Western esotericism

no fuck that they believe in angels and shit

I inquired deeply into the nature of myself, that is who I am and what I do and why I do all those things. Came to find out it stems from desire, pleasure, pain, etc all complex feelings. So I regarded these feelings as a mechanism ingrained in me to survive, as all my mechanisms are. But I always assumed I could be a slave to survival, that I would always be this way because I was.

Until I destroyed the 'me', the controller, that very survival instinct. I destroyed it because I overcame all fear, I knew what fear was and abolished it inside me. And the moment I did that I had my mystical experience, that I describe that as for a mere instant, I experienced what it meant to truly be nothing. In that moment I was nothing. And the next instant I came back to right where I was last instant and realized yes, I truly am nothing and so is everything I've ever seen, believed or experienced. And I was enlightened, liberated. I don't suffer from depression anymore like I used to.

Interesting. What is your outlook on life as a whole, is it optimistic or something else?
In my "realization" moment that transformed me, what I understood was that life is a complex machine, and I am part of it. That's it, that is all it took to change me. Suddenly I had no more fear and worries. It meant that what I was doing, what everything was doing, was just what it was supposed to be doing from the beginning. Everything is working just fine, just as intended. It was like a reassuring pat on the back from life itself, as if saying "haha everything is ok bro just keep living". I felt that things are falling into place, concepts became much more connected and "whole".

experienced something like this myself

it's legit

>Basically it means I believe my train of thought has become so fanatical and factual in a particular subject that when I speak about it I sound insane. My train of thought in particular has been on human nature, which is the nature to survive.

I would have to agree with you, since I agree that everything is nothing and you are also nothing, so you are a 'part' of nothing but really that's silly because nothing is always whole, even when exposed to time.

Yeah I know I sound nuts but I agree with you.

I feel at peace. I feel I know everything I've ever needed to know. And now all I want to do is share the truth I have found with other people. But if people don't want to hear that truth than that is okay too, because everyone should be able to do as they want, right?

It's definitely positive. I feel unconditional love for life. And never any fear unless I get lost in 'myself'.
It is but everyone calls us crazy when we mention it. Why is that?

>My train of thought in particular has been on human nature, which is the nature to survive.

That's false. Evolution only created us to be able to produce and ensure the survival of offspring, which often does but does not always mean ensuring our own survival. Parents will risk dying to save their children. Men will risk dying to save their women. Hell, the very fact that we die is because we are programmed to do so so we don't suck up our kid's resources.

it hit me when I realized I am "it" and "it" is me, what else could I be? now I'm like metaphysically cooling

i want to share it with everyone too but words can't do the job. not gonna lie being completely alone with these kinds of experiences can really suck too

Nobody dies unless they believe they are dying for a greater cause, which is survival of that cause. For example dying for your children is to ensure their survival that you view as more valuable than your own. And yes, we die because we are conscious inside an immortal vessel. All in the name of survival.

you're like a baby to me, man

yeah but you and I aren't alone even if we describe it differently because written language is hard to use to describe it. It's impossible to always not be 'me', and 'me' feels fear. I was scared that I was the only one who knew the truth to, but thanks to the joys of the technology of the internet we know we are not alone.

>It's definitely positive. I feel unconditional love for life. And never any fear unless I get lost in 'myself'.
Yeah that's expected. We are humans after all.

>It is but everyone calls us crazy when we mention it. Why is that?
Because people fear that which is strange, and for good reason. When one of your species is "acting up" - showing abnormal behavior - it triggers emotions which tells people that you are "strange", hence you are labelled crazy. Since you cannot convey 100% of your experiences to people, there is a barrier which does not allow them to interpret what you are saying in a way that they can understand by integrating their current knowledge with your experience. Nobody is faulty here really.

You speak in truths, very clearly and very well. That means you must think like I do. I didn't even know people like me were called esoteric until I spoke to a guy who was familiar with spiritualism.

I always identified myself as nobody, but no one truly understands what you're saying when you call yourself nobody.

Esoteric refers to religious knowledge not readily available to the layman (or at least, not made so by the religious authorities). This would include things such as Jewish Kabbalism and the "feminine aspect of Yahweh".

You can't really "be" esoteric. You can be studied in one or more esoteric aspects of one or more religions, but it isn't a religion or belief system unto itself.

