What do protestantism and industriousness have to do with each other?

what do protestantism and industriousness have to do with each other?

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Jack shit. People just noted the correlation between protestantism and wealth creation in the 19th century but as reality proved, it's just correlation, not causation. Look at Europe now, the richest region of Germany is hands down Bavaria which is also the most Catholic.

nothing, Weber was autistic

Switzerland is the richest region in Europe and it's Protestant

why don't you just read the book and figure out, I'm sure it's easily acquirable online

...

Not its autistic like any simple explaination for the Rise of Capitalism/Industrial Revolution

Which is why they guard the Pope, right.

1. It's not
2. The richest place in Europe is Lichenstein which is Catholic

Nothing. Weber was wrong.

If maps were shaded like balance sheets, the bottom part of mainland Europe would be deepest red. Italy, Spain and Portugal are heavily in debt. They are also Catholic countries. Their predominantly Protestant neighbours to the north, including Germany and Scandinavia, are in comparatively good shape financially.

Luther wanted women as well as men to be able to read the Bible. Not only did his followers set out to establish church schools in every parish, but girls went there as well as boys. At that same time Catholic areas didn't even have any boys' schools.

Catholics also practiced the dysgenic practice of having their best and brightest swear an oath of celibacy.

It's only just Scandinavia, faggot. Netherlands, Belgium and Germany have more Catholics than Protestants.

The majority of the people I know who are highly intelligent and hard-working, happen to be Jewish.

central europe is the wealthiest part of europe and it is overwhelmingly catholic.
in this I include Austria, Southern Germany, Northern Italy, and France until the Rhone.

But this is because of the superiority of the Alpine Master Race, not Catholicism.

Historically speaking both the Netherlands and Germanyalways had a protestant majority, more catholics than protestants is only a phenomenon from the last years

According to Löwith, Weber thinks only by the irrational momentum from protestantism religion capitalism would not be happened.
but I think another kind of irrational religious moment, like shintoism in Japan, could be substitute of protestantism.

the alternative is a dynastic priest race.

I think the biggest advantage the protestants had, was the war of Spanish succession. while Catholics were fighting each other into bankruptcy, the protestants kept it steadily trucking into well established institutions and rule of law.

I would like to add that after the peace of westphalia, protestant countries didn't have to worry about anything other than insurgencies while for most of the catholic nations the ottomans were a real threat.
as we can see from the USA currently, empires that spend all their money on war go crazy and think god talks to them (God is Spanish and such)

American exceptionalism has long been a thing. Even Bismarck noted how God protects, dogs, drunkards, children and the United States of America.

Read Durkheim. He explains that in his works. I don't remember which.

Nice cherry picking of the few enclaves probably purposefully sustained financially by the Vatican to serve as a perception of success. Meanwhile in actual counties where people live and work Protestantism correlates with financial stability and economic soundness while populous Catholic countries like Mexico, Brazil, Italy, the Philippines don't.
Orthodox are like the alternative nightly build of the Catholic software which is why they've had comparable success in modern times.
Not to mention the growth of Catholicism in Europe is due to immigration at the same time that more people are becoming irreligious.
You also have to ignore the precariousness of the Anglo-sphere markets with its free market philosophy.

He was factually wrong. Capitalism started in italy during the renaissance and after.

>purposefully sustained financially by the Vatican to serve as a perception of success

Yes, the Pope funds Switzerland user.

>Debt-ridden Catholic Southern Europe funds the Vatican which funds wealthy Catholic Central European countries which give aid money to Third World shitholes which give the Vatican more Catholic subjects.
What a circlejerk.

More seriously, you're completely wrong and delusional.

>Catholic immigration
>Europe
From where exactly?

I hear a lot of dioceses have bank accounts in Switzerland, Luxembourg and Liechtenstein. Must be a Jesuit conspiracy.

A lot of people seem to have no clue so I have to leave this here.

>PNG
>but not Australia or NZ

Wut

Offshore bank accounts made that city state rich and the Pope uses as much of his resources as he can to ensure the area remains catholic not too different from the Wahhabis.
Also not mentioning the area was historically Protestant and was the place where Reformed theology developed which is what Weber cites as the reason for Protestant's economic success.

You know that the Reformed Church didn't convert all of Switzerland?
Most cantoons stayed Catholic.

