Do Christians believe that prayer has a real, measurable effect?

The fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

So yes.

Can you force God to perform parlor tricks? Are you insane? No, seriously, are you insane?

You can prey to demons if you'd like to spend eternity with them, sure. Prayer is just talking. Meditating is something else, and there's a way to meditate that is pleasing to God, that involves ruminating on a bible verse you don't quite grasp.

And you're right as far as short term benefits go. But from a Christian point of view, prayer brings you closer to God, and shows your devotion to him, as well as functioning as a confession.

What impact the praying itself has on your current situation isn't likely to be much better than a good talk with someone you know will never judge you (as in won't get angry and leave you for saying it to him) and meditating certain verses or simply reciting prayers as another form of meditation.

Also, I have to add, this is one of the better religion threads I've seen here in a while, it actually asks an interesting question that's generally created a discussion on the topic, instead of just bait stuff. You're being part of the change Veeky Forums needs from what I can tell.

>God can't hear everything.
>God didn't know all your prayers before He created the world.

You need a bigger God.

>as well as functioning as a confession.

Why are you confessing?

Because we all sin, and by confessing I hope to achieve some sort of redemption from them by expressing my regret for it and asking for forgiveness.

so demons have just as much power to intervene in the world as God? the bible is pretty clear that God will perform miracles if you pray. Jesus was very clear about this. yet you admit that prayer has no such divine benefits, that it just talking, thinking while you hope that someone is listening. but it doesn't matter if this person is listening, he won't do anything, say anything. Oh such is the mighty power of the Most High God, Yahweh of Hosts!

Ah, I see. You have no idea what the forgiveness of sin entails, nor how it was accomplished, nor what the wages of sin is.

And when you confess, are you increasing God's knowledge of the facts?

Yes, absolutely, there's just some things they cannot do, including any good, confessing Jesus came down from heaven in the flesh, and creating something from nothing. But people pray to demons all the time, knowingly and unknowingly.

People also pray to things that can never help them, like idols carved of wood, or gold, or silver, or meteorites from space.

>can't take a joke

>You have no idea what the forgiveness of sin entails, nor how it was accomplished, nor what the wages of sin is.

Maybe not, but I'm always willing to learn. Can you explain to me what I'm doing wrong?

>And when you confess, are you increasing God's knowledge of the facts?

Of course not, just expressing my remorse and asking for forgiveness. I don't do it unless I actually regret it, this isn't like a "Lol sorry" sort of thing to me.

Sure.

When you express remorse, when did God know that you were remorseful?

I'm not sure actually, is God ever stated as outright knowing the mind of man at all times? I feel like he is, which would make the answer be obviously as soon as I regretted it, but if not, it wouldn't be until I expressed it or died and my spirit is judged.

From before He made the world.

Let's catch you up to forgiveness. What does the bible say the wages of sin is?

What does the bible say is necessary for the remission of sins?

Prayer is a way of coming closer to God, only children and fedoralords think that it's praying to Sky Daddy for things.

>From before He made the world.

Source? I feel like it's right, but I'm also not sure how that fits in with the idea of free will.

>What does the bible say is necessary for the remission of sins?

Well, I know that 1 John 1:9 says
>If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Proverbs 28:13 says
>Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.

And a few others reference repentance to obtain forgiveness in the eyes of God. This is why I personally confess my sins, but I admittedly don't know what it means by repentance or if more is expected.

The bible.

Isaiah 46
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

The way your sovereignty interacts under His is both simple and complex. You cannot read His mind, and He does not tell you everything that He knows. So while you are free to choose from among your available options, you are not capable of surprising God, Who knows the end from the beginning.

You have free will because God wants you to choose to love Him, and He will not force you into that relationship. You also were given the power to reject Him.

1 John 1:9 was written to gnostics who thought they had no sin; that they were not sinners. It was written to unbelievers.

All have sinned...
Romans 3:23

For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...

