Is suicide selfish and are you an asshole if you do it?

suffering is just a staple of life. The only way to deal with it is by having a good support network. Now if you kill you self because you are suffering you might be an integral part of someone else's support network. You are causing someone else to suffer bacause you couldn't handle your suffering. It does seem selfish to say.
>since I can't handle my share of suffering now you have to suffer more

Is it reasonable to say that since you did not grant yourself life that you are not entitled to take it

>>since I can't handle my share of suffering now you have to suffer more
Except no suicidal person is saying this, or ever would.

This logic is terrible because you are basically saying the person who then gave life has the rights. If you turn it around, that means a father can rape and kill his daughter because his sperm granted the daughter's life.

>no suicidal person is saying this, or ever would
Well of fucking course they don't literally outright say it or even consider that they might cause another person tremendous grief but it is what is what happens when someone kills themselves

Fuck off, it was your own choice as a parent to have a kid. Now bear with the consequences.
It's like saying a business shouldn't be allowed to fail because the founder poured resources into creating it.

>if you turn it around, that means a father can rape and kill his daughter because his sperm granted the daughters life
You are being stupid on purpose right?

>human life is the same as a business

>human life has inherent value
Prove it fag.

No?

How does your logic work? You are saying that someone is not entitled to take his own life because he did not create his own life. You can't say this without saying then that the creators of said life are entitled to take away life they created.

If said life was given to me, how is it not mine to with it as I wish?

>inherent value
I bet you use the word "spook" a lot don't you

Selfish? Yes. Are you an asshole? Depends.
My dad killed himself 3 days before my 18th birthday, looking through his records I found that he had an untreatable heart condition exacerbated by his long years of smoking and heavy drinking. Had he fought the condition he would have bankrupted himself and had decided to end his life so that a majority of his resources passed to me. Did I think of him as an ass? Not even willing to stick around to watch me become a man? Absolutely, but I understand why he did it

Afraid to answer?
It's alright user, just admit you're making an argument from feels and you cannot in any way argue it rationally. Everyone knows it already anyway.

If something is given to you as a gift sure you can destroy it but it makes you a massive twat

If someone gifts me a sickness and I heal it am I a twat?
What about if someone gives a shit, am I supposed to keep it?
What about a very sweet dog puppy, which however grows up to be very unstable and aggressive due to causes outside my control, can I put him down?

I was right wasn't I? Lol
What did you want answerd? because there were a couple things that you said
I'll try my best bud

>if someone gifts me a sickness and I heal it am I a twat?
>is someone gives a shit
user you know damnwell that's not what I fucking meant by gift

No, you weren't right. I don't get much of a chance to use the word "spook" because Stirner threads are retards collectives where 99% doesn't understand the concept, and using outside those threads gives turds like you an opportunity to divert the discussion away from your bullshit untenable opinions.
I want you to prove me how does life have inherent value.

I notice that you skipped quoting the third sentence, which was meant exactly to illustrate to you how even a nice well meant gift can turn out to be troublesome enough to warrant gtting rid of it.

>suicide selfish/asshole
Everything we do while living is selfish. Putting an end to it simply ends that selfish existence, as a last bit of selfish act.

The whole notion of "life is sacred and suicide is selfish" is derived from a theistic underpinning. "God gave life and if you take it away, you're selfish". If you remove this theistic underpinning, it loses all its support.

Suicide is an natural response to an extreme stressful situation where the brain is forced into extreme conditions. Whether it be rape, guilt, fear, shame, loneliness, revenge (yes it can happen), etc

In your example, the living friends have rationalized themselves as finding no fault, so they blame the dead person. The dead person's rational is simple and clear, but the living wont/cant accept it for whatever reason (which I suspect is due to selfish reasons). He got tired and decided not to go further.

>I want you to prove me how does life have inherent value
Would you also like me to prove that God exist
Or maybe that the world isn't real and we all live in a simulation
If there was a definitive answer we wouldn't even be talking about this would we
The only thing I can say is that I can't prove what you are asking me to prove but you can't prove that life has no inherent value

Your right, it was a good example of how a gift can turn out to be a burden which is why I skipped over it but since you want to discuss it.

>What about a very sweet dog puppy, which however grows up to be very unstable and aggressive due to causes outside my control, can I put him down?
I would say that it's certainly more understandable if you did put him down. However how can you know for certain that the dog is a lost cause? You could try having him trained or something else. I wouldn't say you are entirely "justified" in killing just because he is a burden.
Even now I'm having trouble coming up with a response because it's not as black and white as saying
>it became a burden so you are now entitled to killing it
I feel like I have even responded to your point properly

I'm assuming you're joking, but it doesn't really matter how other people feel on the matter. The guy specified could have had his own children and still committed suicide without being actively 'selfish'. It was just a decision to leave the living and nothing more, even if it seems sort of scummy.

