I see people say they didn't happen, others say they did but are greatly exaggerated, and I've even seen people say that advancement was halted by the Renaissance.
So was there a marked regression in civilization after the fall of Rome?
As a bonus question, how big a role did the Church play in all of this?
The reason it's such a meme topic is because a lot of us remember being teenage atheist libertarians swapping around that one picture claiming that the dark ages was this absolute, massive gap in technological development until the Italian renaissance hit. It was sort of accepted as fact by a lot of people who just want to troll Christians or promote anti-religious ideology.
There was definitely a significant period that held of lack of large centralized government after the fall of the Western Roman Empire since it was mostly barbarian kings and shit. That was the dark age. Church stayed though, just a lot less powerful. Was the opposite of anti-intellectual though, they were some of the main sources of book preservation, copying, and writing. Some people might say Christianity contributed to the fall of the Romans, but the barbarians did way fucking more to ruin everything. If anything, it was those godless pagans raping innocent Roman qts and flinging their shit all over burning temples that led to the period of heavy decline and relative "darkness".
Around when the H>R>E was established shit pretty much got back into development AFAIK
Aiden Hill
The Germanic invaders who destroyed Rome in the end were mostly Christian.
Ryan Perez
Where to start with this wilful imbecility?
The curtain of the Dark Ages fell across the society of antiquity, it covered a civilization paralyzed in the East, shattered in the West; trade now at a standstill; learning forgotten, agriculture devastated.
that the once-war-like Romans would do little but cringe before successive waves of Germanic, Arab, and Scandinavian invaders. Sunk in poverty, tyranny, and ignorance, the West was not to rise again for centuries.
Zachary Murphy
thanks jesus
Brandon Hughes
The problem is what made Rome great was its civil engineering and industry, neither of which could be maintained by either the barbarians or the Church making its preservation of stagnant Roman knowledge and law not that impressive.
Grayson Evans
The Romans weren't exactly known for their scientific and technological advancements, however the complete societal collapse that took place in Western Europe at the time was very real. Decentralization and deurbanization throughout late anquitity is what gave way for early feudal societies to take hold where there were gaps in power left by the collapsing empire.
Elijah Lee
>So was there a marked regression in civilization after the fall of Rome? Well, yeah, the empire collapsed. Of course.
First of all, you had a lot of barbarians. From germans to steppe fags, which believed pretty much everything.. And those germanics were arians. Niceean germanics were chummy with the Empire and the Church.
Leo White
Between civil wars, catastrophic plagues and famines, mismanagement and corruption, desertification, crop failure, and the silting of harbors, Rome was already in the Dark Age by the time the barbarians came in and put it out of its lingering misery.
Jose Stewart
>others say they did but are greatly exaggerated These ones are correct.
Luke Ward
The Dark Ages happened. But they also ended with the rise of the Holy Roman Empire. And the high middle ages was a more advanced time than the Renaissance in allot of ways, which was actually quite reactionary and regressive in just about everything except art.
Basically 14th century learning hit the point just prior to 17th century natural philosophy and science, and the period between those two centuries was 75% recovering what was lost from the 13th and 14th centuries in the 15th century.
Jonathan Gomez
>And the high middle ages was a more advanced time than the Renaissance in allot of ways, which was actually quite reactionary and regressive in just about everything except art.
Can you elaborate on this? What happened?
Austin Brooks
I think you're conflating some various issues with the dark ages. Basically, many modern historians dislike the term "dark ages" because some people broadly misunderstand it to mean a particularly regressive era of suffering and oppression. The darkness of the dark ages actually refers to the relative scarcity of written sources dating from that period, making it somewhat more opaque (or "dark") to historians. This is why the term "early middle ages" tends to be preferred now.
As for the church's involvement, I think it's pretty safe to say that the church is one of the main driving forces behind a resurgence in written sources by the high middle ages. Essentially, they deserve a good deal of credit for their part in bringing Europe out of the "dark ages." The disintegration of the Roman Empire and the relative illiteracy of the invading tribal peoples is more to blame than anything Christianity did.
