In Hinduism, why is the warrior king class (Ksatriyas) subordinate to the priestly class (Brahmins?) Is there really any other example in a civilization where weak frail intellectual priests were on a higher position on the scale than the kings and warriors, the men of action? Especially considering that the foundations of Hindu society are based on how the invading war-like Aryans structured their new homes
Also, why are the highest ranks on the caste system lighter in skin tone than the lowest? Would this suggest an old racial system of separation between the invading Aryans and the natives that were there before the Aryans? Having been to India, most low caste Indian women in particular bear a striking resemblance to Australian aboriginals and other aboriginal groups throughout south and southeast Asia, some Brahmins, I observed, could even pass for southern Europeans.
Aryan invasion theory is false. Skin color has nothing to do with caste.
Ian Wood
Medieval Europe?
Christopher Thompson
t. dravidian that cant enjoy whole milk
Elijah Roberts
>why are the highest ranks on the caste system lighter in skin tone than the lowest?
Because the highest ranks dont have to work under the sun, so they dont get the sexy tan.
Hunter Robinson
also paleness can marking of social class. stocks that do manual labor are darker and backward castes vs white collar upper caste that would get less sun invariably.
Hunter Taylor
>Especially considering that the foundations of Hindu society are based on how the invading war-like Aryans structured their new homes
There was no Aryan invasion and Hindu society is not based on warriors structuring society as much as its based on brahmins structuring society. The warrior caste is the same caste as rulers and statesman so they have structured hindu society in important ways as well.
>Also, why are the highest ranks on the caste system lighter in skin tone than the lowest?
Largely a myth, although the vedic culture originates in North India and spread to the rest of the continent, and North Indians are lighter skinned in comparison to South Indians, due to latitude.
>Having been to India, most low caste Indian women in particular bear a striking resemblance to Australian aboriginals and other aboriginal groups throughout south and southeast Asia
They come from tribal groups and other ethnicities indigenous to the subcontinent that aren't aryan or dravidian. Since Vedic culture is Aryan in origin and spread throughout india these people were co-opted into lower castes or were simply considered untouchables because they were from outside the vedic culture.
>some Brahmins, I observed, could even pass for southern Europeans.
In north india they're light skinned compared to south indians, just like everybody else in north india. In south india most high caste indians are just as dark skinned as all south indians, some may be lighter skinned due to north indian descent, since the vedic culture originates in north india.
Parker Miller
>Aryan invasion theory is false >There was no Aryan invasion [citation needed]
Mason Rivera
So you're saying me the off white/light brown skin tone of the Brahmin class would be just as pitch black as the Dalits if they were exposed to the sun more? Really? That's like saying a Giraffe became a giraffe because a donkey stretched it's neck far enough.
Bentley Bell
This. Putting religious figures on a higher standing than warriors is common, because violence has always been seen as imperfect in nature while spirituality was always an ideal. And temporal affairs were generally seen as lower than spiritual ones. That's why in Europe the clergy was the first estate and nobility the second.
Of course, the actual power balance in Europe was leaning on nobility's side. But I suspect it was the same in India.
Ayden Perez
Wasnt that more like dual soveriegns? People could get in trouble with their king or prince but also with he church.
Luis Jones
its the current scholarly consensus, google is your friend. There were, according to mainstream scholarship nowdays, several waves of relatively peaceful migration of iranian people to a land that was possibly already inhabited by more sedentary iranian people (indus valley and other settlements)
Ethan Brooks
>There was no Aryan invasion >Vedic culture is Aryan in origin Make up your mind, champ
Gavin Green
>several waves of relatively peaceful migration
Austin Hernandez
and there is genetic transmission which resembles skin color, lactose tolerance, etc
David Howard
>semantics We're not arguing that they came in guns blazing, we are arguing if they came at all, which one of you fucks implied didn't happen.
Nathan White
I don't know whether you're ignorant or not, but with brown skins, the tone of skin color change depending on the exposure to the sun or not.
You can easily tell the difference between a brown skin who'se live most of his/her life inside and the other who's only worked directly under the sun 10 hours a day every day.
This isn't a magical land where you instantly turn light/brown on sun, but rather overexposure stacks everyday/every hour. And it only keeps stacking. Especially with the weather of India.
Not sure, but Indians have valued intellects for the longest. Intellects are the top of the class even back before Alexander the Great tried his luck on the fringes of India. Taxilla was a Great university and a learning center even during Alexander's time. If you were poor but showed potential, the King would pay for your tuition to go learn there.
Anthony Russell
no, none of us implied they never came at all, we said the aryan invasion theory is false, or to put it your way, that they came in guns blazing. You should read up on the history of the scholarship in this area to understand the context of what we're saying. What is known as the Aryan Invasion Theory is now considered to be false by mainstream scholarship. The Vedic people migrated and settled. It cannot be called an invasion.
