God created Man in his image

It's not that he can't, it's that he doesn't. God is the ultimate deadbeat dad.

>can't
It's "won't"
How about you just be good of your own will if Heaven's that important you
Literally nothing stopping you except your own choices
You have the ability to choose to not be shit you know

Don't talk about Dad like that.

Why does God deserve all of the praise when good things happen but none of the blame when bad things happen?

Not necessarily that he causes it, but if something negative were to happen that I could have prevented but did not, am I not complicit?

>trying to make sense of abrahamic religions

Don't even bother. The desert heat created some fucked up thought processes.

oh my child how little you understand.

I tip my tip to thine worldly wisdom, monsieur

If it's "won't" and not "can't", then God chooses evil to exist, since he just as easily could have chosen otherwise and still maintained free will. In which case God isn't all good.

He lets us choose for ourselves
It's called delegating
Standard practice in an enterprise this big
There's what 7 billion of us, that's a lot of work for one god

No actually. For example a person who fails to prevent a robbery is not guilty of a crime.

Permitting something is not the same as actively willing it.

>7 billion of us, that's a lot of work for one god
>Implying God didn't create the Aliens

Okay, but if it is possible for a man to do so safely and with a one-hundred-percent guarantee of success, yet he does not and others suffer as a result, did he do the right thing?

The person who failed to prevent the robbery didn't create the robber with absolute 100% certainty that he would rob people.

>Permitting something is not the same as actively willing it.
Where does omniscience fit into this? God knew which people would commit genocide and where/how they'd do it, if he didn't then why is he called God?

You can go to jail if you don't save people when you're able to

Do what?

>Equating legality with morality
>Living in a Euroshit country where you're required to intervene

>he wants to live in a country where people don't help each other

Even if that person did know the robber was going to rob, the robber is still the one choosing to rob.

God knows everything and allows people to act on their will.

God saves all who want to be saved.

People do help each other. We're just not legally required to do it.

>Even if that person did know the robber was going to rob, the robber is still the one choosing to rob.
I am trying to figure out how you can think like this, but I just can't. If God is the omniscient creator then he is the start of all chains of events. He knows with absolute certainty what will happen before he does anything. How is he not at fault for creating people that murder and steal? He also creates the conditions that make them the way they are. He creates their brains that make them believe that these things are good ideas. If I trained a dog to attack people, would I not be at fault when the dog killed someone? The dog still has free will, but I conditioned him to act a certain way.

Ikr

Requiring people to do good deeds at the threat of punishment if they don't? Nuts amirite ;^)

Does God know though? Or does he simultaneously know every possible future you might choose, but it's still up to you to choose

He created Man in his image, but my understanding is that original sin is supposed to have messed things up.

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (or take the bait) and assume you really couldn't understand what I am implying:

If I were to go to a store and a guy pulled a gun on the cashier. Immediately, though some freak occurrence, I have two visions that occur immediately in the span of a few milliseconds:
>In the first:
I freeze and watch the events unfold: the robber grabs the money and the cashier tries to be brave and fight him to which the robber panics and shoots the cashier. He immediately leaves with the money and I live.
>In the second:
I hit the robber over the back of the head with something I'm holding as he is reaching for the money and he passes out, only to be arrested later and serves time for his crime and nothing bad ever happens from that point forward.

The visions are so vivid that I know with absolute certainty that the events in both will come true depending on the action I take. Of my own free will I choose the first path, the cashier dies and the robber gets away. Did I do the right thing?

>Does God know though?
If he doesn't then he isn't all knowing by definition.

>does he simultaneously know every possible future you might choose
If every future is potential and he knows them all, he knows everything

You didn't commit a crime.

What are you not getting here? If you toss a coin you know that it's either going to land heads up or tails up. That doesn't make you omniscient. Omniscience would require knowledge of all possible futures as well as the ability to tell what the actual future would be.

That isn't what I asked. Did I do the right thing?

the fall happens after man is created in god's image. they're unrelated

god doesn't punish man anyway, he punishes sin, it just happens to be in man. but he punishes satan as well, the origin of sin. god wants to save man

What are you not getting here?
Future doesn't exist yet, mate, it's an abstract concept
Hence why it's called future
How can God know something that does not exist?

>requiring people to do good deeds

reminder that catholics are apostates

God created the world without sin although the potential for sin existed. Adam choose to sin which created the current fallen state that we're in. God didn't "train" Adam to sin.

Define "right."

>he just as easily could have chosen otherwise and still maintained free will. In which case God isn't all good.

untrue. god is good which is why one should choose good (god) over evil

>How can God know something that does not exist?
Because he's omniscient. You cannot be omniscient if you lack knowledge of any one thing.
The definition is very simple
Omniscient: Knowing everything

Judaeo-Christian right. The thing God would expect of us. As in, on the day of Judgement, He would be pleased with and support my actions as having done the right thing.