Jaxson Thompson
The Albigensian Crusade and the persecution of the Knights Templar.
Hunter Parker
The resurgence of science and writing in the "high" middles ages coincides with the introduction of Arabic numerals and translations of Aristotle preserved by muslim scholars
interesting....
Juan Sanders
The dark ages never stopped.
Thomas Richardson
Cause is one of those terms used by Anglos who think that everyone follows their logic.
Henry Ward
Yeah is was the barbarians fault, not the Romans for treating them like sub humans
This. Would the people who lived in ''the dark ages'' ever realise? ofcourse not, they'd assume they're doing good, that theirs is the best generation to ever be. Just like we do today.
The dark ages began with civilization, not the fall of the roman empire.
Dylan Evans
kek
we wuz enlightenment
Liam Jenkins
Living amid the ruins of the Roman empire might have been a clue
Kevin Allen
The answer, perhaps unsurprisingly, is somewhere in the middle.
Christcucks will have you believe there was a golden age of Christendom full of scientific advancement. Atheistfags will have you believe we'd be living on Mars by now if it hadn't been for those damn Christians.
Christianity preserved some ancient texts, and enabled some scientific advancement but in turn stamped out other texts and stifled some advancement. The idea of people being Pagan's today is laughed at, but only because Christians ensured we'd end up know next to nothing about Paganism.
Nicholas Nguyen
I have never seen anyone past or present state theirs is the best generation, only priests and such claiming the sky is falling and constantly scolding and guilt tripping everyone.
Noah Perez
nice meme, Arabs contributed a lot to mathematics
Nicholas Baker
People had an idea living in post-roman Europe that something great had come before them, due to the ancient and classical ruins around them. However, a common assumption was that they were Gods creation or even in some cases, that a magical race had lived there previously, possibly elves or giants.
Anthony Ortiz
Trade at a standstill - wut? Learning forgotten - wut? Agriculture devastated - wut?
The barbarians at the gates meme? Wut?
M8 do some fucking reading. I suggest starting with Chris Wickham 'Framing the Early Middle Ages 400-800' (Oxford, 2006) and Michael McCormick's 'Origins of the European Economy: Communications and Commerce AD 300-900' (Cambridge, 2001).
Then maybe you will stop propagating the same idiotic, ill-informed memery you seem to think you are refuting.
t. DPhil Late Antiquity
Cameron Nelson
I like Roman architecture a lot but much of it just didn't work north of the Alps.
They tried that open style again during the early years of the Renaissance but quickly dropped that again when they realized freezing their balls of and catching pneumonia wasn't worth it. If I were living in Northern France or England I would pic pic related over a roman urban villa anyday.
Evan Morgan
They actually wuz though. You can argue how much influence there was but you can't argue that they didn't contribute.
Jace Harris
Britain went from great bricked Roman villas, Mausoleums, Temples, Ampitheatres and Forts to most people living in essentially mud huts. Even pottery is very rare - most people went back to using wood or leaves for cooking. Pottery that is found is of poor, primitive quality - a vast reversal from the beautiful Roman Samian ware. Literature is almost non existant, especially in the Early period. Coins become much rarer and more primitive.
Isaac Perez
>persecution of knights templar >Renaissance
How about you open a fucking book
Anthony Gutierrez
The urban organization the romans had was destroyed because the whole system collapsed, except maybe in italy. The cities in France lost a lot of population because scarcity. Hell, in lyon people started to live only inthe circus because there was no one left
Oliver Young
gotta paint those statues
Andrew Young
Oh yeah it's not as if that event couldn't have repercussions a century down the line.
Nolan Adams
And what repercussions on the renaissance are we talking about exactly ?
Jonathan Green
didn't they win? How could they be sub if they won?