Oliver Jenkins
>I actually meant "aryan migration" instead of "aryan invasion" kek
Cameron Phillips
because the religious leaders had sway of the masses
in india
the warrior class had shit on them if they turned
Tyler Anderson
It's a pretty bold assertion by historical revisionists that the Aryan invasion (or migration, whatever you want to call it) didn't happen, that can only have an artificially-induced life in an age of political correctness.
William Stewart
Migration and invasion are completely different things. The AMT fits better with geographical and architectural evidence such as the presence of fire altars in a decidedly IVC city, and the drying up of the basin. At the same time, within a few hundred years you have the polished grey ware culture and janapadas that were organized on IVC principles such as having units of 16 and similarly organized towns and cities.
Jordan Moore
pic related is a "priest-king" figure from the Indus Valley circa 2000 BC
It's possible that originally the Warrior caste was held in higher esteem.
Christian Evans
I've seen this before. Any evidence that this is indeed a priest king?
Just so you know, this is a faked artifact. Don't believe me, look it up.
Ryan Robinson
how about you spoonfeed me.
Logan Green
Google shows nothing. Link por favor.
Ryan Peterson
proof that modi was always a leader! what a hero #deathtocongress #virathindurashtra
Jack Nguyen
Oh sheeeiit, it does kind of look like Modi.
Jordan Gomez
There is, but it's sort of developed after the fact, since castes don't marry outside other castes.
Eli King
...
Matthew Phillips
They weren't first in the sense of ruling, but more in a "metaphysical" sense. They lived in an ideal way and pursued "pure knowledge", and acted as an example of goodness for others to follow. Kings always came from the ksatriya caste.
> weak frail intellectual priests Dude, they follow rigorous, physical discipline. Also "intellectual" is a pretty poor word choice, unless you are referring to "intellect" in the way some ancient philosophers like Aristotle meant it which I doubt you are.
pic kinda related
Jose Scott
>Is there really any other example in a civilization where weak frail intellectual priests were on a higher position on the scale than the kings and warriors, the men of action?
Japan is the number one example. The ceremonial emperor and the court nobles (who were often the heads of major shrines and even state-sanctioned Buddhist temples) outranked the warrior class. The Shogunate changed the balance of power rather late, yet even then the country bumpkin samurai paid deference to the literate aristocracy in the Imperial capital. China had the same deal during several dynasties: generals (let alone soldiers) were typically seen as lower than scholar-bureaucrats, when they weren't scholar-bureaucrats themselves. Though at least their emperors did have a martial role.
Oliver Clark
This isn't Hinduism, it's the culture. Being Hindu does require being in caste
Michael Gray
>China had the same deal during several dynasties Not exactly. In China, the Generals are Scholar-Bureaucrats themselves.
Ever since the T'ang Dynasty, with the exception of the odd Military Adventurer/Mercenary promoted due to meritorious service in the field/good-man-for-the-job-kind of decisions, most of them took the officer's military service exam and went to military academy.
This is why Chinese generals loved the "robe over armor" look. Not only is it practical during the cold climes but it gives them the image of Martial Scholar
Leo Bailey
>China had the same deal during several dynasties: generals (let alone soldiers) were typically seen as lower than scholar-bureaucrats The military was a lot more meritocratic the further back you go.
Early dynasties had far less bureaucratic red tape compared to post Tang polities.
>This is why Chinese generals loved the "robe over armor" look. Not only is it practical during the cold climes but it gives them the image of Martial Scholar. There's not much to go by in reconstructing the equipment of high ranking officers.
Statues,paintings and murals often show ceremonial elements/imperial guards.
Nolan Campbell
>Is there really any other example in a civilization where weak frail intellectual priests were on a higher position on the scale than the kings and warriors most of them. religion was really, REALLY big deal back then.
Oliver Ross
>why is the warrior king class subordinate to the priestly class?
This is not unusual as far as I know. Priestly classes existed in many ancient societies and frequently exercised political power that rivaled or surpassed that of kings.
I believe this pattern can be observed in Ancient Egypt, the early Israelites, and even among American Natives (the Powhatan made war decisions upon consulting their priests, an extremely common pattern throughout the world.)
>why are the highest ranks on the caste system lighter in skin tone than the lowest?
You don't want to over-read race into the caste system. When people think of the caste system they typically think in terms of its largest organization, the four varnas (ksatriya, rudra, brahmin, vaisya). Etymologically varna has some relationship to color if I recall, and this may indicate a racial relationship from the past.
But the caste system is vastly more complicated than the varnas. It includes hundreds of locally meaningful "Jati" which have developed in relation to India's extraordinary variety of linguistic, historical, religious, sectarian and class divisions. As far as I know there is no simple racial template which simplifies this order across the Indian subcontinent.
Observations like "Having been to India, most low caste Indian women in particular bear a striking resemblance to Australian aboriginals" are extremely clumsy. Surely you recognize that you're playing ethnography from an anecdotal position. Ethnography absolutely requires complex, interdisciplinary study to be useful.