On the flip side.

and

>In the 2013 Census, 55.0 percent of the population identified with one or more religions, including 49.0 percent identifying as Christians. Another 41.9 percent indicated that they had no religion.[n 11][273] The main Christian denominations are Roman Catholicism (12.6 percent), Anglicanism (11.8 percent), Presbyterianism (8.5 percent) and "Christian not further defined" (i.e. people identifying as Christian but not stating the denomination, 5.5 percent)
So that's about 25% Protestants (counting Anglicans and people too stupid to know what Church they belong to) for NZ versus 40% non-religious, and Catholicism is the largest single denomination.

>In the 2011 census, 61.1% of Australians were counted as Christian, including 25.3% as Roman Catholic and 17.1% as Anglican [18,7% "Other Christians"]; 22.3% of the population reported having "no religion"; 7.2% identify with non-Christian religions
So that's 35,8% Protestants at best, and Catholicism is still the largest single denomination.

Neither of the countries have a Protestant majority.

More like the after Catholic cantons defeated the Protestants they proceeded to launch a counter Reformation as far as they could.

>other Chrisitians
>not Evangelicals and other protestant derivatives.
Also most of those claiming they're not religious were likely born into a Christian family.

Defeated them how?

The Wars of Religion back then were basically like the Shia vs Sunni conflicts today.

From Polska, all over debt ridden Europe, and the global South.

>the alternative is a dynastic priest race.

The fuck are you talking about?

I counted "Other Christians" in the Protestant percentage, what are you complaining about?

>most of those claiming they're not religious were likely born into a Christian family.
They're just as likely to have been born in a non-religious family.

For

So you are telling me Catholicism in Europe is increasing because some catholics within Europe are moving somewhere else within Europe?

Not as much as Weber would have you think, but still something.

This is an excellent survey of the current state of the literature: "Causes and Consequences of the Protestant Reformation" www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/workingpapers/2016/twerp_1105_becker.pdf
There is evidence that the reformation had positive effects on education, a small "work ethic" effect, and perhaps some related effects in terms of entrepreneurship. This all adds up to superior economic growth.

Exactly so they shouldn't be portrayed as a mere failure to convert people or convince them of a faith.
>Irreligiosity
>not a thing not until recently

In Scandinavia, a long time bastion of Lutheranism, the number of Catholics and Orthodox have been increasing due to immigration while native born Scandinavians are continuously becoming more nonreligious which coupled with Muslim immigration deals a blow to Lutheranism and Protestantism as a whole.

Protestants didn't persecute usury like the Vatican did, and since the modern economy is fueled by debt and paper money the protestant countries got a massive head start despite their initial poverty relative to Catholic nations. The protestant countries also didn't waste the largest sum of gold ever looted on useless wars for the Pope.

Exactly, the impetus behind the formulation of the theses made by the scholars of the last two centuries my have been at times the desire to advance their careers, not necessarily too different from now, and they should be taken with a grain of salt but there likely is some truth to be found in their theories.

That was Mercantilism. Contrary to many peoples' beliefs, there is a difference.

Talcott Parsons' is the only valid translation and is in the free domain. The commercial Stephen Kalberg version has had the text simplified for the "modern" reader.

d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/1095/The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.pdf

There was a strong correlation until after the treaty of westphalia, though Max might be mixing cause and effect.

Heresy was frequent during the middle ages but local powers rarely sponsored it and if they did they were crushed like the Cathars and Hussites. The HRE was powerful enough to ignore papal authority, but they didn't want to upset the system and just created their own antipope rather than a separate church.

This changed in the late 15th century along with a great many other things.

The more industrious dense grain growing regions of Northern Europe with good access to trade went the deepest into protestantism. The middle class had no stake in maintaining order and so allowed their own religious views to affect their decisions, the lollards and others were in large part small landowners not serfs and resented the Church's privileges, in the past they had little power, now they were a larger part of the economy and could attack the church's authority and later the authority of the king.

Another factor is distance from the continent, Scandinavia and England wouldn't face invasion for converting which can be contrasted with the trading city states of Italy who although prosperous and overflowing with renaissance thought and new ideas existed in the Catholic heartlands.

Wouldn't the economy of earlier Muslim, Chinese, Indian, civilizations or even the Romans and the Ottomans be similar?

Not to mention the propensity for fighting between the various medieval Catholic kingdoms and also how Catholics spent a lot of time repressing the Orthodox as well and earlier the pagans.

Because the development of Free Market Capitalism is tied to the virtues of Protestantism. Hard Work, being a cheap asshole, investing your money in something worthwhile rather than giving to the church, the belief that material wealth is a reward for your piety.

Not saying Weber's right, he himself admits at the end that it's just a theory bro and his theory isn't conclusive and he needs to do more research.

Mercantilism was a macroeconomic theory and policy, not an economic system.

