Scion marketing manager here

You should have been an enthusiast only brand, not a low rent low income consumer brand.

That means offer everything exclusively in manual, only offer a sporty coupe that's worthy of replacing the Celica, keep the FR-S, sell one of Toyota's Japanese kei cars and make it look tuner oriented

It's not hard to see why the brand failed when you see a bunch of baby boomers and fat women driving xB's around town with 15 inch hubcaps

The real question you should be basking yourself is why did Scion appeal so much to seniors?

too expensive for young americans

look to the S-FR

thats what should have done

and we were raised with branding immunities i think
so u came on too strong
should have just done what u always did and make reliable cars and be understated

>Didn't appeal to young enthusiasts
Here's why
Expensive, riced out FWD shitboxes that can't overtake a stock civic.
Anybody with a brain (see: people who are enthusiastic about cars) wouldn't buy a scion, that's why there were no genuine young enthusiasts buying scion crap until the FR-S rolled out, it was all boomers and mid-life crisis office workers.

It's the exact opposite of Lexus; cheap, plastic, and a young customer focus.

>reliable cars and be understated
That's why the 1st gen tC was appealing, they weren't flashy, they just looked good and had a no nonsense attitude, and for a while even had a supercharger offered.

tC should have been a solid competitor to the Civic but Toyota got lazy and reached into the parts bin like GM.

The 2008 xB was too polarizing because it wasn't cool and hip for 1st gen buyers when it became bloated and ugly, and 2nd gen tCs had a ton of flack for an awful quality interior and lackluster engine/transmission that was just mediocre.

Should have offered actual performance release series editions of your cars instead of rice

Nothing special in it.

TC was cool but the suspension and body roll was too soft and too much. Fwd also.

FRS was cool but same as a BRZ. Also, underpowered, and hard to add power to.

The rest of the lineup was just cheap shitboxes, nothing fun or special.

Here's what you did wrong.

-no fun hot hatch
-no high revving turbocharged car
-not enough rwd
-not enough power
If you could have made just some turbocharged fun wagon or hatchback with RWD you would have been golden

>because Toyota exists

I worked at Toyota when Scion launched, some of you will remember the big thing was "customize your car 1,328 ways" or whatever, was actually a pretty good idea, every xB and tC they sold we were putting $200 aluminum shift knobs, "carbon" center caps, etc. that were all a big moneymaker for the dealership, kind of a babby version of what brands like Porsche and Ferrari do. It just kind of fizzled out, nothing after the xB was very unique or interesting and they stopped pushing all the shitty ricer doodads you could CUSTOMIZE your car with.

I don't know why Toyota and Honda stopped selling good enthusiast cars in the 2000s. Honda at least still has the Si and some 6 speed V6s, but Toyota just dropped all fun cars from their lineup entirely.

Because a 97 integra is faster, handles better, and has the same tier of interior all while looking better and being more fun to drive. I'm a bmw fancuck so I don't have a dog in the fight, but scions are shit and I expect female college freshman to be behind the wheel everytime I see one

$200 aluminum shift knobs

I wonder how much they were upselling those for. Doesn't make much sense since their demographic was also the poorest.

They entered the 'GM Zone' where they realized people would still buy their stuff regardless of how much they spend on R&D, quality control, or every other facet of manufacturing. Although they also had the added benefit of near-legendary reliability to coast off of as well.

Complacency is generally what gets manufacturers in trouble. People eventually grow bored of shitboxes and want to see something interesting the manufacturer is making.

Gotta consider Lexus when talking about Toyota however, Acura hasn't done nearly as much.

It makes perfect sense. Poor pople are impulsive. That's why they buy economy vehicles for 20k with crippling interest rates instead of buying barely used vehicles for 2-3k on Craigslist.

The whole thing was it was rolled into the financing of the car (people who buy sub $20k new cars do it because they don't have any money), so you have this group of people that would otherwise buy 5 year old Civics and put a bunch of ricer crap on them, but now they could buy a new car and not have to pay upfront for the "mods." I don't know how much the salesmen got by selling the options, IIRC the buyer had a big sheet they could check off (and I'm sure they thought they were "building" the car to spec, not having techs swap out the stuff on existing cars from the lot)

What group of people really drove this car anyway, because I know teens didn't.

>hubcaps

*sigh*

I bought a monogram tC, is nice but coulda had a V6.

Honestly though i would have been willing to pay a bit more for a V6 option.
Also Reece's cup car.

Honestly, a TRD FRS with a Supercharger making about 220whp/240 torque would of saved the brand.

