>"Hit the Poles so hard that they despair of their life; I have full sympathy with their condition, but if we want to survive, we can only exterminate them; the wolf, too, cannot help having been created by God as he is, but people shoot him for it if they can."
- Otto von Bismarck
Discuss.
fucking germans
Insidious. Petty. Presumptuous. Cowardly.
Was it autism?
He literally dindu nuffin. On top of that, an independent Poland would've constituted a direct existential threat to Prussia.
Or a buffer state against Russia.
Poland has hardly ever been a threat to the german.
This
There is nothing to discuss about a quote without context.
sage, reported
On its own? No. With Austria? Absolutely.
Austria was allied with Poland I think once in their entire history. Other than that they've maintained rather friendly relations but Commonwealth wasn't exactly at odds with Hohenzollerns either.
Yes, but in a hypothetical situation Austria would totally use the Commonwealth as a counterweight against a rapidly expanding Prussia
If you disregard the Polish-Lithuanian Union, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Poland under Casimir the Great, then yes, absolutely.
Believe it or not,Poland wasn't always post-Soviet buffer zone of the NATO.In her prime, she was one of the most powerful countries while Prussia was nothing more but one of their vassals.
In her prime, she competed with giants such as.. Wait for it, this one is real relevant.. Spain? Russia? UK? No.. Poland was roughly as good at its peak.. As Sweden was.
It's so spooky when you realize the putrid aesthetic of German Classical music is so congruent with their overall character.
I am a German and I agree
Hit the Poles. Hit them hard
In her Prime,she competed with the Ottoman Empire, the Russians and the Swedes and that's mostly because "your giants" didn't dare to compete with her.
At that time, the United Kingdom was a steaming pile of shit engulfed in a civil war, the Holy Roman Empire has lost it's purpose after the death of Charles V and Austria was nothing more but regional power.
>As Sweden was
Remind me again, who maintained the largest territory in the known world in the 17th century, whose heavy cavalry remained undefeated for 127 years, who was a major patron of the arts and who triggered the decline of the Ottoman Empire? Sweden? Bavaria? The United Kingdom? Austria? Their vassal, Prussia? Venice? The Kingdom of France?
In the end it had to be a non-German reunifying Germany
>existential threat to Prussia.
Yes, only to Prussia.
Poland didn't have a conflict with other German states.
It's not even a Catholic/Protestant thing, since Saxony and Poland had the same rulers for certain periods during the 18th century.
The reason why Saxon kings were elected is because they were notorious imbeciles, the Polish nobility simply loved to manipulate with inept kings.
>Austria, Western Poland, Swizterland, Northern Italy, Burgundy, Southern Denmark all independent
>united Germany
Western Poland was never German to begin with, it only became theirs at the very end of the 18th century, mainly after the completion of the Partitions of Poland.
>map shows all of Schleswig as part of Denmark and not German, as it was for centuries
>Southern Denmark of today is German based on this map, guise
>"us Prussians ... are the Poles equal brothers or their servants"
>"us Prussians ... are the Poles equal brothers or their servants"
>"us Prussians ... are the Poles equal brothers or their servants"
en.wikipedia.org
How ironic because Poland technically created Prussia in 1525. A huge mistake by the way.
en.wikipedia.org
>Austria was allied with Poland I think once in their entire history.
Couple more.
>Other than that they've maintained rather friendly relations but Commonwealth wasn't exactly at odds with Hohenzollerns either.
The Hohenzollern's literally received their prince-titles from Poland and were kneeling before Polish kings for generations.
Poles are a great people, a great people, who have lived through miserable conditions for the nation.
But y'know when you wanna get something done in europe it's basically a prerequisite to fuck up the poles, great people and all but cmon shit has to get done, sry poles not sry
>DUDE KULTURKAMPF LMAO, IT'LL WORK GREAT XDDD
>*Września intensifies*
>Wait for it, this one is real relevant.. Spain?
And Netherlands over colonies in South America (Tobago) and Africa (Gambia).
>Russia?
Of course. And Russia got a large beating multiple times. Also Poland is the only country to have successfully invaded and conquered Moscow (besides Mongols - not capital, French and Poles conquered an empty city - capital moved). And if our king wasn't greedy, Russia would have a Polish king (his son) on their throne. At first around 50% of the boyars supported such a deal, Polish-Lithuanian-Russian Union granting them Polish laws and rights which were very attractive for them.