The wages of sin is death:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...

Blood must be shed for the remission of sins, as the life is in the blood:

Hebrews 9:22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Are you able to piece together when you were forgiven of all of your sins yet?

What you're talking about if magic, not prayer. This kind of experimental setting you're describing would fall under Luke 4:12

>Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

Well you definitely helped me understand the whole part about God knowing everything and still us having free will. So it's less predetermined, and just that he knows everything that could happen.

>1 John 1:9 was written to gnostics who thought they had no sin; that they were not sinners. It was written to unbelievers.

I don't see much reason why an unbeliever would repent differently to a Christian.

I understand the wages of sin being death, though that's generally considered to be "Because we have sin, we die" isn't it? Original sin is what brought death to humanity.

Hebrews is Old Testament isn't it? We're not bound under OT laws if so, see galatians.

And Matthews was talking about Christ himself wasn't it?

>Are you able to piece together when you were forgiven of all of your sins yet?

Of course not, I simply ask for God's forgiveness, and attempt to not make the same mistake next time, while trying to make up for any physical effects my sin might have had, and doing good deeds to counteract it. There's no guarantee that I've actually been forgiven for it.

I'm curious, how do you think we're meant to make up for our sins? Sacrifice?

For you maybe

>I don't see much reason why an unbeliever would repent differently to a Christian.

The gnostics were anti-christians, not just unbelievers. They denied Jesus was God in the flesh; they denied that sin had anything to do with their flesh.

1 John 1:9 is the answer to 1 John 1:8:

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

And remember, this letter is being written specifically to the gnostics, and this is what John said about the gnostics:

1 John 2
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

So it is to those people, those people powered by the spirit of antichrist who denied that Jesus came down from heaven in the flesh, that John is admonishing to admit that they are sinners, and if they will, they will find that they have been forgiven.

>I'm curious, how do you think we're meant to make up for our sins? Sacrifice?

What sacrifice is left, now that the Son of God sacrificed Himself on our behalf?

What is in the OT is revealed in the NT; the slaughter of animals only atoned for sin; it only covered up the sin like a car cover.

Jesus died and removed all sin from all mankind.

Is that a big enough hint to when your sins were forgiven, and how? According to the Law, which Jesus fulfilled?

There's some truth to that, but I don't get your point. God is bigger than any of us can imagine. His hand spans the universe. The earth is His footstool, and He spread out the universe with His hands.

One day, though, I will know Him as He knows me, as He promised that to me, and He always keeps His promises.

>Gnosticism

What is this? And what does this have to do with books that were left out of the Bible? Also are you a catholic? I'm genuinely asking btw, not trying to start a debate.

I'm curious how to approach or what to look for when reading the books left out of the bible, I think they're called apocrypha etc etc

But I'm trying to figure out why those people will be forgiven for just admitting they're sinners, while others don't.

>Jesus died and removed all sin from all mankind.

Source? Jesus freed us from original sin and from the laws of the OT, but there's still absolutely sin, otherwise there would be no need for those on earth(as well as everyone else too obviously)to be judged on judgement day. There would be nothing left to actually judge.

And Jesus did say that he didn't come to destroy the writings of prophets. We're still bound to the commandments, just not stuff like Leviticus, as returning to the laws of old is a return to servitude to original sin.

Do you have a source for it now being impossible for men to sin though?

Note, I don't mean to be argumentative here, I legit do want to learn if I'm wrong here, but there's quotes that talk about repenting and confessing our sins as the path to forgiveness, I don't want to just assume it's not anymore unless there's a lot of proof for it. The whole "Immortal soul on the line" thing is pretty good motivation for that I think.

I was just baneposting christfriend

The gnostics who left the disciples started their own thing, and a century or two later wrote some gnostic gospels that purported to be from various people who knew Jesus. The gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Judas, these are gnostic gospels.

The gnostics refused the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross and believed that only through the acquisition of hidden knowledge could a person become like God.