I drove a new iM the other day ago and I don't see why this car didn't sell.

It's way nicer inside than a Honda fit and Toyota is basically giving them away now. It was pretty slow, but it's not terrible or anything.

>a TRD FRS with a Supercharger making about 220whp/240
would have costed 60 grand, noone would buy it and threads would be about how an ecoboost mustang has a better $/hp ratio.

or just put a UZ in there.

Because it's too late, people have their minds made up about the brand and even if there was going to be a complete overhaul of their lineup, it would take almost 10 years to turn the brand image around.

Because FF can't compete.

>hideous
>anemic
>no aftermarket if you want to make your car feel less gutless
Yeah, I wonder why

Did you drive the 6 speed? If so how was it?

Because they offered 280hp camrys

I think it looks pretty good, better than a Fit or Fiesta at least.

It's pretty slow yes, but it's not like it's slower than the competition or anything.

It has a 2ZR-FAE which is the same thing they put in the Elise.
They didn't have a 6spd on the lot, the CVT wasn't bad though. It was really smooth and it didn't feel like a typical CVT, at least in the sport mode. It does a good job mimicking a 7spd auto.

>CVT

Because they're just rebadged and rebodied versions of the same old painfully boring cars.

>better than a fiat or Fiesta
We aren't setting our sights very high now are we?

>It was really smooth and it didn't feel like a typical CVT, at least in the sport mode. It does a good job mimicking a 7spd auto.
That's the worst part about modern CVT cars, you use a CVT because it can CONTINUOUSLY VARY the gear ratio, not so you can pick some arbitrary gear ratios out and shift between them to please stupid fucks who want it to feel like their old autos do.

Celicas always had camry engines

Fiesta has been best in class for a while m8.

Should have made a carbureted v8 with coke bottle styling, easily removed smog equipment made in Japan and comes with a pack of Japanese cigarettes. I would have bought one.

>Scion
heres a real answer
20 f here
i feel like the car is too shiny and too roundish towards the sides. like a neet family car.

For morons.
The fiesta is a shit car.
>FF heavier than FR
Top kek

Don't listen to these assholes. I own a Tc and I love it, I have beat mustangs and camaros in races. All I ask is that you include an option for gold rims

BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T DO THIS WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THIS

>hurr make other stuff then FF
You know that's not true. All they had to do was put a bit of effort into making the cars fun. Soichiro Honda didn't die for this

I legit like the way the gt86 looks, and I'll probably buy the 2017 release unless something else catches my interest. No, it isn't fast but I'm not looking for fast. I'm looking for an entry level, affordable, well-handling sports car and that's what the frs/brz/gt86 offer.

That looks like cheap shit

I test drove the Scion iM a few weeks ago. The car was very fun to drive, but the engine doesn't have enough power. It was fun for the moment, but living with it would be a total pain in the ass. I didn't bother with the CVT. I also test drove a manual Honda HrV and that was a way funner driving experience.

I cant justify paying 4k$ more on a lifted Fit though.

Young people didn't buy them. Old people bought them because they were easy to get into and out of. Young people wanted a sporty coupe, which scion didn't provide at the time.

Plain and simple.

still looks way better than what we got and would make it cheaper and give more of a fucking reason to buy the car.

>well handling
Might want to change the tires as soon as you get it then.
>kek

I'm just listing off its competitors, you can get one of these cars for $16-17k pretty easily. That is brand new with a full warranty and the free maintenance shit. I'd rather have that over a used Civic or something.
They have the typical CVT feeling in the regular "eco" mode and the Sport Mode gives you the fake gears. You're not gonna go fast in either mode, but there's a noticeable difference in how it behaves.

I'd really like to see how a 6spd is though, but I've read that the CVT is better since the 6spd has super long throws and apparently has a pain in the ass clutch.

Fwd basically

oh, you're one of those people.

Beacuse it was marketed towards hippie homosexuals

Fuck off, we know you're lying.

There are 0 girls on Veeky Forums. ZERO.

Could you be more wrong?

>neet
>owning car
>owning babbies entry level first sports car

the fuck?

it's gay

The original xB was roomy af for a compact car with lots of storage capacity. Great features for an economy car, good on gas and cheap. Honestly not a bad car for what it was.

>make a brand that appeal to people with an income of 10k-20k a year
>complain that it doesn't sell

>fwd
>shit engine
>no turbo on any model or trim
You got the designs right, but not the engine or drivetrain.

It's like you guys wanted it to die as fast as possible to get dat paper.

Also this bait is delicious.