>UK
The UK used pirates to block the Polish trading vessels traveling on the English Channel from and to Gdańsk, until Poland sent a delegate and started threatening with repercussions, and a potential alliance against UK with Austria. The Queen Elizabeth I got pissed and went into a tantrum, but stopped the sabotage.
Don't you think gold is very valuable commodity, my assburger friend?
>Remind me again, who who triggered the decline of the Ottoman Empire?
That had a a lot to do with internal decay. Apart from that, the Great Turkish War was mainly fought by troops of the HRE and its states, and it gave the king of Poland the money he demanded for his (admittedly very important) contribution. And Russia also fought the Ottomans almost non-stop.
What is now Western Poland wasn't even affected by the partitions because it already belonged to German states.
>Remind me again, who maintained the largest territory in the known world in the 17th century, whose heavy cavalry remained undefeated for 127 years, who was a major patron of the arts and who triggered the decline of the Ottoman Empire? Sweden? Bavaria? The United Kingdom? Austria? Their vassal, Prussia? Venice? The Kingdom of France?
I hope you're not referring to poland
Prussia wasn't even considered a German state until well into 19th century.
>I hate krauts who disagree with me but I hate other countries even more.
t. Otto von Bismarck
Says who? I don't know why anyone wouldn't consider it German after the union with Brandenburg
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here; Germany was far from unification at the time of the OP quote (1861) and Bismarck was a Prussian first and foremost, even post-unification.
>The French are completely without scruples, energy or valor - the Great War castrated them and left them diminished, whiney, mistaking bickering for debate and shrillness for eloquence, they are a nation in such effete decline that Shickelgrubber, when he finally attacks them, might be dancing with the keys to Paris in his hand after a week or two of puny skirmishing.
Bismarck got shit done and was absolutely based, austro-hungarian catholishits btfo.
To suggest Poland was never, ever a threat to Prussia is willfull ignorance.
Oh for fucks's sake. Contemporaries said so. No one considered Prussia to be a part of Germany for centuries. Pic related.
Only when nationalism started to kick in after the Napoleonic wars, the idea that Prussia might be German started to sink in. Since Prussia actually united Germany, the idea that Prussia was a quintessence of Germany became so deeply embedded that people can't comprehend that it was once the other way around.
>To suggest Poland was never, ever a threat to Prussia is willfull ignorance.
Poland had several times the chance to destroy Prussia and never did. The Polish voluntary withdrawal from Prussia in 1525 was a surprise comparable to the French withdrawal from the Low Countries after the battle of Fontenoy of 1745.
Ergo, Poland was not a threat to Prussia, because Polish actions never endangered Prussia's existence. Poland was far stronger for a long time and definitely capable to crush Prussia, but actually never showed any will to do it.
>Commonwealth
We're not discussing the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth was long gone by 1861. The context of Bismarck's comment is the unrest in the Russian partition, which led to the uprising of 1863, and the widespread pro-Polish sentiments in Prussia and across Germany that were associated with it. The Russian parts of Poland obviously did not constitute anywhere near the territories of the pre-1772 Commonwealth, which housed within its borders almost all ethnic Poles and thus had little reason to attack Prussia. Russian Poland on its own, on the other hand, would certainly have been rampantly (and rightly, Bismarck even acknowledged this) irredentist and sought to retake Poznan and maybe more at some point, likely sooner rather than later.
>Poland was one of the most powerful countries
He has a point
Just the usual german butthurt and inferiority complex
That's a fact though. It was France of the east in that time. You had to respect it and make deals with it.
I couldn't care less what an illiterate colonial had to offer to this discussion.
The thing is, Poland didn't deem it necessary to destroy Prussia because she was far more valuable as a vassal.
I am in fact, referring to Poland because they were the ones who've fielded these advantages,not the Swedes,not the Russians, nor the Prussians and certainly not the Austrians.
It's rather tragic, You Westerners pride yourself over being the only ones that are truly capable of treating history with empiric objectivity and yet, you always fail at doing just that when it comes to Slavic, mainly Russian, Serbian and Polish history.
