/vn/ - Fate/Stay Night sucks, Read Subahibi Instead Edition

Not an argument.

Wow Fate fanboys are pretty sensitive babies arent they

You never had an argument Urobushitter cuck.

>Keyfag telling patrician fanbases to fuck off
o i am laffin

>Nasutards actually believe this
>Nasutards implying they've read any of Urobuchi's VNs just like they imply they've read the Fate/Zero LN
Rewrite was written by Tanaka Romeo. You'd know this if you weren't from /a/.

This is what happens when you delude yourself into thinking edgy Naruto is deep.

His argument was that [examples] were deeper than Fate/stay night.

Your counter-argument was ad hom and meme arrows.

i just finished up princess evangile, so i think i may be burnt out on some slice of life for a month or so. sounds like steins gate, it is.

>EOPs actually think the hack Urobutcher is good

Fucking lmao

Kys Urobuchitard

Reminder that Fate was already declared shit by our lord and savior Moogy and that this argument is pointless.

>edgy Naruto is deep.

He says while defending the edgy garbage writer known as Uroboshit.

The irony.

>[examples] were deeper
No they were not. How is that for a counter-argument?

>Fatefags ruin another /vn/
If you want to discuss Nasuverse, please do so in the Nasuverse general.

>[examples] were deeper than Fate/stay night.

Not an argument.

>good art on the left, shit art on the right
What am I supposed to derive from this image?

Reminder that Fate was already declared Kamige and Nasu was declared Kamiwriter by Moogy so this argument is pointless.

8.5 on vndb is not kamige by Moogy standards.

Also CCC =/= Fate, and the latter is the centerpiece of the current discussion you dummy.

>don't discuss the greatest visual novel franchise
>in the visual novel general

>Fate/Extra CCC
>not Fate
wew lad

Actually it's not even an 8.5 lol, it's an 8
>all these novels which have been confirmed much better than any of the shit Nasu has ever pushed out
lmao nasutards on suicide watch

I honestly have more respect for Grisaiatards than I do for Fatetards. At least they finally stopped beating a dead horse after three years.

also it gets even better if you consider that Moogy liked F/HA (which he gave a 7) more than F/SN, so F/SN is probably like a 6 for him.

That means there are hundreds of visual novels that are better than Fate
Literally kusoge

What did he give Tsukihime?

Me too. At least Grisaiafags have a good translation. Fatefags which are also EOP just puzzle the shit out of me. It reads like a fourth grader wrote it.

If Subahibi doesn't come out today I'm ending it.

Not rated

I'm hating this Moogydrone even more than both groups right now.

Why do people even care what Colin thinks? He has objectively shit taste, pic related. He only likes VNs that have kanji puns, high school settings, juvenile sex humour about underage girls and denpa. That's why he likes Romeo so much.

Because the plot, characters, and narrative themes are strong enough to make sitting through a bad translation worth it. It's that simple. Fate is Kamige for a reason. Grisaia is irrelevant because it's populist otaku garbage

>1707x22

I actually don't care, I'm just shitposting. Moogy does indeed have garbage opinions

Seriously. Conjueror was already proven to be the only VN translator who's opinions are worth respecting, and he loves Fate (which he read in Japanese). Moogy should kill himself.

>populist otaku garbage
Fate is far more popular with the otaku crowd than Grisaia.

>that screenshot
*tips fedora*

Well written VNs don't try to pretend they have more depth and structure than they've actually got with pretentious, pseudo-intellectual prose, can't be summed up in a single screenshot and require more than an ounce of an attention span to truly appreciate, because they don't repeat the thematic importance of every scene three or four times until the message sinks in. Pic related, an actual good VN.

Fate is a plotge, people bought it for the story just like Tsukihime. Grisaia's appeal is an edgy gary stu MC and waifus.

>Fate/Stay Night's appeal isn't an edgy gary stu MC and waifus.
hahahahaha

>*tips fedora*
Kirei's speech in that scene alone is better than the entire script of your favorite VN.

>people bought it for the story
The multitude of Saber, Rin, and Sakura merchandise whoring and general waifu shit surrounding those three betrays your argument. There's a reason Takeuchi persuaded Nasu to write in more waifu elements and H scenes and it's because that shit sells.