God is omniscient. God created Adam, Eve, the apple, Satan, and the garden. He knew how these elements would interact with one another. He knew Adam would sin before he created him. If he did not know this then he is not all knowing. If he did not see these events unfold as they happened then he is not all seeing.

Yes, knowing everything
Do you know what's not everything? Things that aren't
Things that don't exist, that are non-existent
Non-existence isn't a state of being, it's the lack of thereof
Non-existent knowledge isn't there to be known
It's pretty fucking simple
Omniscience means knowing everything that there is to know
You cannot know what isn't to be known

I am not sure if you're trolling or genuinely retarded.

gotquestions.org/God-know-future.html

>need nothing
>ignore nothing
>still do things

Why?

>Make a box that looks like a car
>Box doesn't work and isn't roadworthy
>Don't try to drive with box

It's almost like being in somethings image doesn't mean anything except that you look like it.

Jesus is God
So God basically promised to do something later
Wow, you convinced me

he still didn't make adam sin even if he permitted it. ultimately it is in god's plan that sin is defeated even if it is allowed to exist. keep in mind though that sin was effectively judged and destroyed on the cross; since then it's just about getting people to accept the spirit of christ i.e. god

...

god didn't create man and woman with original sin

.

I'm not God.

forgot to use the term 'magical sky wizard'

Based on your knowledge of the Judaeo-Christian God, hazard a guess.

Also, desert death cult worshiping a kike on a stick

i think it's funny you believe both these criticisms of christianity even though they clearly contradict each other, but say the bible is wrong because it is contradictory

atheism sure is rigorous

God doesnt make sense, deal with it.

Yes He knew Adam would sin and He also knew that He would redeem humanity Himself on the cross. Adam is responsible for his own sin.

Love creates out of love.

You can use that same logic to make fucking gravity sound irrational, that some magical force in the sky stops things from getting too high in case they try to escape from giant balls of lava and dirt floating in space.

This is a pretty well known fallacy, appeal to ridicule or ad absurdo, and is objectively not an argument.

Your guess is as good as mine.

>Create a problem
>Solve it
>"You're welcome!"
Alright.

I must have missed the point where God took Adam by the wrist and forced that apple in his mouth

Adam created the problem.

A little disappointed that you wouldn't commit but I'm not exactly surprised.

Then my guess is no, I didn't do the right thing. I'd wager you would agree, if you were honest with yourself.

>create beings with the capacity to do wrong
>create temptation
>act all shocked and mad when your creations choose wrongly

What does that have to do with God?

Love is a human need. It is ingrained in our genes.
Does god have genes? Does god have hormones? Does god have a metabolism? Does he/she have a brain?

A perfect being cannot love, nor can he hate. Those are reactions of the brain to certain stimuli.

A perfect, immaterial, omniscient all-knowing being would be just like a ROCK. It would just lay there, doing nothing because unlike us, mortals with a fluctuating metabolism, it requires nothing. Not even the things we think as "immaterial" like love, pride, friendship, etc.

And God created Adam knowing he would sin. See the dog analogy.

>Yeah but he didn't train Adam
He did. He created his conditions and made him in such a way that he would sin. The omniscient creator is at fault for the doings of his creations.

Love predates humanity. God Himself is a loving relationship between three persons; the Father and Son love each other through the Holy Spirit. Love creates out of love.

Well, there's the part where he knew everything and thus knew that Adam was gonna eat that apple and still chose to put that tree there.

If we're gonna go with the dog analogy, God literally trained Adam not to eat the fruit but Adam chose to be disobedient.

So you're arguing God would be a more benevolent being if you were currently a slave lacking completely in free will?

Where exactly in the Bible does it say that God knows and individually creates the decisions humans will make in the future? The concept of free will shows he doesn't.

Humans were originally created unable to do anything but good, until the serpent tricked them into believing that the apple was just a normal apple and eating it wouldn't be too bad, which was original sin and brought it to mankind.

Doesn't work. They wouldn't love each other because love is driven in large part by something unfulfilled in the person that drives them towards the companionship of others. A perfect being could not be unfulfilled in any capacity. God would have no motive to "love."

Hmm... a little disappointing that you couldn't make the connection yourself, but this is Veeky Forums after all.

Well, for the record, I'm not an atheist but it's something I've been wondering: If someone is suffering here on earth and God does nothing to help them (though he absolutely could), is he not complicit in their suffering?

There are a lot of feel-good, "footprints"-esque platitudes to justify His decision to not act and it is easy to simply say that God abides suffering on Earth because it is simply a test and the tribulations of Earth won't matter in His Kingdom, but I feel sometimes that if I could help everyone on Earth, no matter who they are, I would. If I could keep the ones I loved free from pain, I would. I just sometimes wonder why God doesn't do the same.