Yea people like us are out there. Some are called mystics, some priests, others occultists. In past time they were called prophets and seers. Esoteric does well in that it is a more broad term.
Anyway, I'm going to bed, It was good talking to you my man.

u had a few moments like that when i went through puberty and in college. I think a lot of people have a personal revelation around that time.

i experienced this, too. i am pretty sure it was ego death. it's a temporary experience but one that leaves a lasting mark.

OP has returned if anyone has any questions. I like to inquire with others into the seeking of truth.

Do you subscribe to any system? What are your personal views on the big questions? Have you read any esoteric philosophy?

If I remember to later I'm going to bump with passages from my favorite esoteric writings

I do not claim to be a label or part of any organization, system or allegiance. I am nobody, and nobody cannot have any relation to anything.

The big question, if I may clarify, is then what is true? Right? We all want to know what the absolute truth is. That absolute truth is nothing, the eternal, the timeless. It is that everything is actually nothing, because everything is something and nothing is something. I know that makes no sense to you, but its true.

No I have read no philosophy, I came to find out I was esoteric after I had my mystical experience. Please do post your favorites passages, I'd like to see them.

I will as soon as I get home.

That said, nope, that makes perfect sense to me. it's exactly the same truth I've arrived at myself. Everything else is an emptiness and a fullness, emptiness because we are not the absolute ourselves and are subject to causality, fullness because we are expressions of the truth in our own way.

You're not alone.

what esotericism exactly
medieval hermeticism? 19th century occult? neo-shamanist/pagan practices? post-modern chaos magic? Christian mysticism?

Personally I've read Liber Null and Psychonaut and found the philosophy behind chaos magic very interesting, as well as the scientific theories surrounding it.
Carroll's idea is that magicians of the modern age use maths instead of totems in order to influence the tides of causality.

Traditional man considered every object as a symbol, and every action as a ritual.

Every symbol is an object as an object created within the mind. Every action is a ritual based on knowledge the mind has accumulated. So as I'm saying, it's all in your mind.

All that is 'real' that you see IS math. It is nothing but the human perception of math. The very study of math is to uncover how the universe works. I am OP and I used to be a mathematician.

I find it interesting how if we are math we must inquire into the nature of math. Because math is so much more vast than our knowledge, which must be acquired through time. But math occurs and has been occurring at a much faster rate than we can possibly as humans achieve knowledge. But we know that knowledge is essential to our survival as a species. Isn't it all so incredibly liberating to think about?

yes and no
math is just a representation, an abstraction of reality into a form we can understand and play with.
now I've never taken higher maths, that is the truly advanced stuff but from what I have seen of it it borders on philosophy but with formula in the place of ideas.

this is why I find Chaos Magic interesting, at least from the philosophical side, it does away completely with the mysticism and boils things down to the basic components.

I've never tried it myself but I'd like to soon.

here's a good intro into it.
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD00734E0C2F7E9D5

Higher level math requires a fundamental understanding of critical thinking skills. That is if we have an entire class of theories, and we say x is equal to these theories. Then we are asking is x true of y is true? Where y is a separate set of theories, then you have to understand entirely what the actuality of x and y are to be able to discriminate whether they are the same or not, that is true.

It allows very complex ideas to be represented as one idea of symbol, then to work with that compressed idea or symbol in its full actuality but actually realize what you are doing with it. It is on the spectrum of higher level thought and its why we think mathematicians are so smart, or even a little crazy.

Western Esotericism is the continuation of the truth given to us by Plato of the Archetypal reality underlying our material existence. Through the further synthesizing of this current by Plotinus, Augustine, Jung, Joseph Campbell, we realize that we are but a shadow of the true metaphysical reality of Form.

This truth allows us to pull back the veil and see the infinite divinity of existence as personified by the Angel of light, our guide and ascended brother.

We can transcend this existence and become the Nietzschean Overman through our apotheosis and experience of the divine light.

Simply put, Western Esotericism is the continuation of the teachigs of the Mystery Schools from ancient Egypt (some say it goes back to the dawn of man, a la Snake in Eden) that seek to bring Man away from his lowly position to become one with the infinite. In a more pragmatic fashion, it is the desire for full spectrum dominance of manifest existence.