Not even remotely so, only Gdansk fielded a large German-speaking population and even if it were true that Western Poland was German at that time, the cities there were originally founded, maintained and inhabited by Poles.
The internal decay was largely set in motion after they've lost the Great Turkish war, not before.
> was mainly fought by troops of the HRE and its states
True, but it was the Polish army which inflicted most of the casualties to the Turks, some 15000 I believe.
Germans are bloodthirsty savages with no honour or even traces of humamity.
Dresden them all, I say.
>All these butthurt Poles
Oh of course. Let's not forget, we can only speak about Germany here.
>Queen Elizabeth I got pissed and went into a tantrum, but stopped the sabotage
Glorious.
Being historically literate is the same as being "butt-hurt" these days, a profound image of the mindset of the modern Germanic man.
>And if our king wasn't greedy, Russia would have a Polish king (his son) on their throne.
That son (future king of Poland Wladyslaw IV) wouldn't survive 5 minutes after the Polish army left Moscow. The Muscovite politics were THAT treacherous at the time.
can someone explain to me why poles are taking this so personally?
the fuck did Bismarck ever do to you
News about this "scandal" spread fast in London and many people wanted the delegate punished in one way or another. In result, the delegate got even depicted in William Shakespear's Halmet as an foreign unpleasant jerk businessman and - the time period of his Hamlet writing - under a Polish sounding name.
Well that was one of the reasons why Zygmunt III Waza didn't let him on the throne; besides being a selfish fundamentalist Catholic.
>besides being a selfish fundamentalist Catholic.
He wasn't. This is just one of many lies invented by that pseudohistorian Jasienica.
If Zygmunt III was a fundie, why did he allow to celebrate Protestant masses in his own royal palace?
Napoleons greatest mistake.
If only he had left the HRE intact it would have kept germany stagnant and divided enough to avoid havoc they wrought up the world.
>the fuck did Bismarck ever do to you
Kulturkampf
>Slesvig
>German clay
Give back Dannevirke
>Germanization, crushing of Polish cultural life
>Expulsions and resettlement
>Settling in massive amounts of Germans
>Directing investments elsewhere, intentionally making Eastern provinces poor wasteland
to name just a few
>If Zygmunt III was a fundie, why did he allow to celebrate Protestant masses in his own royal palace?
No shit, Poland had religious freedoms and a king couldn't go against the Golden Liberty without getting shot down by the nobles. Also, lots of PLC's inhabitants were Protestant (mostly in the north). Nevertheless, he tried to push Catholicism in Sweden for example, which contributed to costed him his Swedish crown. Maybe calling him a "fundamentalist" is a bad choice of words, a "devoted" Catholic would be a better pick.
Bismarck was a cruel narcissist and Wilhelm II was right to sack him
Poland's greatest mistake was creating Prussia in 1525.
Idiot.
His royal palace was his private house. He not only hired and tolerated Protestant servants, but even allowed them to celebrate their services in this his own house. It this how a religious fanatic acts?
The whole idea that Zygmunt was a fanatic comes from Jasienica's books which are nothing but a bag of lies. Jasienica is von Daniken of Polish historiography, creating his own alternative reality. He nevertheless was so popular that his many inventions have became the staple of popular consciousness in Poland. Another example of his influence - the name "Commonwealth of Two Nations (Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów)" is also his invention. That state never used that name and no one used it before Jasienica came around. It was called "The Crown of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania".
>Nevertheless, he tried to push Catholicism in Sweden for example, which contributed to costed him his Swedish crown.
His loss of the throne in Sweden has literally zero to do with religion, everything to do with his power-hungry uncle.
>Waza
best borders, fuck eastern animals
Yes, that's the Polish branch of the House of Vasa stupid.
It's "Vasa" in English (and Swedish).
There's no separately named branch, Sigismund III was the eldest son of the Swedish king and the Catholic Vasas continued to claim the Swedish throne until I can't remember when exactly.
Waza is just a translation if anything.
Nah, these would be the best borders lad.
Those are some serious WEWUZ borders
>republic
delet this
That's not Wewuz, those are actual early 11th century borders.
Fucking abomination. Let me guess, some autist did this and then masturbated to it.