Love is the need to help another person because he/she is important to you, either because of a familial relationship, or other social relationships.

This need, like all other needs, comes from a deficiency on ones part. I feel hungry because I require nutrients. I feel thirsty because I require water. I feel fear because I require security.
Love is more dificult to explain, but it is not immaterial and abstract. It is the need to help others who are key to ones biological success, that is, reproducing. We love our sexual partners and the resulting offspring so that they may thrive and reproduce as well. This is a biological imperative that comes from millions of years of evolution and it is ingrained in our DNA.
God shouldnt even have DNA.

>God trained Adam not to
No, he told him not to. He created a series of events that caused him to sin. This is conditioning but in a less direct manner.

>And then the serpent
That was created by God.

You err by assuming that God is identical humanity. God's love is its own motive; He loves out of love.

>love is driven in large part by something unfulfilled in the person that drives them towards the companionship of others

You literally just pulled this out of your ass, and even by your definition, it works. Without any of the three aspects God isn't whole, yet the three are separate.

>he thinks time is just a line
>he thinks God can't work outside of time

You forgot that God is supposed to be all powerful.

>That was created by God.

The serpent by most understandings was not created to be a traitor, and as such is being tormented in the lake of fire. You're running off this strawman that God knows which action every being will take, which isn't said anywhere in the Bible. Provide a source for it or fuck off.

You forgot the whole free will thing my friend

God sends the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help those who are suffering. However most people choose not to accept His help.

>a universal, unconditional love that transcends, that serves regardless of circumstances.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape

>God is all knowing
>But he doesn't know some things
k

But if you're a human as well, How can you understand that kind of love? How can you tell me what it would want or not want? How are you able to put on god's shoes?

No God literally conditioned Adam not to sin by telling him not to eat the fruit and explaining that he surely would die if he did. Yet Adam chose to place Eve's will above God's will. Adam is responsible.

God has promised Hell to non-believers so no unconditional love there.

I can't understand it but I can experience it.

>God created Man in his image
thats a mis-translation
God is represented as "I am who I am" which can mean a number of things actually but is often believed to mean (in the context of other passages) that God isn't knowable in a normal context (hence the lack of effigies of him).

Why would god ingrain Adam's DNA with the need for socialization and love, if he knew it would translate into Adam asking for a partner? And then that partner asking for the forbidden apple?

Humans are wise enough not to indulge their babies every wish, why couldn't God be as wise?

God loves even the damned but He is also perfectly just and if sinners chose not to accept Christ's payment for their sins on their behalf they will have to pay for them themselves.

He can, it's just man continues to choose evil.

At some point, the boys have to grow up and take responsibility for their actions to be men. We can't run around acting like a victim and blaming everything else when it's us who out of free will make the choices that bring forth the suffering and exploitation.

But you look at matter on the subatomic level and nothing can exist without being in accordance. Which is synonymous with man, we can't exist without living in accordance.

The book of Enoch points this out, that we can look at nature and see how it doesn't rebel, nature does exactly as it was designed to do. It does God's will and it does not rebel. Yet man is the opposite. Man rebels when he doesn't choose God's will. And all the people who just want peace, they don't even realize their desiring God's exact will. Because it's in us. Some know this, some actually think God is the bad guy though, which is deception. The worlds whole purpose is to separate man from his God, from his creator.

So I mean, the whole argument that blames God is pretty much futile. We have a choice to make, granted it's difficult to choose good all the time....but God knew this, which is why He is the embodiment of mercy and forgiveness, God just waits at the door for people to stop messing around get serious. That's the whole purpose of Jesus Christ. Died for every sin done and not yet done. Giving every man a choice to return home or.....choosing that 'other' and lesser being for their god. Our adversary..

The disconcerting thing about that choice, is that all the suffering on earth...people think it ends here, when the truth is it can just carry over. The evil you see on earth, is just lite-version of the potential evil on the other side.

People really under value jealousy and hatred, if a man, just a man has jealousy and hatred toward you, and if permitted was able to have his way with you....how much more worse from a enemy that was designed stronger than you.

>Create conditions with the knowledge that they will create a certain outcome
>Tell guy not to do a thing even though you know that it will have no real effect on him
>totally blameless
These mental gymnastics are quite impressive.

I was kinda with you until this. This isn't a very good line of thinking and it limits God's power. If God doesn't know the future, or as you say, that which does not exist because it has not happened yet, then Revelation is conjecture and the events and promises there-in are not truths.

I think it is better to admit that God knows everything and made a situation where he created beings knowing full well what would happen. In the end, he knows that a certain number of his creations will have walked his path and will be worthy to stand with him again in the end.