Saber is arguably one of the most overwhored waifus in all of Japan. Far more than any of the Grisaia heroines.

>Far more than any of the Grisaia heroines.
That's just because Grisaia stopped being relevant years ago.

It's not about the marketing but the actual story content. Grisaia's writing and especially the common route is engineered to put the girls into fanservice-y situations, F/SN has very little of that other than the sex scenes. Naturally any popular thing with attractive female characters is going to get that kind of merchandising (even stuff like Madoka Magica).

the narrative "themes" in this image are something a first week philosophy student learns and the writing is pretty bad because it's a poor and rigid translation

i guess it's deep if you're still in high school or something

Nobody said that single screenshot conveys themes of a 50 hour long novel, dumbass. And I don't disagree that the translation is bad.

Shitty list: image version

yes, i know. i've already read f/sn. i shouldn't have restricted it to that image.

nothing in f/sn is particularly deep.

that's not a bad thing, mind you.

And what about the actual story content of Fate is good while Grisaia is bad?

>nothing in f/sn is particularly deep.
Wrong again, it deconstructs the essential nature of heroic ideals, and an in-depth exploration on what would motivate someone to follow that path. The idea of selfish actions for selfless reasons. A dilemma between logic and emotion (Rin's conflict). The idea of facades and how we hide ourselves within society. Consequentialism and regret; nihilism (Saber's conflict). Existence and individuality (Shirou's "rebirth" following his death in the fire). The meaning of choice. Contrasting of several different philosophies (Pragmatism, Altruism, Idealism, Utilitarianism, etc). Perceptions of people (very overt with the way Shirou perceives his father vs everyone else). Cultural expectations of good and evil (Shirou/Kirei). Consent and fate (Medea and EMIYA). Societal values and morality.

All these themes have been repeated senseless in anime since god knows when

youtube.com/watch?v=Zfx8-c63u0Q

You mean repeated since the days of the Odyssey and Iliad. 100% original works don't exist unless you hear them from some random tribe in Africa that hasn't even discovered fire yet.

all of which have been covered far better by other authors which a first year philosophy student is required to read.

>essential nature of heroic ideals
Richard Wagner
>The idea of selfish actions for selfless reasons
Immanuel Kant, Arthur Schopenhauer
>A dilemma between logic and emotion
René Descartes
>The idea of facades and how we hide ourselves within society.
Georg Büchner
>Consequentialism and regret; nihilism
Nietzsche
>Existence and individuality
Plato
>The meaning of choice
Jean-Paul Sartre
>Contrasting of several different philosophies
basically any philosopher also does this
>Cultural expectations of good and evil
Socrates
>Consent and fate
Aristotle

honestly it sounds like you strung together a bunch of stuff that you thought was deep and put them all in one post thinking it was over-whelming. well, it might be if you aren't well read.

and those are just a few authors/philosophers which tackle the themes you mention, this isn't to mention the multitude of times this has been covered and re-covered in various novels, movies, compositions, etc.

none of these themes are particularly deep, everyone has covered them time and time again, and Nasu doesn't do anything original with them. he doesn't even cover their facets beyond a novice's understanding of them. really, the only philsophical underpinning that he tackles particularly decently is probably Utilitarianism and even then it's pretty difficult to take Utilitarianism seriously considering how silly its logic can get (and how many times it has been utterly destroyed since the days of John Mill).

with the translated version of F/SN you're essentially left with a poorly written and poorly paced hodgepodge of entry-level philosophical ideas and themes which doesn't offer anything outside of a beginners understanding of the themes.

so, again, something that's only deep for high-school students.

BTFO

see

yes, i already saw your post.

it doesn't really detract from my argument; nothing in F/SN is particularly deep.

maybe it would be if those philosophical ideas and themes were explored more than they were (oh god, how many hundreds of hours would Nasu need to do that?).

that's another thing too, Fate is a pretty big waste of time for what you get out of it. it takes 50+ hours for the author to convey entry-level ideas.

>that's another thing too, Fate is a pretty big waste of time for what you get out of it. it takes 50+ hours for the author to convey entry-level ideas.
er, i mean that in the sense that you're exploring it for purely "serious" reasons.

i think it's still a fun visual novel to read for other reasons, but if you're reading Fate primarily for the philosophy and its other alleged themes, than as another poster said in the previous thread; its parts are greater than the whole and it really wastes a lot of your time.