Math is Platonic as well, which is why it ties in with Esotercism. Geometry is the study of shapes that have never existed in the material world, they only exist in the Archetypal reality we can access through the human mind. We then apply the knowledge we glean from this metaphysical source to adapt our flawed reality and create our own Garden of Eden.

It's the stream of light coming to us since the dawn of man as carried in the Form of Plato, the Transmigration of Plotinus, Augustine's Theology, Jungs Archetypes, and Campbell's Monomyth. It is the method of tearing back the veil to see the true and pure underlying reality of which we are a shadow.

I agree with you but you speak very theosophical while I prefer to make my own definitions which are not 'beings' but forces.

I love that man, well said.
I use anthropomorphization as a tool to gain access to certain states, but they are undoubtedly flawed. I believe their is a conciousness there, but at such a state of existence that it would be inseparable from a force. The forms of divinity are simply symbols that let one access these forces to a greater or lesser degree. Similar to how modern qabalists work.

It's weird, because I used to be a scientist. A scientist of truth. A philosopher. And now I am enlightened, spiritually at peace. But I don't believe in the spirit, only the eternal nothing that I am. I tried to tell my parents what happened to me once and they tried to have me locked up in a mental ward.

I've posted about my experiences and have been laughed at. I used to be an edgy fedora and now I'm sitting pretty on the other end of the spectrum. I'm not at peace with myself and my station in life, but I'm at total peace with the big picture and so grateful for existence

The infinite is neither being nor non-being, some struggle with this. However, I would be careful not to dip into nothingness just yet. Tie yourself to existence for a good while longer. It's just too much fun.

I believe in existence with observation. If I'm dead than I can't observe, but to me what I observed that was eternal was nothing. That I was nothing, and through that I perceive everything.

You say it as if you are glad to be from yourself, but that you can't actually be anyone but yourself so sometimes you are confined in the illusion.

>Form of Plato, the Transmigration of Plotinus, Augustine's Theology, Jungs Archetypes, and Campbell's Monomyth

So...gnosticism?
Put Sophia on the phone when you visit user.

Gnosticism generally has a negative view of existence. Hermeticism is closer but they are still slightly pessimistic about life. I see the Platonic forms and giving a numinous quality to existence not as a reason to deny existence itself.

But, yes brother, Sophia is the light of the world, for she taught the sexual secrets to Eve through which life ascends.

I've always found the tantric conception of the universe as the "play" or "dance" of the immortal divine principle very illuminating.

So we exist because we can, and everything's gonna be okay cause there's nothing to fear and nowhere to go

this post makes the most sense to me in this whole thread. I have a hard time understanding the rest of the thread.

I'd ask OP to recommend some esoteric texts that I could read and did he derive his explanation of esotericism from these text and what passages in particular.

but I have feeling hes just making shit up and just assuming his own thoughts are truth which is self evident.

Sure brother, but a lot is my conception, that's the point of esotericism, the gnosis of divinity.

I'll give you the academic sources though.

Western Esoteric Traditions by Clarke
-best I troduction there is and probably what you're looking for.

Corpus Hermeticum
-The cornerstone of Western Esotericims

Gnostic Texts
-A good understanding of Gnosticism is important.

Plato/Plotinus
-there's too much to say, but understand the theory of Forms and the transmigration of the soul

Augustine
-He applies the Platonic view to Christianity and forever changes western theology.

Jung
-modern master, once again too much to say, but start with "Man and His Symbols."
-understand archetypes, collective unconscious, active imagination.

Joseph Campbell
-Hero with a Thousand Faces, a continuation of the Platonic truth as manifested in myth. All stories are one, the Perennial Philosophy.

-Alchemy, Astrology, Greek and Egyptian Myth is good, Christianity, Gnosticism, a good bit of Eastern thought.

-Theosoohy is alright with Blavatsky.

-You'll run into a fair bit of Crowley in this line of thought so it's good to be familiar with him.

That's a good basis achademically speaking. But like I say, you gotta experience it or it's just words on a page.

You really need some Guenon, Evola, and Schuon

ok thanks. sorry if i misunderstood you. ive read some of corpus hermeticum online, wish i had a print copy. I know a good amount of the leads in your post.

ever come across Lesser keys of solomon or Dogme et Rituel de la Haute Magie?

Thanks brother.
I haven't had any experience with the Traditionalist School at all, but I identify deeply with the Perennial Philosophy as manifested in Western Culture.

