Pic: 1960's Afghanistan classroom

Pic: 1960's Afghanistan classroom.

What went so horribly wrong? Reasonable arguments please. The world would be infinitely nicer with a liberalised (islamic) culture.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure
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LMAO LET'S SUPPORT THE FREEDOM FIGHTERS

WHAT COULD GO WRONG

Islamic communism

The Cold War, friend.

Power shifted from the liberal, open-minded Tajiks to the backwards Pashtun and Hazara.

There are actually more Tajiks in Afghanistan than Tajikistan fyi.

>What went so horribly wrong?
Gee I wonder if it has anything to do with that other thing that went horribly wrong in practically all Middle Eastern countries...
The world would be infinitely nicer with a liberalised (islamic)
>islamic
No.

The eternal Pashtun

I'm guessing that most of the images like this were from Kabul

The Cold War. Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. The West encouraging, arming and training the more radical, hard-line Islamist groups.

>Islam AND Communism

jesuschristhowhorrifying

Does this picture represent the average Afghan at the time? I have a feeling that back than there was a tiny westernized minority in the larger cities, but the majority were still forcing their women to wear burkas etc. Then the Taliban took over and started to oppress this small urban westernized minority, destroying their way of life.

Don't be a fool.

The people you see in this pic were the top 1% elites. It's not representative, the average Afghan woman back then lived in a bumfuck village, wore the veil just as her female ancestors did and had never attended a school.

1950's Saudi Arabian women on an outing to the desert.

There are different Afghanistan ethnicities. Tajiks tend to be very secular, and most of the Islamic Golden Age was due to their ancestors even.

Pashtun and Hazara wee the idiots living in bumfuck villages.

I take it you're an American considering you don't know shit about Afghanistan? You do realize, Tajiks are actually whiter than you and many cluster more closely to Proto-Indo-Europeans, even?

You do realize that wearing the chadri is basically necessary outside of cities in Afghanistan right? Dust storms are lethal.

It wasn't a religious thing until the Taliban took power and forced everyone to start wearing it. It was just practical.

>Tajiks are actually whiter than you
Source?

Iran 1960s

>Around 10% of Tajiks are said to have blond hair, more prevalent in the Zarafshan and Pamir region, where they are known as Pamiri people.[44]

A lot have Mongoloid admixture due to Mongol invasions, but many have high R1a %, which is associated with Proto-Indo-Europeans of Southern Russia (look up Kurgan Hypothesis).

In general, Tajiks were more educated and well-behaved than Hazara or Pashtun retards.

I'm not at all for Communism, but so far it was the most effective ideology to counter Islamism. The few relevant Muslim groups that are currently secular pretty much became that way after embracing a form of Communism. Pic related, Kurdish Nationalists became pretty much the only non-fundamentalist group after based Apo came along and converted them to his version of Marxism. Other examples are Azerbaijan and Albania and to a lesser extent, the Central-Asian Turkic nations: all successfully secularized after a long history with Communism. Even though I don't like it as an economic system, I have to admit that it proved to be the best antidote for Islamism, which is still much worse.

Many Tajiks also have red hair.

>In general
Separatist Kurds are retards. I am tired of Americans giving their parochial opinions on the Middle East.

Bullshit. Why weren't men wearing it then? And why were women wearing it indoors or in villages?

>why weren't men wearing it then

Buddhist Afghanistan was best Afghanistan.

So, do rural Afghan men wear a veil, too?

t. urk. It's no wonder they want to separate when all the countries they are living in are becoming Islamist shitholes.

See

>What went so horribly wrong?
I to the S to the L to the...

You're just biased to see western culture as good

Spot the difference. Also, the argument is not only about burqas, but about being westernized or not.

I am not a Turk. My approach to improving the Middle East is beyond your comprehension to understand, and it goes against US interests. It aligns more with Russian interests and would invariably lead to a multipolar world. I could tell you it, if you want.

...

The difference is that one is meant to be worn while herding and fighting, and the other is meant to be worn while doing more domestic duties.

It was still a highly patriarchal society retard.

Nice cherrypick but I don't think that's the average rural Afghan male's wear

Those are Hazara. In countries like Afghanistan, you have to think of secular values, intelligence,and power as being stratified according to ethnicity.

I think the Pashtun are the most violent Afghanistan ethnicity, and guess who the USA sided with?

>what is cherrypicking

It's another case of elites being out of touch. Life and dress wasn't anything like this in the countryside.

Regardless, aren't Pashtuns.....the majority?
All you guys are saying is the majority of Afghans are radicals lol

They should not be the majority. There is a significant Tajik population too, and they are the ones that deserve to be the majority. If the USA really cared about stabilizing Afghanistan, it would be culling the Pashtun instead. The Tajiks were the ones that were secular.