The American need for making up new brands for everything is one of the dumber things your culture offers. It's a fucking Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Mazda/Whatever; why the fuck can't you stupid assholes have an NSX with a Honda badge on it? Why can't you accept that Honda makes not just Civics and Accords but also nice sports cars? It works for the rest of the world! And how the fuck is calling an Audi "an expensive VW" even a thing?!? You do realize other cultures don't do that shit and are better for it, do you?

>>shit engine
bro in what way?
2AR-FE will outlive the rest of the car and it makes some decent torque, with some weight reduction it could be pretty okay.

Oh, so it IS a gussied-up toyota with a badge swap?

I don't buy toyotas, because I want a car that will keep running. No matter what fucking badge it has.
I didn't even go visit the dealership for anything japanese; they're mired in a hell of bad traffic, and only dealerships because you can't gave anything other than an industrial park on an old landfill site. And since all the industrial jobs left, they're selling cars on the land instead.

>I don't buy toyotas, because I want a car that will keep running. No matter what fucking badge it has.
okay b8

2.4l engine makes less than 150hp
My 1.8l makes 160hp
For the displacement, it's fucking sad.

You want to appeal to the young crowd? You should have made cheap/sporty vehicles with lots of aftermarket.

You did the opposite.

>2.4l engine makes less than 150hp
wot
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scion_tC#Specifications_2

>"customize your car 1,328 ways"
>I wonder how much they were upselling those for

it was utter crap they way dealers handled the addons. Dealers didn't want to spend time post sale pedaling "sport pedals" so they shoved a bunch of accessories in as dealer installed options. There were no cars on the scion lot that didn't have at least 2k in decorations. Then they pulled the PURE PRICE® bullshit to check mate idiots. So what was supposed to be a base price of 17k became 21,999 after the dealer pre-customized an automatic TC for your [(their)] continence. The whole customization bs was to let customers choose, not dealers.

on the op's topic. scion was super dead to me when the FRS pop out. Toyota announced that it'll cost no more than 20k. hype intensifies. By the time it was released that figure had ballooned to 24k and some change. still an alright deal but not the ultra low cost fun machine it was claimed to be. Then the dealers got a hold of them but this time they didn't pimp yo ride fo you to jack up the price. They just jacked the price up and called it "MARKET VALUE ADJUSTMENT" on the sticker. So 24k turned into 29-30k because the dealer knew you would or would wait till someone would. and it worked. Everyone had to have the 0-60 in 7 seconds god machine and was willing to pay "ILL SUC YO DIC" price for it. Which pretty much put this car in the hands of mid lifes most of the time.

to be fair, my tC came with leather seats, asswarmers, voice nav, keyless entry/start. Mine was a manual so i think the manual knobs all had leather, but this was for $21k before taxes n shit.

>the American need

Stop right there euro trash, it's nothing more than what businesses have done, not American citizens

Factory riced vehicles... lack of focus on motorsports... cars drove like boring appliances...

I mean, it's like you guys were trying to make vehicles for the early 2k FnF crowd. Those people don't really exist anymore.

i hope to god the 2017 gt86 is actually cheap.

a friend of mine was the literal target demographic for scion

>16 year old upper-middle class white american male
>parents buy him a 1G Scion xB in highschool
>he drives it still (10 years later!) and is convinced its the best car ever; dream car is an FR-S

overall he's had a few problems with it, but his dad pays to take care of them eventually. they own 3 scion xBs

>hatchback with RWD

RWD sports car and FWD hatch here

>ruining the interior space of your FWD hatch with a driveshaft, trans tunnel, and rear diff/suspension

whats the fucking point

this makes sense, my friends scion XB came with some ricey shit from the previous owner. (who sold or got the car repossessed or something)

>blue interior LED lighting (pretty cool in 2006)
>carbon fiber and aluminum shit knobs and e-brake lever
>blue radiator hoses (????)

trying to appeal to a different base compared to the what the first line up appealed to

that plus the fact, that new base wasn't interested in one buying an unproven brand in terms of aftermarket mods past shitty body kits

look at all the other popular hoon cars, they all have a really strong aftermarket when it comes to all manner of mods, the scion brand didn't get that much out of the gate, and it suffered and ultimately failed to catch on with the performance base they were looking to capture a marketshare of, if you could've gotten other manufacturers to make high level bolt on kits to up horse power and handling, you could've got some people to get really interested

but if you just stuck with the base your first line up went after ie., the people looking for decent looking, reliable cars, they could afford to buy new