Where would you recommend I start.

Definitely get the Corpus translated by Copenhaver, it's the best out there and comes with an excellent introduction.

Eliphas Levi and the Lesser Keys are really important modern Hermetic magicians. You'll most often see them in connection to Diabolist types who want to summon demons and such.

It's kinda funny, cause Levi was a hardcore Catholic but influenced a huge current of Satanism in modernity, especially with his Baphomet.

Both are important to metaphysical and esoteric studies, no occult library would be complete without them. Not great starting points but important texts.

An interesting side note, Crowley believed himself to be Levi reincarnated. He also played around with the Lesser Keys. So if this stuff draws your attention I would give Crolwey, Regardie, etc. a look.

Honestly, man, if you feel you got a good handle on this stuff is recommend Evola's Introduction to Magic. complete woo woo for the uninitiated, absolutely fucking dank for those in the know. I'm going to post some passages when I get home from work to give you an idea. Lots of in-depth talk about the Self, initiation, metaphysics, the nature of desire and illusion, it'd based.

I've been studying esotericism and occultism somewhat seriously for almost 6 years. Still only a neophyte of course, but it's completely changed my life.

I'm stoked to see what you post man, I've seen his name around for a long while but never ended up reading him

>"Dig, without fear, with a sharp tool. Ask yourself: 'What elements of my body can I justify with my will? Do I will my own breathing, or the inner combustion through which food is digested? Do I want my own form, my own flesh, this particular man, who lives in this fashion, happy or unhappy, noble or vulgar?' But since I ask these questions, should I not press further on? Do I really will 'my' will, 'my' conscience, 'my' Self, or are they just there? That which I claim is caused by my will, I should also be able not to will it, and thus I should be able to live without it. As far as 'my' empirical Self is concerned, do I own it or does it own me?"

>Those who do not learn to see on this earth will certainly not learn to see in the great beyond. The key to the power over the lower nature has been rusted since the Flood. It is called, "to be awake." To be awake is everything. There is nothing that man can be more certain of than being awake. The truth is that he is caught in a net of sleep and dreams that he himself has woven.

>We need to create a strength in ourselves that is invincible in virtue of itself; then every ghost will vanish as soon as it is formed. This strength consists in a constant determination to remain calm and steady, to be able to dismiss every shadow of sad or evil thought projected by the denser element; in being able to master our own and other people's nervous waves; in having been able to create in us a serenity that sometimes we can derive from solitude, from the countryside, or from our inner world. Over joy and suffering, of the alternating of good and evil, the unconquered spirit must shine, as over the flow of human generations, ever unchanging and cold, shines the light of the stars.

>A cosmic experience is the realization of the sense of duration of one's being in a coparticipation in the cosmic becoming sub specie aeternitatis (from the viewpoint of eternity)

what the best edition for the corpus hermeticum? and other works youve listed?

Without a doubt, the definitive Corpus is the Copenhaver translation. Excellent introduction too.

For Plato, "A Plato Reader" edited by CDC Reeve is a good place to start.
Check out Plato's unwritten doctrines as well.
Audible had some good "Great Courses" on Greek Philosophy and Plato specifically that are wonderful, if you're willing to spend the coin.

You wanna have a good foundation in Greek Myh as well. Hamilton's Mythology is a good place to start.

Read up on Astrology and Qabalah. Waite's Pictorial Key to the Tarot is important to read.

Occultism is about syncretism. You need to immerse yourself in everything.
Even some physical science and quantum physics is good.

Occultism is everything through a Platonic lenses in my opinion. But these are just some ideas.

what do you think about crowley's thoth tarot?

The book is pretty good. Haven't read it in a long time, but he generally knows what he's talking about and has a good reason for doing things. He switched around a few numbers and attributes iirc.

The deck is beautiful, nice artwork. I'm not a big Crowley fiend, so I stick with the Rider Waite, but I'm sure it would cause results like any other deck. if you're attracted to it, there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

He knew a lot about the qabalah, so if you like that deck I would read up on it. Frater Barrabbas's Magical Qabalah for Beginners is a great introduction.

This guy takes the Stoic aspects of occultism up several levels. I like em.