The Hazara are poor leftovers of the Mongol invasions, but they deserve to be helped to some extent. They are easily brainwashed due to being poor.

It is true, the Pashtun are the radicalized ones, and they are better off never to have existed.

There are about 38-46% Pashtun and 37-39% Tajiks. It would be desirable to massacre the Pahstun instead of the Tajiks, but the Americans did the reverse because they are fucking bonehead retards.

Soviets and Americans

>Tajiks
>Pashtuns
How come everywhere that there are different ethnic groups there is conflict. But my professor at the uni, Rabinovic Scheckelberg Silverstein, said that divertisty is strenght...

t. Burger
Tell me more about how the Kurds are justified in Killing Assyrians and Turkmen because of "Muh Saddam" despite the fact that Thise two groups were also victims of Saddam

USSR and CIA involvement in Afghanistan

Please stop posting this fuckstupid image. Those are mujahideen, the Taliban didn't exist until 1994.

>implying the Taliban wasn't the result of the Mujahideen

Learn about chronology in history sheep.

>he doesn't know what the ISI and GID are
>he fell for the "blame America first" meme

America may have offered them the cup but they gladly drank from it, they should be the ones that should shoulder the blame

pretty sure most conflict in afghanistan has little if anything to do with its ethnic diversity

>implying the funds given to the Mujahideen did not help create Taliban

That's not what I'm implying at all, but thanks for trying to start an argument about nothing.

>pretty sure I won't let reality get in the way of my utopian fantasies
Did you bother to read the thread fag?

>region is filled with billionaire sand niggers
>nah, must be America's fault these ragheads took over that country

It isn't even that America is blameless here.

America's relationship with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia was instrumental to the rise of modern jihadism.

>What went so horribly wrong?

>1978: Commie Coup de Etat happens
>new government immediatly splits and goes full reatrd
>litterally destabalising everything

>commie government
>this triggers the islamists
>this triggers the west

>west support islamists against commie governemnt
>soviet union invades "to reatore order"
>litterally a decade of war
>1989:soviets fuck off, this isnt going anywhere

>mujahedin fight commie government for 3 more years until it collapes
>1992
>islamist form new government
>split into shit ton of faction according to ideological and ethinc lines
>fight a bit more
>enforce islamic law and custums in the entire country
this is where it went majorly wrong
just to finish the story
>1994: one faction among the islamists rises and gains ground and power
>the taliban
>1996: they won the whole thing...
>1996-2001 they run the place, are even more dickish than preavious rulers
>inside job happens
its all know from that point on...

So yeah it was irredeamable since the point where the Commies lost the war...

>It wasn't a religious thing until the Taliban took power and forced everyone to start wearing it.
No really...its just them being dicks...ask afgahn women outside of afgahnistan...

>Kurds
>Killing Assyrians
You watch a lot of russia today dont you?
Its not like the PYD litterally has a Assyrian Milita

>implying the Taliban wasn't the result of the Mujahideen
well they arent the same thing tho...

>Islamic world liberalizes in direct correlation to how little the West is involved in it

>we can make them love freedom by invading them

Tuaregs have the custom of the man wearing the veil.

>Those ""muslims"" look white

>Muslim is a race

Not only are you trying to make it seem as if Tajiks are the 'enlightened noble ones who dindu nuffin' but somehow you are making it seem as if the pashtun majority are great buddies with the shia hazaras who were the most oppressed ethnic group in the country. Neck yourself.

Tell me if not the Kurd.

>Breakdown of government and wealth in the area
>Invasion by the Soviet Union further destablises the area
>warlords seize various parts of the country
>Early forms of the Taliban arrive in the form of returning immigrants from a Pakistani religious school
>Taliban is religiously fundamental and demands adherence to strict form of Islam in exchange for protection of the locals and the setting up of courts
>country unified under Taliban

It's a sad tale but it's endemic in most failed states around the Middle East and Africa.

>Does this picture represent the average Afghan at the time?
Most images of progressive Westerners themselves didn't represent the average Westerner of their time either. That tiny, affluent minority under a normal and prosperous nation-state goes on to influence the rest of the country through media, economics, and bureaucracy.

The Taliban only took over when this demographic was all but wiped out after decades of war with the Russians, and later among war lords.

The Mujahedeen fought A G A I N S T the Taliban, dumbass.

Pashtuns are also overwhelmingly R1a you fucking moron.

>many have high R1a %

One person can only have one Y-DNA haplotype.