Nałogowe Obciąganie Pyty.
Hello faggot. No one needs you here, go back to /int/
>mfw all those retards with Kotwica on their T-shirts
see
>not going for grossvenediums
Fucking Boleslaus, so close and yet so far.
>Bolesław Piasecki
>In interwar Poland he was one of the more prominent nationalist politicians, playing an important role in the leadership of Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny. In 1934 he was interned in Bereza Kartuska. After his release, he became the leader of the illegal, extreme right faction ONR-Falanga. This organisation advocated "Catholic totalitarianism" and is considered by many to have been a fascist movement.
>Afterwards, he was arrested by the Soviet NKVD, and in a drastic conversion from his previous stance began to cooperate with the Communist government in Poland.[1] In 1947 he created the PAX Association and was the chairman of its governing body (until his death).
>Following the Soviet takeover, the PAX Association had been formed with the intention to undermine grass-roots support for the Roman Catholic Church in Stalinist Poland. Created by Bolesław Piasecki, it approved the trial and imprisonment of many Polish clergymen, among them Bishop Czesław Kaczmarek and Cardinal Stefan Wyszyński. PAX attempted to compete with the conservative clergy of the interwar era over public policy issues, especially after the arrest of hundreds of priests by the state security in early 1950s.[4]
Really makes you think.
Those are not even the the largest one.
How's that an abomination?
Best of all, AK was apolitical, but mainly staffed with socialists.
>The Polish voluntary withdrawal from Prussia in 1525
But that's not what happened in the last Polish-Teutonic war. There was an truce lasting four years during which both states had the opportunity to rebuild their forces. Influenced by Martin Luther, the Teutonic Grand master decided to turn Prussia into a lutheran duchy (and thus distancing himself from the HRE) under nominal Polish sovereignty, which was a decent deal for both sides.
>How's that an abomination?
It's ugly. It has ahistorical provinces. And it's an obvious masturbatory fantasy.
You forgot the part in which the Teutons were thoroughly beaten and it was seen as foregone conclusion that they cease to exist.
t. legrossgermaniumsfan
Kys faggot.
It is historical whether you like it or not.
Are polish nationalists more related to the animals or mushrooms?
>1544918
Quite likely. Their knowledge rarely exceeds that possessed by an average-developed fungus.
Howdy, Germanic servants.
That's like; your opinion. Who cares about those made up province names, what matters are the borders, the provinces could stay like before 1939.
>Expulsions and resettlement
Where and when?
>Settling in massive amounts of Germans
If you're referring to the Prussian settlement commision: the numbers of new settlers was certainly not massive; wiki lists the number as 150,000, which was a drop in the bucket compared to the total population of the Eastern provinces.
Still, too many Ukrainians.
kick them out then
>Where and when?
en.wikipedia.org
>If you're referring to the Prussian settlement commision: the numbers of new settlers was certainly not massive; wiki lists the number as 150,000, which was a drop in the bucket compared to the total population of the Eastern provinces.
They took over massive amounts of land. Pic related.
>that fucking eastern border
So this is how cancer truly looks like
You know that, sadly, most of those Ukrainians in the west had Polish ancestors and are Poles in denial? Those banderite faggots could be expelled with their entire families to the Dnieper tho, just like how the Soviets did with Poles in Kresy.
What's wrong with it? It's just slightly less then what Poland had before WW2.
>en.wikipedia.org
Oh, didn't know that. But apparently it affected foreigners whose deportation is generally a legal measure, albeit pretty cruel.
>They took over massive amounts of land.
Yes, and the commission payed for it. Most of the land was actually purchased from German landowners.
>You forgot the part in which the Teutons were thoroughly beaten
Nope, the Teutonics failed to defeat Poland, but they weren't decisively beaten.
even though interwar border was shit with that giant schlong in Belarus, it still was going smoothly, looks like it was drawn by a five year old in paint, just look at that lithuania, not too mention the fact of cutting out a part of galicia, which makes southeastern border look like ass. And that chech silesia was not only ahistoriacally looking, but it allso looks terrible
t. map pro
No matter if it was legal or not. You (was it you?) asked why Poles hate Bismarck.
meant to link to instead of
yep it was me
yeah you're right