Juan Fisher
The same way in which Power in feudal Europe was held by Kings and lords but they were in a way subordinate to the Pope.
Mason Harris
If you want your warriors to fight for you rather than themselves you need to brainwash them from infancy, the priests do this so naturally they require a share of power to ensure their loyalty.
Hudson Lopez
Unironically read Evola.
Grayson Rivera
ITT People who havent been to india.
t.pajeet immigrant.
Jonathan Thomas
because it allows the priests to fully detach themselves from the "unclean" world, especially the filthiness involved with ruling, yet still control the society. since they are the most detached, they are also the most divine and therefore most respected.
Nicholas Walker
>the actual power balance in Europe was leaning on nobility's side. eh not exactly, it swayed a lot back and for until eventually the Third estate toppled the second and left the third twisting in the wind.
Carson Moore
To understand the idea of "priest-kings" you need to understand early civilization and how the social structure worked.
early "cities" were palace/temple economies, where basically all wealth flowed into a singular location, and then out again as distributed by the elites.
in the cased of hill people societies like the Mycenaean the palace was a fort and the King was a great warrior. farming was harder on the hills, rain less reliable, and they bordered the lands of nomadic savages more often than not so strength and valued.
for river people, i.e the earliest large civilizations, there was significantly greater wealth, but also the ability to be self sufficient due to higher yields and populations to work it. likewise with greater population and centralization comes the need for labour stratification. this develops into castes over time. now Temple socities dominated the riverlands, because faith and the thread of divine power was a far greater mechanism for compelling people to give goods over to the Temple for distribution, and beyond that, priests were learned men with secret knowledge of things like how the crops grew, the phases of the moon, the phases of the river/floods, climate patterns. as well as more traditional holy man stuff like dispensing good graces, interpreting divine will and signs, making proper sacrifices to keep the gods happy, and so on as you can imagine.
in places like Egypt this went a step further where the King became a priest among priests, with a system of temples under his command across a nation with him alone as their God, no longer translating the god's will but wielding it.
the Indus valley was similar, but with the Aryan invasions, the priestly caste adopted the barbarian invaders as a "secondary" ruling class, while they themselves retained the higher status and divine right.
Justin Rivera
high quality post
Jeremiah Parker
Ironically though it always ended up being the hill people on the frontier who would end up dominating these civilizations, except in Egypt because of its isolation and the stability of the Nile.
Kayden James
Literally all the Hindu nationalists claiming that Aryan invasion theory is false have to disprove the linguistic, archaeological, and religious evidence that horse riding Iranic peoples(Aryans) swept into India.
Out of India theory is dogshit wewuzism. I'm saying this as a dravidian.
Jose Gomez
>invasion the academic consensus now is that it was long waves of relatively peaceful migration you south indian scum.. Now go back to hoarding gold.
Carson Peterson
Lel you can't admit you got keked hard by Persians. Peaceful migrations of massive amounts of people don't happen. There will be conflict no matter what.
>hoarding gold
Literally every Indian does this. Every Punjabi I know gives shit tons of gold at his daughters wedding.
John Fisher
>he has trouble understanding why the scholars should rule the warriors Warrior pleb detected
Matthew Allen
>Emperor Ashoka was here.
Moksha, brb.
Liam Nelson
>Peaceful migrations of massive amounts of people don't happen.
They do if they migrate to land where there are no other people
John Howard
>lele, you got cucked by persians >peaceful migrations don't happen >let me show the current refugee crisis in europe as an example. I am sure you have actual evidence that the academia have forcibly suppressed. Was there some amount of confict involved? of course. Was it by and large largely peaceful and over a long period of time? yes. The drying up of harappan rivers and the gradual increase of PGW points towards it.
>every indian I know hoards gold south indians sit on that gold and then donate it to their nearest temple to buy a ticket to heaven.
Ryan Harris
He wants to have his edgy neckbeard fantasies about indo-european horseman "sweeping" into india and conquering "the dark skinned inhabitants", its a peice of knowledge countless adolescent males have gleaned from the internet from other fedorad neckbeards and treasured for years, posting in forums about it, getting into heated online debates, making them feel knowledgeable about what they feel is a fascinating little known fact, allowing them to pipe up about how this is where hitler "stole" his racial theories from and isnt it ironic that aryans were dark skinned, or alternativley, how aryans were ancient whites. So let him have it, its an old and long tradition ultimatley originating with gentlesirs of the 19th and 20th centuries who were basically the equivalent of todays euphoric denizens of the internet
Kayden Brown
Protip OP: the nice and neat 4-caste system you're describing never actually existed in India, that's mostly an invention by the first explorers into the region to make sense of what is a much more complex and hard to decipher social strata
Jack Baker
false, everyone has that has invaded india uses their ethnoreligion to divide and conquer, muslims got the salty hindus to convert, same with christian missionaries.
