yearly expenses are right around what you put for a single person living in "abject poverty". I think last year they spent around $24,000 for three people.

>It's irrelevant to 99%'ers.
The only way I'd agree to this is by saying yeah, most people are fucking retarded and live way beyond their means. I know a good handful of people, all of dramatically different income levels, all living literally paycheck to paycheck. They're never more than 2 weeks from complete financial ruin, from the guy earning about 15 grand at a gas station to the account earning somewhere around 80k.

I think it's unfair to say that retiring early is "irrelevant" just because people are stupid.

>Assume 7% no-risk average returns
>Still need to work for 21 years

You can actually make quite a few assumptions to the model my Veeky Forums friend. You can assume he/she gets shitty raises just like you can assume the cost of living will raise. You can certainly also assume he/she collects some windfalls or even breaks out into a $100k job.

It doesn't change the fact that MMM's advice is legit for the 1%'ers who are content to live like the 99%'ers and not particularly helpful for those actual 99%'ers

His family expenses will be low because he has no overhead that I recall - owns a home, rental income pays the other one, owns a car, so essentially he needs to buy food, clothing and medical expenses. That's a luxury people in 'abject poverty' don't have my good friend.

Hold up.

Had my wires crossed.

I was thinking of Financial Samurai, not MMM.

Holy internet fail

Long term returns of the S&P500 are closer to 8%; picking 7% is *extremely* conservative in the long run.

Okay let's just say, hypothetically, you're right. Saving and investing are completely stupid for a 99%er to do. Then what? Sh-

Oh. I've heard of financial samurai but I have no idea what his methods are. I'm guessing he did about the same thing as mmm?

>Okay let's just say, hypothetically, you're right. Saving and investing are completely stupid for a 99%er to do. Then what? Sh-
If I were to continue with the debate...

99%'ers need to keep living expenses to a minimum while striving to not exist in abject poverty. The fundamentals of MMM and other frugal people is valid, yet my objection is that it's literally not practical for many people.

Admittedly at the time of my response I was thinking of Financial Samurai who did indeed blog about earning $300k p/y and how he lived frugally to retire after 10 years or whatever. MMM is different, yet similar. Same message applies, just difference wealth class to start with.

I don't think it's beneficial for someone to live in poverty for even 10 years just to try and get a bit ahead. If THAT is what it takes to move slightly up in wealth class, it's simply not practical.

The better alternative is somewhere in between. Live 'well', and try to save a modest amount for a rainy day. Accept the idea of retiring early is for those who earn enough to make it happen and try to make it happen yourself without sacrificing a comfortable existence.

As I mentioned in one of my first posts, I'm 32, own a $400,000 home outright. I can live on about $20k yet I continue to earn at or over $100k. For someone like me, it's realistic to save 80% of my income because I'm real comfortable doing so. I don't ever think twice before buying things I want, I just don't particularly want much.

But if I were 32, renting a scummy apartment in Detroit with no savings and earning less than $15p/h, I need more than tips of 'living frugal'

>But if I were 32, renting a scummy apartment in Detroit with no savings and earning less than $15p/h
Then you fucked up so bad in life you can hardly blame some extremely solid advice for being "insufficient". Hell, whether you fucked up or life fucked you is not even relevant at that point.

The advice is solid. If you're in that position you will never live "well", you can only survive. So you survive in even more abject poverty than you thought you could handle. You do everything you can for every extra buck and you never for a second take your mind off earning enough to get out of there.

You save every last fucking penny and invest everything you have into earning more. This is how nearly everyone coming out of poverty got to being comfortable or even rich. Rappers, movie stars and other exceptions prove the rule. And this is precisely why those who clawed their way from poverty fucking HATE those who look to be the next 50 cent while avoiding the gut wrenching sacrifices they really need to make to get there.

We're in agreement that the advice is helpful for those who are in a financial position to follow it.

I never really support the idea that poor people should invest every spare penny. The money is more important to them if WISELY used to improve current circumstance, rather than put away in the hopes that circumstances change after 10+ years.

I give the same advice to college kids who come here to ask where to invest their spare $50 per week. I find it retarded to be so poor and to put money into long-term investment when it's more beneficial now.

My view of when it's 'right' for people to invest is very conservative. They need to have money literally falling out of their pockets.

He owned a home and rental outright by the age of like 28 and had like 400k in cash as well. This guy wasn't making just 100k a year.

Anybody doubting the math behind this should just read this post of his: mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

It's pretty much the most basic, high-level explanation of how and why early retirement works.

>earn ~$100k/yr for 6-8 years
>own a probably $300k home outright, $30k car, another $400k in investments
If that's true, then yeah he probably was earning a little over $100k toward the end of his career. He also built the house himself, so I dunno if it's accurate to say it cost nearly $300k.

The fundamental points still stand, save and invest and you can retire ridiculously early.