>latvia
>germany
>netherlands
>not majority protestant
Shit map

>Latvia
Most Christians are Catholic or Orthodox.

>Germany
The largest denomination is Catholicism (30%), a third of the population isn't even religious.

>Netherlands
Half of the population is non-religious, and Catholicism is the largest branch of Christianity again (24%).

The Thirty Years War was nothing like the modern Shia vs Sunni conflict (which is fucking old in the first place and predates the thirty years war by a lot).

Your broad spectrum Christianity-Islam analogues are tired and stale rehashes from greater men trying to draw parallels where they don't belong. There is was and will be nothing like the institution of the Holy Roman Empire in the Middle East. Period.

While we're on the subject:

The Protestant Church of the Netherlands (PKN) forms the largest Protestant denomination, with some 8.6% of the population in 2015, based on in-depth interviewing,[3] down from 60% in the early 20th century. About 4% of newborns were baptized within the PKN in 2014.
Research shows that 42% of the members of the PKN are non-theist.[26] Furthermore, in the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN) and several other smaller denominations of the Netherlands, 1 in 6 clergy are either agnostic or atheist.

>The Thirty Years War
I was talking about the Wars of Religion in general, mind.

>the modern Shia vs Sunni conflict[s]
Are modern. It's obviously not the first time Shiites and Sunnis are killing each others.

>There is was and will be nothing like the institution of the Holy Roman Empire in the Middle East.
I don't know how that is relevant at all.

The point of the parallel was that the Wars of Religions saw regional powers or rulers strongly affiliated with a religion rolling into town and stamping out rival heresies, followed by revolts and reprisal massacres in neighboring lands or when a rival took control again. Persecution, migration, forced conversion, mutilation, torture, beheading, burning at the stake, mass starvation, sacking of cities etc.

It wasn't meant to imply that the Wars of Religion were EXACTLY like the current interfaith conflicts in the Middle East, but the struggle for dominance between Protestantism and Catholicism had more to do with ISIS than with a Sunday School debate team.

>Germany
>Switzerland
>Netherlands

Can we stop this meme? Those are NOT majority protestant countries.

Based on this picture Norway and Finland are the only prot countries that are not shitholes

If Protestants work so hard, why is the most religious region in the United States also have the highest obesity rates?

>I was talking about the Wars of Religion in general, mind.

Just as BS except the error is even more grievous when you extend the dates outward.

>Are modern. It's obviously not the first time Shiites and Sunnis are killing each others.

At least you can recognize when history repeats itself.

>I don't know how that is relevant at all.

It is entirely relevant. The political situation of ANY STATE in the Middle East bears no relationship whatsoever to the Holy Roman Empire's structure or the complex and oftentimes obtuse interactions between vassal and lord.

You're trying to fucking claim modern countries are equivalent to a feudal age society and it doesn't work. The entire situation is completely different, an entirely different form of warfare. Paid mercenaries are not ravaging across Baghdad because their overlord can't pay the bills. Iranian troops are not moving to destroy Iraq because the head of Iraq is trying to fashion himself King of Saudi Arabia.

>Persecution, migration, forced conversion, mutilation, torture, beheading, burning at the stake, mass starvation, sacking of cities

Yes, you've described every fucking religious war in human history. Congratulations, it still doesn't make this situation anything like what German peasants had to go through in the 16th century. Other than death. Guess that's constant throughout all of human history? Death.

Iceland is pretty good now that they got their shit back together.

>42% of the members of the PKN are non-theist.
>1 in 6 clergy are either agnostic or atheist.

>You're trying to fucking claim modern countries are equivalent to a feudal age society
I'm not, though.

>Paid mercenaries are not ravaging across Baghdad because their overlord can't pay the bills
Actually that's more or less what happened with a lot of insurgent groups in the Middle East.
>Iranian troops are not moving to destroy Iraq because the head of Iraq is trying to fashion himself King of Saudi Arabia
They're moving against the Sunni group trying to take over Iraq, while the Saudis are clashing with the same group because the leader fashions himself a Caliph and contests the authority of the Saudi king.

But that's all quite coincidental and completely besides the point, really.

>Yes, you've described every fucking religious war in human history
Find me one that fits better.

Look, I've already explained why I bothered drawing a parallel with the atrocities in the Middle East. You don't have to keep reminding us that the 16th century was not like the 21st century.

Didn't you know? Western Christians have abandoned all pretenses and openly worship the Old Ones now.

The netherlands WERE predominantly protestant for centuries, it has only been due to the (relative) recent events of secularisation, which is more dominant among protestants than among catholics, that catholics are a majority.

before 25 years ago they were ffs .