I'm not a Catholic, no.

Different religions have different canons; some include historical books written between Malachi and Matthew, from 400 BC to at least 32 AD. They are not considered works inspired by God, but they can be interesting to read.

There are other works that are just simply best avoided, like the infancy gospels and the gnostic gospels.

As the bible contains more information than any human being can ever process in a lifetime, I would suggest starting (and ending) with the inspired scriptures, and leaving the uninspired for last.

Tell that to religious people in crisis.

Can anybody answer this for me? Only asked him if he was Catholic because I want an unbiased answer regarding these books that were left out.

You have to dig into the Greek for that. Your English translation leaves you with an if-then proposition that is not present in the Greek.

I would put it like this: If you abandon gnosticism, and agree that you are a sinner, Jesus is faithful and just and has forgiven your sins.

It's also true the other way. If you do not abandon gnosticism, and never confess your sins, Jesus is faithful and just and has forgiven your sins.

What's tripping you up is that the forgiveness of sins has been sold to you as salvation. It is not salvation; it is the forgiveness of sins. It was necessary to remove the sin barrier between God and man so that God's holiness, justice and righteousness could be satisfied, and in His mercy and grace offer mankind His gift of salvation to all who believe.

>>Jesus died and removed all sin from all mankind.

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 3
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

I gotta see that movie. Gets me every time.

So for example, Gospel of Thomas and Judas, they specifically say these things or imply them? Also would it be safe to say that aside from any text that refuses Christ or implies such, could there be some "truth" within in the text?

Also are gnostics mentioned in the regular bible? Like specifically, their refusal of Christ's sacrifice and their folly so to speak? If not, don't worry I'll be careful of what I read in the future, I'm just over all curious about discerning the land mines so to speak.

Yes, I quoted the gnostics referenced in the bible above. The gnostic gospels don't lay out the philosophy of the gnostics; they are fraudulent forgeries purporting to put words in Jesus' mouth that He never said, like all women have to be transformed into men before they can be saved.

They're really just nonsense.

I've prayed before and it works. I think God/Jesus like sincere genuine prayers.

I see, thanks for the help user

Godspeed.

Yeah . and i prayed to allah to get a 20/20 in math and it actually worked . i guess both allah and god jesus exist

The Lord sees all of spacetime at once so, if you say a prayer right now for the victims of 911, for example, the effects will have already happened. The Lord saw your prayer in the future and altered the past, if that was His will.

>then why pray at all?
A good father teaches his son to ask for the things he wants and needs, not to expect them.

You can't measure these effects because they would seem natural and "You shall not test the Lord your God."

>doesn't know allah just means god in arabic

So if forgiveness of sin isn't important in salvation, what is?

You see, I've always assumed that the saving going on was talking about original sin, not stopping all sins forever, because it isn't the last time sin or judgement is mentioned in the bible.

What a great contribution to the conversation at hand.

>A good father teaches his son to ask for the things he wants and needs, not to expect them.

This is how I always viewed the whole praying for forgiveness and confessing your sins. Sure, he already knows that you do, but it still shows your devotion that you did feel like you should ask for it. It's about humbling yourself and not just expecting you'll be all good, similarly to how Lazarus did.

Where is Sola Fide in the Church Fathers?

What you failed to realize is that the central motif of Christ's own work isn't to appease the wrath of an angry god but to save humanity from death.

Even the Bible itself is clear when the whole is seen where the entire salvific work of Christ is described in multiple ways, taking the legalistic description to the max entails a deity that used a scapegoat as a punching bag to relieve his anger upon human beings.

Or in this case, other human beings since by definition, Christ must be one or he isn't really "fully man".

>pray for head
giggity

I'm an atheist but prayer is a good way of explicitly setting goals for oneself and framing past events.

When I do volunteer work through religious groups we often end on prayers and I find it nice so long as they don't beg God too much. It's hard to translate that into something secular.