>I never really support the idea that poor people should invest every spare penny.
True, yes you are absolutely right that's a bad idea. That's why it's common practice (MMM recommends it, /r/PersonalFinance too) to save up 3-9 months of living expenses as an emergency fund. AFTER you have that, then start investing as much as you can.

>My view of when it's 'right' for people to invest is very conservative. They need to have money literally falling out of their pockets.
That mentality is why most middle class Americans are working until their late 60s or early 70s, rather than retiring in their 30s like you should.

I just want you to consider the "3-9 month emergency fund, then invest all excess cash" plan. Once you have several months of living covered, guaranteed, what's the risk in investing all leftover income?

Also,
>do every fucking thing you can to improve your situation, get out of poverty, get out of the middle class, get out of wage slavery
This is the mentality I have.

Maybe to other people it's not worth it (or they *think* it's not worth it) but I will be extremely disappointed in myself if I'm not totally financially independent in my 30s.

Financial security and the ability to just waltz out of a job I hate are FAR more valuable to me than buying the newest iPhone and driving a huge lifted truck.

Ultimately I think it comes down to how secure you are with yourself. I don't give a fuck if people make fun of me for having a $30 phone or driving a Mazda 3 rather than a BMW. Going out clubbing every weekend sounds awful to me; that several hundred dollars a week would bring me much more happiness invested or used pursuing hobbies, rather than getting drunk.

And if it ever gets to the point that someone says "You're a loser", they'll still have to go to work the next day but I will be free.

Biz hates these types of people because most people on here are tied to their flashy things they want to do with their neetbucks. Also they have a hard time understanding compound interest.

Learn to find happiness outside of new cars, fine dining every day, and the newest consumer bullshit and most people will be suprised at how much they actually need to spend isn't all that much. I'm not saying live like a monk or anything but I don't want to work until im 60 so FIRE makes a lot of sense to me.

>I don't want to work until im 60 so FIRE makes a lot of sense to me.
This.

A guy I know drives a lifted Jeep, has a motorcycle, goes out to eat almost every day, and is constantly floating near $0 in his checking account. Also he makes less than 30 grand a year. I tried to point out to him, "maybe you should try to spend less money, maybe sell the Jeep and motorcycle and get a more fuel efficient Civic or 3 or something" and that idea was, to him, almost offensive. I *need* my Jeep. I *need* my motorcycle. If I don't have them I'll be *unhappy*.

Really? You'll be unhappy if you don't have those? But being constantly stressed out and UNHAPPY because you're living paycheck to paycheck is okay?

I don't know how to convince people like that. Showing them the facts won't change their mind. Using logic is met with a brick wall. You can't use emotion to influence them because they're already emotionally attached to the things they buy. I feel like some people are just destined to be poor and financially dependent on someone else for their entire lives.

>what's the risk in investing all leftover income?
Other than standard risk of the market, it's also the opportunity cost. That's why I feel you need to be earning more than $30k-$50k to bother with investing. Even when looking at compounded returns of 7-10%, if you're only putting away $50 per week it's a fuckload of not much for the first decade. Someone who just enjoys that $50 each week and then progresses further into their career to a point where they can sacrifice $500 per week to invest will take a while to catch up, but they didn't need to make saving and investing so boring

Yea man working at a credit union when I was younger and dealing with the poor and and "rich" people who were living paycheck to paycheck lit a fire under my ass to not end up like that. Guys making 90k a year with a fucking 50k truck loan at 10% interest pissing and moaning that they can't make payments on time in a low as fuck cost of living area with their wives spending all their extra money on the side.

Nah that doesn't sound like living to me.

Even at those income levels you should invest, even more so if your company matches a percentage. Seriously man you don't want to end up retired having to wait in line for your SSI check every month and then immediately put it towards bills. It's some sad shit to see my friend.

It comes down to a trade off. Would you rather have $37,000 at the end of 10 years, or get a couple meals (which aren't even healthy) eating out each week?

Like said, I've seen the results of people ignoring their finances, buying things they can't afford, and living beyond their means. In 100% of cases I've personally witnessed, it ends poorly or VERY poorly, especially as people get older.

To be frank I doubt either of us will do anything to convince the other. That way of thinking, living paycheck to paycheck, just doesn't make any sense to me at all, just like how my way of thinking sounds ridiculous to you.

Different approaches to life, I suppose. I'm cautious. Mortgage rates in my area are around 4% so I viewed avoiding that interest as a better choice than investing with the potential to earn 8% of taxable income on top of my already high tax rate - which might mean I walk away with a 5% return.

That's only 1% difference in financial position, yet one of the approaches has 0 risk. How much is 0 risk worth?

Investing might not earn 8% or might earn more... from experience when I DID have some Vanguard funds, they returned closer to 2% for the entire 2 years I held them before cashing out... that's 2% total... not 2% per year). Some funds dipped, some grew, some evened out to no change.

