So did the dark ages happen or not?

I see people say they didn't happen, others say they did but are greatly exaggerated, and I've even seen people say that advancement was halted by the Renaissance.

So was there a marked regression in civilization after the fall of Rome?

As a bonus question, how big a role did the Church play in all of this?

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The reason it's such a meme topic is because a lot of us remember being teenage atheist libertarians swapping around that one picture claiming that the dark ages was this absolute, massive gap in technological development until the Italian renaissance hit. It was sort of accepted as fact by a lot of people who just want to troll Christians or promote anti-religious ideology.

There was definitely a significant period that held of lack of large centralized government after the fall of the Western Roman Empire since it was mostly barbarian kings and shit. That was the dark age. Church stayed though, just a lot less powerful. Was the opposite of anti-intellectual though, they were some of the main sources of book preservation, copying, and writing. Some people might say Christianity contributed to the fall of the Romans, but the barbarians did way fucking more to ruin everything. If anything, it was those godless pagans raping innocent Roman qts and flinging their shit all over burning temples that led to the period of heavy decline and relative "darkness".

Around when the H>R>E was established shit pretty much got back into development AFAIK

The Germanic invaders who destroyed Rome in the end were mostly Christian.

Where to start with this wilful imbecility?

The curtain of the Dark Ages fell across the society of antiquity, it covered a civilization paralyzed in the East, shattered in the West; trade now at a standstill; learning forgotten, agriculture devastated.

that the once-war-like Romans would do little but cringe before successive waves of Germanic, Arab, and Scandinavian invaders. Sunk in poverty, tyranny, and ignorance, the West was not to rise again for centuries.

thanks jesus

The problem is what made Rome great was its civil engineering and industry, neither of which could be maintained by either the barbarians or the Church making its preservation of stagnant Roman knowledge and law not that impressive.

The Romans weren't exactly known for their scientific and technological advancements, however the complete societal collapse that took place in Western Europe at the time was very real. Decentralization and deurbanization throughout late anquitity is what gave way for early feudal societies to take hold where there were gaps in power left by the collapsing empire.

>So was there a marked regression in civilization after the fall of Rome?
Well, yeah, the empire collapsed.
Of course.

First of all, you had a lot of barbarians.
From germans to steppe fags, which believed pretty much everything..
And those germanics were arians.
Niceean germanics were chummy with the Empire and the Church.

Between civil wars, catastrophic plagues and famines, mismanagement and corruption, desertification, crop failure, and the silting of harbors, Rome was already in the Dark Age by the time the barbarians came in and put it out of its lingering misery.

>others say they did but are greatly exaggerated
These ones are correct.

The Dark Ages happened. But they also ended with the rise of the Holy Roman Empire. And the high middle ages was a more advanced time than the Renaissance in allot of ways, which was actually quite reactionary and regressive in just about everything except art.

Basically 14th century learning hit the point just prior to 17th century natural philosophy and science, and the period between those two centuries was 75% recovering what was lost from the 13th and 14th centuries in the 15th century.

>And the high middle ages was a more advanced time than the Renaissance in allot of ways, which was actually quite reactionary and regressive in just about everything except art.

Can you elaborate on this? What happened?

I think you're conflating some various issues with the dark ages. Basically, many modern historians dislike the term "dark ages" because some people broadly misunderstand it to mean a particularly regressive era of suffering and oppression. The darkness of the dark ages actually refers to the relative scarcity of written sources dating from that period, making it somewhat more opaque (or "dark") to historians. This is why the term "early middle ages" tends to be preferred now.

As for the church's involvement, I think it's pretty safe to say that the church is one of the main driving forces behind a resurgence in written sources by the high middle ages. Essentially, they deserve a good deal of credit for their part in bringing Europe out of the "dark ages." The disintegration of the Roman Empire and the relative illiteracy of the invading tribal peoples is more to blame than anything Christianity did.

The Albigensian Crusade and the persecution of the Knights Templar.

The resurgence of science and writing in the "high" middles ages coincides with the introduction of Arabic numerals and translations of Aristotle preserved by muslim scholars

interesting....

The dark ages never stopped.

Cause is one of those terms used by Anglos who think that everyone follows their logic.

Yeah is was the barbarians fault, not the Romans for treating them like sub humans

>implying they weren't

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis
No, they did not happen; they were faked by the Pope, the Emperor, and the other Emperor.

This.
Would the people who lived in ''the dark ages'' ever realise? ofcourse not, they'd assume they're doing good, that theirs is the best generation to ever be.
Just like we do today.

The dark ages began with civilization, not the fall of the roman empire.

kek

we wuz enlightenment

Living amid the ruins of the Roman empire might have been a clue

The answer, perhaps unsurprisingly, is somewhere in the middle.

Christcucks will have you believe there was a golden age of Christendom full of scientific advancement. Atheistfags will have you believe we'd be living on Mars by now if it hadn't been for those damn Christians.

Christianity preserved some ancient texts, and enabled some scientific advancement but in turn stamped out other texts and stifled some advancement. The idea of people being Pagan's today is laughed at, but only because Christians ensured we'd end up know next to nothing about Paganism.

I have never seen anyone past or present state theirs is the best generation, only priests and such claiming the sky is falling and constantly scolding and guilt tripping everyone.

nice meme, Arabs contributed a lot to mathematics

People had an idea living in post-roman Europe that something great had come before them, due to the ancient and classical ruins around them. However, a common assumption was that they were Gods creation or even in some cases, that a magical race had lived there previously, possibly elves or giants.

Trade at a standstill - wut? Learning forgotten - wut? Agriculture devastated - wut?

The barbarians at the gates meme? Wut?

M8 do some fucking reading. I suggest starting with Chris Wickham 'Framing the Early Middle Ages 400-800' (Oxford, 2006) and Michael McCormick's 'Origins of the European Economy: Communications and Commerce AD 300-900' (Cambridge, 2001).

Then maybe you will stop propagating the same idiotic, ill-informed memery you seem to think you are refuting.

t. DPhil Late Antiquity

I like Roman architecture a lot but much of it just didn't work north of the Alps.

They tried that open style again during the early years of the Renaissance but quickly dropped that again when they realized freezing their balls of and catching pneumonia wasn't worth it. If I were living in Northern France or England I would pic pic related over a roman urban villa anyday.

They actually wuz though. You can argue how much influence there was but you can't argue that they didn't contribute.

Britain went from great bricked Roman villas, Mausoleums, Temples, Ampitheatres and Forts to most people living in essentially mud huts. Even pottery is very rare - most people went back to using wood or leaves for cooking. Pottery that is found is of poor, primitive quality - a vast reversal from the beautiful Roman Samian ware. Literature is almost non existant, especially in the Early period. Coins become much rarer and more primitive.

>persecution of knights templar
>Renaissance

How about you open a fucking book

The urban organization the romans had was destroyed because the whole system collapsed, except maybe in italy. The cities in France lost a lot of population because scarcity. Hell, in lyon people started to live only inthe circus because there was no one left

gotta paint those statues

Oh yeah it's not as if that event couldn't have repercussions a century down the line.

And what repercussions on the renaissance are we talking about exactly ?

didn't they win? How could they be sub if they won?