But overall, it was the parent's decision to raise a child and pour money into it. Are you saying we should always be indebted to someone who raises us, and if we do something they don't agree with, we're selfish? Forever? That's disgusting, and your logic is flawed.

>i raised my child therefore I own it
Get with the times, great-great-great-grandpa. Children are not property. They haven't been that way since child labor laws and such in the 1800s. Infact once you turn 18, legally, you aren't legally responsible for them anymore.

People who actively want to hurt themselves are not sane and need professional help, you literally cannot argue against it

>Children aren't property
>Therefore it's alright for them to kill themselves
>It's alright for them to be full retard

Look man, just because your actually fucking retarded, doesn't mean its actually alright for you to kill yourself.

Wanting to kill yourself is LITERALLY a mental problem. Instead of offing yourself, causing everyone around you problems (ie being selfish as you're putting your own desires before the desires of others; the very definition of being selfish) get someone to help you out.

>instead of offing yourself, get someone to help you out
So assisted suicide is preferable?

suicide is protest but also apathy. simply "i will not deal with this".

thinking you can criticize it shows you love assigning blame more than having living people.

When you're a free person, you have the right to take your own life. The reason may differ from person to person, but its generally a bleak situation where people take their life. Not a happy one.

When you have an incurable disease, when you're in so much pain everyday with little to no hope of recovery, when you're other option is to be a slave to someone or be raped daily, etc.

But when you suffer from a mental illness you aren't yourself
Would you be okay with mentally retarded person taking their life?

Making someone else clean up your mess is selfish. Jump off a bridge ffs

Enjoy that money your dad died for.

I think you should look up the definition of selfish faggots. Yes it's selfish.

You have this retarded spook about what selfish means, and that being selfish is wrong and being entitled to something makes you not selfish.

If you were an egoist, it would be obvious to you that you'd be doing everything for selfish reasons.

>Should someone be forced to continue living for the sake of his friends and family even if he isn't happy with life?
This is a completely different question from asking if it is selfish. Doing something for yourself because only you want it is always selfish.

Mental retardation is a physical phenomena that lasts life time.

"Mental illness" is not magical fantasy ethereal, but rather physical in nature. You don't suicide when you're sad or when you've spilled milk.

I get the feeling you're either being obtuse or you're a retard. Its not that hard to understand why a person would consider suicide. There are plenty of things worse than death. On top of this, each person has their own version of what is considered worse than death. In each of those scenarios, suicide would be preferable than living.

It's technically selfish, but it's not selfish in the way you should go "wow what an asshole."

Nobody, not even your family, is entitled to you. Yes, you'll probably cause them distress for losing you, but you're not theirs to lose. You didn't "take" anything from them by taking your own life, yet at the same time if you weighed their emotions over your own and were "selfless" about it, you'd likely place higher value on not hurting them than you would on killing yourself, and not kill yourself.

>Nobody, not even your family, is entitled to you.
You are not entitled to your family.

Just because it's a personal choice doesn't mean it's not selfish either way, especially if you had other options at the time that could possibly help you, and without the severe psychological impact it has on people you know.

You are morally obligated to get treated before you go through with suicide as a last resort. By not doing so, you admittedly prioritize a quick escape from suffering rather than attempt to find at the light at the end of the tunnel. It's selfish, undoubtedly, to kill oneself without at least trying to treat yourself first.

>You are morally obligated to get treated before you go through with suicide as a last resort. By not doing so, you admittedly prioritize a quick escape from suffering rather than attempt to find at the light at the end of the tunnel. It's selfish, undoubtedly, to kill oneself without at least trying to treat yourself first.
But I can not make a genuine effort to get treated as long as the people offering treatment retain the authority to keep my alive against my will. You do realize they can put you in a straight jacket and send you to a madhouse where you have no rights if they think you're going to commit suicide, right?

and the majority of those reasons are directly caused by mental illness.

Physical issues generally have treatments, if they don't then you're out of luck.

Mental illness is not well understood, so the whole scene is devolved into prescribing medicine that might or might not work. There is no silver bullet to mental illness, so in a sense, its in an even worse situation than physical illness.

That's an odd statement, not because you are wrong but because you claim that because they think one will still kill themselves they will be locked up. Do you have any examples of this I can read about?

To further this, if you go into treatment with the mindset that you still were going to kill yourself does that not defeat the purpose of getting help?