It would be great if you are who you claim to be, lol. As a 1st gen TC owner I can say that the brand suffered from an identity crisis, pure and simple. Too many wacky looking cars that were simply unappealing, underdeveloped and under-powered. Not to mention that this car uses 1 quart of oil every 600 miles. Since new. And that complaints to the dealership and to Toyota were fruitless. Now that Toyota has acknowledged that the wrong sized piston rings were used, they make me jump through hoops to remedy the problem. Lol, taking it in for 'inspection' the dealership tried to convince me that I needed 2k in repairs 'before' they could determine if the rings were indeed the issue. Really? So, yeah, because Toyota has cut so many corners in an attempt to be the world's biggest manufacturer, they seem to have lost sight of how to make an appealing automobile. PS. I will never buy another Toyota product again. Cheers!

had the TC. Loved the practicality of the car. And the reliability. But hte chassis was not at all rigid.. The whole glass roof thing worsened it. I learned Scion did a show car with no intention of making a good enthusiastic car.

Young enthusiast did not buy them. Older folks did.

instead of focusing on making a reliable option for children and teens you made a car marketed to children and teens it was close but clearly aimed at kidults

pretty sure their target demographic was lower middle class beaners.

personally
>RWD
>engines werent able to extract power easily

The tC was the only "sports" car out of the range until the FRS came out. FWD and minimal power options killed Scion's chances for the enthusiast market. The supercharger kit was too god damned expensive.

I considered the FRS heavily until they announced no super/turbo kit available because Subaru were being bitches (didn't want to eat WRX sales.)

Also, 24k for 200hp eat my ass. They got a lot of the 240sx market but I already owned one for 11 years now, I already have a low hp RWD sports coupe. I don't want another one.

The lineup needed the following, unchanged in appearance;

>sixth gen Celica GT-Four
>Caldina GT-Four
AWD turbo alternatives to the WRX.

>seventh gen Celica
Optional factory rice aero kit. 2ZZ a best, could be made to compete with the Civic Si without Lotus wigging out over a tuned up 2ZZ.

>MR-S
Stealerships hiked the prices up. An affordable midship would be loved by all. Optional Camry V6 trim.

>TRD supercharger for the FR-S

>whats the fucking point
Because RWD is fucking fun. BMW compacts proved you can do a small RWD budget hatchback with only 160bhp that is a blast to drive, the only thing you have to do is make it look less like an aborted afterthought than the Germans did.
>b-but compacts sold like shit in US
Because brand. People don't go to BMW to buy a hatch, they go to buy a sportscar, moreso in 90s. They sold very good in Europe.

That bullshit center of the dash guage cluster put me off of buying a 1st gen Scion Xb.
Still want one but im not dealing with that shit.

yea the brand and pricing, fucking killed them here

you could either get one of those or a pigfat american sports car, apparently sitting on the couch and eating nachos is a sport here in america

Pandering. We put on exterior mods and styling to look unique, not buy a pre-modded car that is what a think tank THINKS looks cool.

The XB was awesome though

Euros do it too. Look at Skoda being basically the budget mirror of VW with lower build quality for base models going for cheaper. They don't have a single unique car, only derivatives that would put even GM to shame.

They could finally release the 4x4 Fabia that they keep rallying for 20 years now, but I guess they'd rather have the market taken by the new Focus.

But that's why Scions came sparse with hubcaps because they wanted the buyer to customize them.

Once gen Xrs stopped buying and the millennial entered the market, they realized millennials are lazy shits who couldn't be bothered to mod their own car so they started coming pre riced.

I want a SF-R with a tiny TARBO on that 1.5L. Sort of like the 1.0L economist 3cyl fiesta. 200-220hp mark.

No point in buying a $35000 fr-s then dropping $5k on TARBO and ruining warranty on a new car, when you can buy a 350z for 9k that's still faster.

They should have never sold anything above 20k and all their cars should have been sporty with good engines. Their accessories were too pricey.

Cars only get street cred if they're popular to tune and affordable. Scion didn't have much aftermarket and none of their cars can pull up on a Civic Si.

A 16 year old Toyota GT-S is still faster than anything Scion offers, think about how pathetic that is.

Celica GT-S*

fine if that's what you wanted. But the dealers made sure that every car didn't leave with out some rice on it. whether it was a 200 dollar shift knob or 2k in over priced suspension mods. some folk are just fine with standard features and dealers chose what you wanted.

It kind of kills what toyota was trying to do attracting younger buyers who don't have the money for a new 15k car let alone one that started at 17 w/ 2k in bs stuck to it. Probably why most scion owners that bought it new were older than the targeted age group.