Jiddu Krishnamurti seemed pretty esoteric. He talked a lot about ego death and how when its self induced through inquiry then it becomes a Revelation. That afterwards one is reborn finally a man who can make his own decision for the first time. Free from the observer or controller.

where is this from? I don't tend to read esoteric stuff and read eastern philosophy instead but this sounds very interesting.

Krishnamurti was a 'spiritual genius' though, a lot of things came very easily to him which would be very hard for the your average person, and this is reflected in his books.

He said before he died that no one he knew neither close to him or his associates understood what happened to him. I don't think he meant that in a narcissistic way, I just think because of the time period he lived in (mainly no internet) his message didn't get heard as easily as it can be today. So he knew his work would not be in vain. And died peacefully.

Sauce?
If it's a book i want a pdf

Introduction to Magic by Julius Evola and the UR Group.

> The life of all beings, without exception, is ruled by a primordial Force deep inside them. The nature of this force is craving: an appetite that is never satisfied, an endless restlessness, an irresistible need, and a blind, wild yearning. The essence of this primordial cosmic nature is: becoming; chaotic and disorderly transformation; an incoercible flux; generation-destruction; attraction-repulsion; terror-desire; formation-dissolution. All of these elements are combined in a fiery mixture that knows no rest.The wise spoke of is as wonder and as a terror. They called it: Universal and Living Fire, υλη(matter), Green Dragon, Quintessence, First Substance, Great Magical Agent. The principle of the universal work is also the principle of their “Great Work,” since the Magistery of Creation and the Magistery withwhich man realizes himself according to the royal Art are one and the same.

>The human race does not know it. Aprovidential natural law keeps it hidden from their consciousness through the illusory spectacle of material phenomena, of solid reality without which there would be no rest or peace in their lives. According to the same providential law, this veil of ignorance is removed and the eye of Knowledge is opened only at a certain point of growth and in the presence of a strength able to endure the vision.

>Know, therefore, that the Life of your life is in It. Look out for It.

>It reveals itself, for example, at all times of sudden danger. It may be a speeding car rushing toward you, when you walk absent-
mindedly; or the opening of a yawning crevice in the earth under your feet; a flameless burning coal, or an electrified object that you have touched inadvertently. Then in reaction, something violent and extremely fast happens. Is it your "will," your "consciousness," your "Self? No. Your will, consciousness, and Self usually come into play only later on. At the time
they were absent and left behind. Something deeper, faster, more absolute than everything that you are has suddenly manifested, taken charge, and asserted itself.

>When you experience hunger, terror, sensual thirst, panic, and spasm — there you will encounter this thing again, as something violent, dark, and untamed. And if such intimations allow you to feel it, you will gradually be able to experience it as the invisible background of your whole waking life.

>The deep roots of inclinations, faiths, atavisms, invincible and irratio- nal convictions; habits, character, everything that lives in you as animal
instinct or as biological legacy; all the body's will; the blind thirst for life, yearning to generate, to preserve, and to continue itself — all this recon-
nects and merges into the same principle. In relation to it, you usually have the same freedom of a chained dog: you may not feel the chain, and think you are free until you try to go beyond a certain limit. But when you do that, the chain tautens and stops you. Otherwise, it deceives you: you move in a circle, without realizing it.

He speaks of truth. I have experienced what he is saying. But why does he call it magic? It's more like spirituality.

>Reader, since you have approached the "Science of the Magi," you must be strong enough for this truth: you are not the life in you. You do not exist. There is nothing you can call "mine." You do not own Life: it is Life that
owns you. You endure it. It is a pure illusion to believe that this phantasm of a "Self is able to live forever, following the decay of the body Can't you see that the relation with this body is essential to your "Self," and that any
illness, trauma, or accident has a precise influence on all of its faculties, no matter how "spiritual" and "superior" they may be?

Because magic is the art of subduing this force instead of being subdued by it.

okay, so say I do (and have) overcome this force. Then how am I now magical? I am awoken, yes but I can't do anything my mortal self couldn't do before. Except be more aware.

What I love most about Esotericim, is it's capacity to transform every aspect of your existence. In my 6 years of study, it has come to color my every endeavor. It is applicable to all things.

I think this is why people talk about it being dangerous. People laugh at this, because it sounds edgy, but once you delve into it, you can never go back.

I could stop with esoteric study right now, and I don't believe I would ever go back to seeing things as I did before.