>That's an odd statement, not because you are wrong but because you claim that because they think one will still kill themselves they will be locked up. Do you have any examples of this I can read about?
Are you seriously this unaware? If you are a "danger to yourself or others" in other words, suicidal, you can be committed involuntarily and interned indefinitely.

psychologytoday.com/blog/demystifying-psychiatry/201010/can-the-mentally-ill-be-hospitalized-against-their-will

>To further this, if you go into treatment with the mindset that you still were going to kill yourself does that not defeat the purpose of getting help?
You, or someone said that a person should pursue all possibilities before choosing death. But that involves a risk of ending up in a state worse than death.

>Is it selfish?

Depends on the context. Probably. When it's life and death who really cares about who's being "selfish".

I've heard this 100s of times throughout my life whenever suicide happens or gets brought up. Yeah sure the person was probably being selfish by offing themselves.

You know who is really selfish though? The people who claim to love and care for the person so much. Where were they when suicide was dying, in so much pain and agony every day that he/she chose to die instead of keep trying.

Then at the funeral everyone talks about how great the deceased was. The throw together several positive adjectives 4 at a time. Sometimes they even have the audacity to claim the deceased "loved life". Here you have 10s of people all gathered together mourning the life of the deceased; when with the same amount of effort they could have helped pull them out of their suicidal depression or at least gave it their very best shot.

>You know who is really selfish though? The people who claim to love and care for the person so much. Where were they when suicide was dying, in so much pain and agony every day that he/she chose to die instead of keep trying.
That doesn't make the person who commit suicide not selfish. It's not about saying who was really selfish. Reality is that everyone is selfish. Fucking spooks. If your family was a union of egoists, you'd all have a common understanding that everything everyone did was selfish and be okay with that.

> when with the same amount of effort they could have helped pull them out of their suicidal depression or at least gave it their very best shot.
You do realize suicidal people shut others out right? Not every wrist slasher is just someone looking for attention. Apparently that's you though.

It's only selfish if you have other people who care about you that you're leaving behind.

If you're totally alone then it's not selfish. If you're totally alone, it's also understandable why you would commit suicide in the first place.

No it's not selfish, just a really stupid fucking thing to do. What matters is that someone who was in more pain than he could bear decided to end it. All your friend is doing is showing himself up for what a twat he is by being more interested in assigning blame than thinking about how he would feel if he were in that situation. Lots of people think they're strong and would never commit suicide because it's selfish but to be perfectly honest they don't know shit. When you're suicidal all normal thinking goes out the window and whatever you thought before, or how you thought you'd act in this situation becomes completely worthless.

There are different levels of suffering, because one person can handle it, it doesn't mean another can

Many suicidal people consider it a lot

Suicide should be punished by death. Same goes for littering.

Being suicidal is being the ultimate outsider. From a suicidal perspective, all of human civilisation looks like a "Cult of Life", a pointless religion dedicated to the proposition that living is important. I'm sure some people here remember what I mean.

I think this position is a valid position to be honest. It certainly makes 100% sense at the time.

In the end, nobody truly cares what anyone else thinks, unless they already agree. So who cares about other people's judgment? Just make sure you really think about your logic first, and leave a detailed explanation.

If it's a rational or stoic suicide no one who truly loves you would think its selfish. To love somebody means more than to simply enjoy their company, it means to internalize their happiness as your own and their suffering also. If you know that your friend is without hope and will continue to suffer more than he can ever come to cope with, his suicide should not be viewed as selfish. His death will inflict pain upon you, but it will be less than the pain that he was destined to suffer. That you ever had such a friend is one of life's great gifts.

Well no shit it's selfish. It's all about you and your life, not how it would effect anyone else.

Morality and rights are separate issues. But it's inherently selfish, and that's not up to debate.

Think of it like this. You don't exist literally 'forever'. You DO exist for a small timeframe allowed by existence (100 years give or take out of many billions of years).

How can it be considered selfish, when in the grand scheme of things you pretty always never existed, and so did everyone else even those you share your existence with.

So, on the basis of contingency and ignorance, suicide is selfish?
The implication is supposed to be that it is a result of ingratitude. Isn't an irrational bias of a person who enjoys or values life, that all can? You happen to feel that life has inherent value, and that's your only argument: that another must be able to feel it too?
Being morally unable able to commit suicide is that ultimate lack of freedom. To want to have an eternal recurrence is ideal, the best, sure. But that is not just ideal but also only possible under the condition of freedom, the freedom to not need to make convictions that have no proof.

You're denying the community the value of your time and work so yes everyone that commits suicide should be officially shamed as having committed a hate crime against the community

Nothing about that logic seems terrible