Lol dude USA gave Pakistan ISI $3 Billion to start the Taliban. You realise terrorist groups don't get that kind of funding?

>What went so horribly wrong?
nothing alhamdulillah

Didn't actually take place in Afghanistan but it had a radicalizing effect on Muslims worldwide.

21 year old Osama bin Laden experienced his own "awakening" because of this event.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure

The Mujahedeen fought FOR and AGAINST the Taliban, the Mujahedeen aren't a monolithic existence

Too much modernization in a small amount of time breeds reactionaries/fundamentalists.

It has much more to do with political instability.

On of Regan's biggest mistakes was arming the Muslims.

He is in fact directly responsible for 9/11.

Reagan's term was nothing but a string of mistakes into the future.

>literally no one can spend the time to actually read a book about the middle east after the fall of the Ottoman empire
>just keep fucking making shit up and inserting biases and bullshit everywhere

Holy fuck, just read a fucking book and you'll understand why the region is the way it is.

Reminder that outside wealthy parts of Herat and Kabul, Afghanistan was still a right-wing Islamist shithole.

The aftermath of the Soviet invasion caused right-wing rural fundamentalists (supported by the US) to seize control of the Afghan state.

Yeah I mean if the Soviets had won then they would have killed Osama Bin Laden years before we did.

>Oh no russia is spreading communism
>Better fund these people

>Oh no Gaddafi wants to change currency of oil
>better fund these people

US foreign policy

Yeah and it's been working pretty damn good so far you faggot.

I don't see any hyperpowers amidst our European colonies.

Training and funding your "allies" so they later can turn against you is a failure.

This has to be planned tho because i sincerely hope that the people in office aren't so naive and stupid they actually thought the "rebels" were gonna be moderate once they gained power.

It's easier to believe that these things are intentional rather than believe that we're run by absolutely incompetent people.

That's not what happened at all. The US tried to back Hekmatyar and force him to make amends with Massoud and Dostum while ISI inserted the Taliban as a third faction that rejected any sort of peace process.

How do people not blame the USSR for bombing Afghanistan to the stone age and making it a total shithole? The Soviet invasion alone killed around 2 million civilians and destroyed all infrastructure in that country. Not to mention it was communist bullshit that kickstarted that civil war to begin with.

It has to be intentional?

Right?

...

Fuck Jimmy for not invading Iran

They abandoned communism. Marxism/communism was an all encompassing ideology that defined a world view. When that went to shit, it got replaced by a similar all encompassing ideology - islamism.

Blaming the west sure is nice

Maybe those countries aren't liberal because they are not capitalist and very agrarian due to lack of technological advancements and whatnot.
When your next harvest decides whether or not you'll have to sell a daughter then you'd be less liberal as well cunt, agricultural societies and Islam just mix particularly badly, altough I don't think that the ME Is bad, we just shouldn't have touched that Shit ever outside of tourism.

Besides tentatively Hekmatyar, Mujaheddin fought near entirely against Taliban, the Taliban themselves claimed they were bringing islamic stability to the warlords and Mujaheddin fighting each other. Taliban are mainly Pashtun with a few Baloch. Meanwhile Mujaheddin came from every ethnicity in Afghanistan.

Even Hekmatyar fought against the Taliban, until his lieutenants started deserting and he got asspained to no end that he can't be in charge now.

It was the commies who niggered up that country to begin with. Afghanistan wasn't communist in the 1960s, it had a secular king who got replaced by a secular progressive dictator, who got overthrown by Soviet-backed commies. That's the moment the country went to shit.

America got involved

You mean the USSR

No retard, it was America that fucked it all up

ussr supported secular commies, west supported radical muslims, guess which side won.

similarly, west supported islamism in arab world to counter secular soviet backed arab nationalism.

You must be seriously uneducated. See

USSR overthrew a secular dictator and caused an immidiate civil war. You actually can't name a single fucking good thing the Soviets and their lackeys did in Afghanistan, because there isn't one.

No, you're fucking clueless. The Commies were making that country better. But Americans weren't having it, they want Communism destroyed by any means. Even if that means fucking up countries worldwide.

What did the commies do better? OP's pic is from before commies. The indistrialization, school reform, women's rights, secularism, commies did none of that, it was all the king and Daoud who the commies deposed and started mass collectivization which caused a civil war. They did NOTHING good in Afghanistan.

>The indistrialization, school reform, women's rights, secularism, commies did none of that
Uh no, that's debatable at best. Afghanistan was only half as good as say Iran or Iraq. But the Commies pushed it even further, usually by force.
>which caused a civil war
No, there was already tensions over secularizing the Muslim world. It's not like any Communist leading government triggered it.