Anyone else feel this way?

It's completely changed my life in a year and a half. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a movie when the kid discovers the fantasy world in his closet or something, I can't believe how differently I see things now. I can't believe this kind of knowledge actually exists.

Magic as a science of the "I". You're in the wrong thread if you're thinking we're talking about shooting fireballs.

Is Esoteric Awakening similiar to Buddhist Awakening? Where you aren't controlled by your thoughts and feelings and just attend to the moment?

yes, esotericism kind of takes the truth that everybody knew and removes all the religious aspects of it that make it dumb.

I'm changed as well, for what I perceive will be the rest of my life. What I can't believe is that I am not alone in my experience of beliefs. That there are actually others who are awoken like I am. But then why are our truths not heard? Is it because they don't want to be heard? Is that the simple answer?

No not for me.
For me it was like being on a mountain top. It's like gaining a perspective above what you saw previously

It's comfy and fun to learn stuff like this

Discovering what you really are, what the world around really is, what can be more fun than knowledge?

It does get surreal sometimes. The beauty that it does exist is awe inspiring.
It's like it opens up a capacity for feeling awe.

For some reason, we are allowed to experience the Archetypal world. Others aren't or don't. It's sad and beautiful at the same time. I don't know if they don't want to or can't.

they're very difficult to communicate by nature, and stuff like "be awake" and "there is only this" and shit like that sounds very trite and maudlin to modern ears, although it is the truth. media stereotypes of new age spirituality have negatively affected popular perception of spirituality, so something like "we are all one" becomes just a corny platitude for monks in the Himalayas and not something that is immediately accessible just walking down the street

it really, really sucks I can't just like place my finger on someone's forehead and just transfer my direct experience of this stuff to their brains. I really hate not being able to properly express this kind of beauty, it's very lonely but it's like a sublime loneliness

Do any of you meditate or do a practise of some sort?

I only ever meditated properly once and that was all I needed. I guess you could say with that one meditation I saw nirvana. Then I didn't need to meditate anymore.

Exactly. I wonder if it's deliberate. I imagine they are being moved by unwholsome forces

Preach it, it's the Gnostic loneliness. Mystics get reputations for being aloof and elitist, but it's simply because you can't ever be like you were and if someone wants to live in the mundane, there is nothing to do about it.

Luckily the affinity between seers bring me into contact with many initiates, many far above me especially.

One thing I've noticed is that many initiates are kind of unknowing initiates. They have the experiences but don't read the traditional literature so they express it in different terms.

I've done a bit of zazen but like the other user said, all that was needed was just one experience with a perfectly thought-less mind and everything clicked.

it's safe to say that that initial experience of pure, present moment awareness is the bedrock on which absolutely everything in esotericism is built

Here's the thing. I used to be way down on myself for not being a traditional ceremonial magician. I've come to terms with the fact that the Archetypal manifests for me in my day to day life much more than during ceremony. I like this too, it is in tandem with engrossing myself in the pragmatic world made numinous by manifestation of spirit.

Tbh it does sound weird and crazy but I understand what you mean. I haven't gone through the feelings of self realization and the like yet, but I hope they will come in time.

I really can't recommend this book enough
its like an esoteric study guide

Math is merely the most simplified language we can use to predict and communicate. It's not necessarily the end all be all of the universe and merely a product of our consciousness. You can, for instance, create entirely impossible constructs with math, and make entirely wrong predictions.

On the other hand:
i.4cdn.org/wsg/1469061097819.webm

The inquiry into ones self takes time but the self realization takes absolutely no time. I wonder if that makes sense. You should still practice thinking through self inquiry but when you feel you are ready practise not thinking and observe why you can't. It will probably be fear. So you must tackle fear which is rooted in time. So you must not fear time, then you can see the moment.

Eh, it's a good primer, but it's too subjective. There are true metaphysical realities behind existence. Chaos magicians are borderline atheists who like to roleplay

Anyone had any practice with remaining conscious during dreamless sleep? I've read it's an old alchemical technique, separating the spirit from the body in preparation for the purification of both. Apparently the test is not losing your shit while floating through infinite space that slowly transforms from darkness to light.

dropping a knowledge bomb on yall

I don't know I think that if you like memes ironically it kind of sets you free.

Truth

So who Luciferian here?