Thank you for not screwing with the OP.

>none of these themes are particularly deep
The human context in which they are explored in the novel makes them deep.
>Nasu doesn't do anything original with them
The visual novel format and how it's utilized is inherently something original unless I am mistaken and Socrates wrote VNs
>he doesn't even cover their facets beyond a novice's understanding of them
reddit.com/r/anime/comments/3w3ufa/spoilers_emiya_shirous_the_japanese_sisyphus/

>nothing in F/SN is particularly deep
Desu you have yet to sufficiently explain how F/SN isn't deep you just namedropped a bunch of authors you thought explored the themes better

>reddit.com/r/anime/comments/3w3ufa/spoilers_emiya_shirous_the_japanese_sisyphus/
Is this where the Camus pasta came from?
Holy molly, what a load of bullshit and projection

(You)

>The human context in which they are explored in the novel makes them deep.
right... so, none of the authors in the above post presented them in a human context? that's hardly deep. satre and büchner wrote plays, wagner wrote opera, descartes reflected a majority of his own philosophy in his meditations which are entirely human. only plato and aristotle are really all that esoteric. the rest are entirely human and presented a great majority of their ideas within a human context.

>The visual novel format and how it's utilized is inherently something original unless I am mistaken and Socrates wrote VNs
that's a result of the medium, sure.

also, i've already read that reddit post months ago. it's unsubstantiated in its evidence and there isn't any proof that Nasu ever consumed Camus's works.

Nasu has mentioned his largest influences over and over again and he primarily (if not entirely) cites Japanese authors.

the purported commentary on Absurdism is basically a cut-and-dry case of a reader projecting his own ideas and interpretations on an established work. it's interesting but it doesn't hold well under scrutiny and it suggests a gross ignorance of the author himself.

>Desu you have yet to sufficiently explain how F/SN isn't deep you just namedropped a bunch of authors you thought explored the themes better
i am not going to waste my time reinstalling Fate and going in-game to directly start citing material. especially on an anonymous image board where this argument will be forgotten in a few hours.

and on the flipside, you just name dropped a lot of stuff without sufficient elaboration as well.

I'm new here. I watched the new fate anime on netflix with my wife, and it was a bit...slow? It seemed like certain fights took literally several episodes and the protag guy seemed incapable of learning or changing.

It also seemed like it was seriously hinting at a lot of fetish-y stuff. Sabers orgasm torture thing seemed very out of place. I did a bit of research, and it was originally a novel of some sort?

Is there a copypasta of a "fate explained for literally noobs" or something?

And what the hell was with the "reality marble" or whatever? When did shiro get telekinetic powers and why are we throwing swords at each other. Bullets have existed for awhile now...

>and the protag guy seemed incapable of learning or changing.
Yeah. That's just Shirou being an actual moron. Nothing really needs to be explained there, to be honest.

lol, this has potential to be pasta

>this has potential to be pasta
I'm not sure if I should be proud or not...

So you responded to my claims that Fate is deep unwilling to prove how it isn't, okay man.

>Nasu has mentioned his largest influences over and over again and he primarily (if not entirely) cites Japanese authors
He mentions his largest pop culture influences, no fucking shit he doesn't say "I wrote this visual novel as a response to John Stuart Mill" or whatever.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but yes it was originally a visual novel. An eroge to precise. There's fucking in it.

You just proved his point that the Camus thing is a huge projection

The new Fate anime is an adaptation of the second third of the story, it doesn't work on its own and it kind of undercuts the point of the work by removing the main character's inner thoughts. We are in the VN general so I feel the need to tell you to read the VN

Lol I don't care what his opinion on that specific analysis is, but the assumption that Nasu has never read Camus because he hasn't namedropped him in an interview is absurd. He is one of the most read LN/VN authors if you look at the breadth of what he explores across his main works

Legitimately not trolling. Just really new.

So an "erog visual novel" is basically a romance novel?

How did this get a multi-season showing on netflix? There doesn't seem to be too much to it...

>read the VN
How would one go about doing this? I'm a mechanical engineer, so I'm not too stupid, but this is a part of Veeky Forums I almost never go too.

That's a really high rating for a pile of garbage like Fata Morgana.