I certainly don't live paycheck to paycheck. My stance this entire time has been people who do so should not worry themselves with investing. I survive quite comfortably on 20% of my income. I'm in a position where I can have a couple of meals out each week and still put away $5,000 per month without noticing it's gone. Compared to someone who seriously needs to debate if they can afford that meal vs 'investing', I'd say they'd feel a lot better about themselves if they enjoyed the evening meal rather than stashing that money away in the hopes it will compound into millions. No one seems to factor 'enjoyment' into finance. I know exactly what makes mathematical sense but that's not always the path.

>When you want something bad enough you find a way, if you don't - you find an excuse
This is some serious bullshit. There are plenty of things in life that CANNOT be gotten just by "wanting them bad enough." We're not 8 years old dreaming of being cowboys. The stars are not within your reach if only your imagination stretched that far.

In the real world, people are not all the same. Some are smart; most are dumb. Some are talented; most are not. Some are pretty; most are meh. You cannot change the hand you're dealt. If you didn't get dealt the right card, you're not gonna bluff your way into a huge pot. Because someone smarter, better, and more gifted is gonna take it first.

Harsh reality, I know. Really a bummer if you got bad cards.

So what do you do about it? Two options:

1. Accept it. Accept reality. Learn to make the most of your situation, whatever it is.

or

2. Tell yourself lies to make yourself feel better. "I have the life I want." "I'm not rich because I want other things more." "Being accepted is the same as being pretty." It's complete bullshit, but some people apparently like the taste.

That comic is beyond retarded. Just came here to say that.

What a stupid comic.
The reason people suck at achieving goals is because their animal instincts are more powerful than their rational mind.
It has nothing to do with people actually wanting to waste their time on stupid shit, it's just that people can't override their animal brain for extended periods of time.
It's like telling a heroin addict that they must love being a heroin addict, because they keep doing heroin.

Your entire view shows clearly you have no idea what it's like to be poor, or how these people live.

Your idea of being poor is the equivalent of student life. You live on little money, spend what you have to live as comfortably as you can, and suck it up until it's over because you'll be earning plenty in the foreseeable future.

For a student investing $50 a week makes no sense. They are, as you say, better off waiting for more income. Wouldn't want to miss out on muh college experience!!1!1!

For a 32 yo living in fucking Detroit of all places that is the dumbest advice ever. They will stay where they are and as broke as they are until retirement, when they have nothing saved. THIS is the reality of it you schmuck.

You save that 50 a week. You get a second job on the weekends so you can save 200 a week more. You use every penny to earn more pennies. Nobody said stocks necessarily either, use the money to set up a side business of some kind. Earn more. Save more. Learn a trade, become a welder for example, move out of detroit and save more. Every. Last. Penny.

That's the only way you go from broke at $15 an hour in Detroit to living in a paid off house in suburbia 10 years later plotting how you can actually retire at 50-60, pay for your kids college and maybe actually enjoy life in a meaningful way beyond getting drunk once a week to numb the pain.

God damn it user, it's people like you that give credibility to the white privilege meme.

Aside from the shameless advertising..

I want to know how many articles he's lifted out of our frugal threads before this board took a total nose dive over the last six months

Then, I want my royalty check

potayto, potahto. The rational mind is just our animal instincts with a sense of time.

Just checked and probably welder isn't the best example, although with an average pay of $17 an hour it's not bad.

But let's use the example given of $15 an hour. Assuming you are both not a complete idiot and simultaneously never manage to earn more, getting a weekend job you should easily be able to save $1k a month.

$1k a month compounded with 5% yearly interest adds up to $150k after 10 years. With that money you can either outright buy a house and cut your living costs to the point $15 an hour is actually comfortable or you can invest this in various meaningful ways to earn more than that every year.

10 years of suffering > lifetime of mediocre poverty and miserable retirement.

This whole debate comes down to what fundamental values a person has.

Some people put FREEDOM on pedestal - and they are able to sacrifice comfort for it.

Most of the people however prefer COMFORT and PLEASURE - and they are fine sacrificing 8h of their lives till they are old.

We all die in the end anyway, so don't shit on each other fellas.

I gotta say, I think you're giving those kids bad advice. the reason is, when those kids graduate and get good jobs, there will be a time when they're living with roommates and taking the bus to work but having 500$ instead of 50$ left over every month. When that moment comes, they'll either go, "Look at all this money, I'd better spend it" or "Look at all this money, I'd better invest it". And it's the habits they formed when putting away an extra 50$ was a struggle that will determine how they react.

Now I don't disagree that investing in your health is about the highest return investment there is, but most of that doesn't require money. I ate a lot of vegetables through a farm share even when I was a student and it never broke the bank. jogging and drinking water instead of pop costs nothing at all.

I read a lot of MMM information years ago and took on some of his advice.

Some of the best learning points is to learn new skills.

I follow a similar lifestyle to him but for a different reason - I am 30 years old and I do not believe that pensions when I retire will be comparable to what they are like today.

The amount of people living with no savings is increasing each generation. More people will be dependant upon the government for their old age and that will result in increased taxation to fund it.

>Some of the best learning points is to learn new skills.
You mean shit like DIY carpentry?