How did you get here?

(You)

How about you read the OP, retard.

>How did you get here?
I am usually from Veeky Forums, but I jumped in here to see if anyone was talking about No Man's Sky. My wife loves it but the FoV makes me want to throw up so I was seeing if there was a fix/workaround. Saw an image of archer in the catalog and clicked on because we finished watching the anime a couple of weeks ago.

Will do jackass.

Nasu doesn't seem that well read. He doesn't really like western culture and he's a pretty big xenophobe. He only just recently read the original material for The Epic of Gilgamesh for CCC. He talked about this in an interview. Considering how entry level EoG is that's pretty funny.

Ok well. This has all the info you need: reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/4rlxls/guide_to_fate_v32/

>first paragraph of visual-novels-general.wikia.com/wiki/Visual_Novels_General_Wiki has "erog" mentioned three times.
Are these like an japanese anime version of romance novels? Is there actually some good stuff here or is it mainly just for porn?

It seemed like the anime had something behind it, but often romance novels aren't known for their deep story or compelling narrative...

Thanks. I'll give it a read.

>he doesn't like western culture so he isn't well read
Uh

Also source on the interview you're referencing?

Most of the philsophy and thematic material you guys are arguing over was primarily established by westerners, so it's relevant.

And I honestly don't remember. It was in one of the usual TM threads on /a/ but that was years ago.

Yeah because someone who doesn't like eastern culture is totally gonna read Lao Zi right

>tfw you'll never be protag-kun with a footlong schlong and have to make by with girls thinking you're fingering them with your pinky even though you're thrusting with all your might

I don't even know where the meme that he hates gaijin came from

The fun of reading a VN like F/SN is more about immersing yourself into the world, story and characters. VNs can give you that kind of experience in a way most other medium can't. Everything else is window dressing.

Considering 7 of 9 servants originate out of Indo-European myths and legends something doesn't add up.

Not to mention the only one based on Japanese history is probably the least developed (outside intentionally mindless Berserker).

>So you responded to my claims that Fate is deep unwilling to prove how it isn't
just as you were unwilling to prove that it WAS (outside of some brief mentions of basic thematic material)

>He mentions his largest pop culture influences, no fucking shit he doesn't say "I wrote this visual novel as a response to John Stuart Mill" or whatever.
Fate is his most successful novel and franchise. Type-Moon's success is built on it. i would presume that Nasu would at least bring up Camus if it was such a prevalent influence on his novel as a whole, especially on the level that the Reddit post is suggesting. i've read a lot of interviews with authors and they're usually pretty specific about their influences, especially regarding their successful material. of course, it isn't necessarily a given that Nasu would do that. the Reddit post is still full of unsubstantiated evidence and projection.

>He is one of the most read LN/VN authors if you look at the breadth of what he explores across his main works
considering you not that well read, how would you know? i can't even call this projection, you're just bullshitting here. doubly so since you're an english-only-reader.

most of the western-sourced characters in Nasu's novel show a lot of ignorance of the original source material. you can put this down to creative liberty maybe, but sometimes the gaps sometimes are so major that one cannot help but think he simply does not have adequate knowledge on this material that he is sourcing (Passionlip is a good example of this).

still a lot of salt when he went out of his way to get Melty tournaments banned in any official events outside of Japan, even though there used to be a considerable Western fanbase for it. it was completely banned from EVO iirc.

there's also a lot of rumors about them showing the door to official localization companies that wanted Fate and Tsukihime, but those are just rumors.

To be fair it isn't like any of those servants act anything like their original versions. At all.

That is false. Saber especially is a very good and accurate portrayal of King Arthur.

Kek.

>considering you not that well read, how would you know? i can't even call this projection, you're just bullshitting here. doubly so since you're an english-only-reader.
re-reading that, that was kind of pointlessly mean.

i don't know if you're actually that well read or not.

yeah, i know. and i lampshaded that in my following post.

i don't really dislike Fate or anything. i just don't think it's particularly deep, that's all.

i know it's not Nasu written but the TM version of Siegfried pisses me off a lot because of that.

>Armor of Fafnir
kiss my ass

That OP must have some mental disorder because always forget to put "English-translated"
betwen "of" and "Japanese".

hahahah nice one bbro xdd epic