How much power could i get out of a 1990 FC if i gave it a fat injector and made it run on methanol...

Then why did you picture a 13BT?
I got my S4 NA to dyno 160whp.
Its not hard to do.

can it handle putting a larger turbo with like 30psi? and would ceramic apex seals significantly help?

Water meth injection is not something to throw together. Buy a kit if your going to do it and tune it right. The mixture needs to be finely atomised and too much will hydrlock your shit.
When done right it increases your power potential greatly especially on turbo cars. Don't ditch the intercooler if you do it because the systems can malfunction then your left with extremely hot intake temps and probably detonation.

An NA motor?
No. You have to use turbo block. Huge difference in ports

if it's a turbo what threshold exists for psi for the block when combined with straight methanol?

Why are you stuck on methanol?

i looked at the BTUs it would support and also the fact that it would let me delete an intercooler to save weight. im just worried about series i could do with it and someone said possibly atlantic.

No no no.
Just stop.
You dont know enough about this.
You are asking on Veeky Forums
Please go to rx7club and ask there.

>I have a hard on to delete a 4.5 lb intercooler at the enormous risk to my engine instead of finding other ways to lose the weight

God fucking damn are you stupid.

why? what's the worst that could happen if i give a stock dorito 100psi with methanol and a stock tranny while going around corners?

Oh i see. Youre trolling.

how is it a risk if i have the methanol running through it to draw away heat?

that was a hyperbole but the concept itself is something i'm seriously looking into mainly because of the reliability people spout about wankle engines due to the amount of components actually involved in their combustion cycles compared to a convention piston engine.

you can make 1000hp for about 3 runs then you're tearing it down.

no. youre going to need an intercooler. rotarys have crazy high exhaust temps, and putting that heat back into the motor with a turbo system will blow that fucking motor.

realistically, the more you go over 300hp the more time you take off the engines life.

I'm aiming for 350-400hp, i'm estimating rebuilding once every year, maybe two.

if you want crazy power, get a LS motor. parts are easier to come by

the more you shred rotors and housings, the more you're going to be relying on custom fab shops cncing you new rotors and housings.

if you're talking an NA block you can push 400hp with CRAZY porting, and massive upgrades. the car will be undrivable at the high of HP on an NA rotary

Turbo blocks can hit 1000 but the life of the block is about 3 passes on the 1/4 mile

wouldn't the pushrods on an ls motor lead to more wear at higher horsepower than a wankle motor with less pieces though? from what i understood i'd have to be tearing it down mainly to replace seals.

what would those upgrades be in this case?

Holy shit this whole thread I can't even tell if everyone is trolling it's ridiculous..

First off.. No methanol. You're a poor ass Street car owner. You dont need methanol and you can't afford it. Secondly if you want big power from a rotary you need to go turbo, so you should remove your standard 13b and sell it or set it aside and buy a built 13b turbo and set it up to run ordinary pump fuel or if you have the cash go flex fuel and primarily use e85. Third you're having an intercooler you dumb cunt. If anything you're going to a larger front mount intercooler.

Fourthly... It's cheaper to just swap in an ls1, more reliable and linear power delivery. Not quite as unique or cool as a rotary at 10krpm but if you want bang for buck going piston is better.

how is that better bang for buck if there are more parts to wear down with higher power output? i'd have to afford replacing rings and seats along with the rocker arms. also why do i need an intercooler so much when methanol in itself can cool the engine with 5x the enthalpy of gasoline? if it wasn't in the chambers to cool it the engine would stall and it wouldn't even be an issue to begin with.

well obviously youre going to build the LS block

the problem is, at high RPMs the apex seals can chatter on the housing which destroys the housing and shatters the apex seals.

P port, fuel system upgrades, aero, weight stripping, massive cooling mods, full intake, full proper racing exhaust full standalone ecu system and a tune by a person who specifies in the NA 13b.
honestly, theres probably more stuff you need to do that I'm not aware of. NAs pretty much top out at 250hp with porting and an ecu. the higher you go the more expensive and challenging it to make, not to mention you're losing a lot of reliability.

seal kits for rotarys are about 1500 last time i checked. And the rebuilds will be constant with the power youre imagining. bullet proofing an ls motor might cost more money in the short term, but the money youll save will be astronomical.

so lets say you build the ls block for 6k. nice

rotary: ever seal kit: 1.5k.
every rotor you ruin: MINIMUM 800
every housing you ruin: MINIMUM 800
the so with just one FULL rebuild thats 4.5k
And then what happens next race day when you make a couple passes, the unshaterable apex seal chatters your housings? well thats two new housings and another seal kit. You cant just get the small seal kit because once you open the motor, all the seals get done or you're wasting your time.

methanol is cheaper than petrol you dumbass.

i dont mean to sound like a dick, but get an LS motor. I love the rotary, I have 3 cars with them including my daily. One is 800hp 20b. one is a 400hp13bt. and my Daily is a NA 13b for daily reliability.

I love the rotary. But with what you're wanting to do, with the budget the average Veeky Forums user has: get an LS motor. it will save you time and a lot of money.

an ls would cost me as much as a first gen rx7 though. i really need to evaluate the costs here and also what chassis i'd use for it.

You are an honest to god retard. Please kys before you destroy an rx7 with your gay ideas.

Jesus you're a dumb fuck as well. 300hp is fuck all, I was making this at the wheels in my rx7 with a highflowed stock turbo running 11psi and a mild port.

why even bother replying if you're not going to contribute anything constructive? it's a well established fact that methanol cools an engine well enough in certain setups such that you can remove an intercooler. i'm simply reiterating it here because a rotary in itself is a smaller lightweight package and being able to delete whatever existing weight is on the system is something to look into. don't be a pedant just because i'm not going "yes" to everything.

a fucking ls crate motor is like 2k.
a junk yard motor and trans is like 800
LS motors are cheap as fuck.

yea you can buy an FB rx7 for cheap, but its rotted away or has a blown motor.

You to hard headed to own a rotary dude.
get a LS, leave the rotors and housing for me and people who know how a rotary works and can think logically about the motor.

get a fucking ls motor. put it in a miata and run fucking crazy low 1/4 mile times.
put it in a 240, put it in a mustang, put it in a chevy car, put it in anything other than an rx7 which are getting more and more expensive.

what costs do you need to evaluate? I told you the costs, get an LS its fucking cheaper.

>a fucking ls crate motor is like 2k
Link please, I want to buy three of them.

I have 3 fucking rx7s. I'm building another one for my buddys drift car. I'm giving him 300hp so we dont fucking have to rebuild it constantly.

no, you cannot simply run methanol without an intercooler.
The rotary is one of the hottest motors creating crazy fucking temps. Shove that much heat BACK into an already hot motor is going to over heat it and warp the block. Say bye to your nice built 13bt because you were to cheap to spend a couple hundred bucks and wouldnt sacrifice 30lbs.

You said you wanted to run 100psi. You are an idiot. Yes methanol cools the intake charge. Do you know what running methanol in a car entials? I'll guess not, as you are asking retarded questions. Might want to look into that, you can't just throw it in there and be done with it.

Iron block

though my buddys work: remand crate motors, add oil and plugs and its turn key ready. fucking 2k.

>a junk yard motor and trans is like 800
link
>yea you can buy an FB rx7 for cheap, but its rotted away or has a blown motor.
same can be said about a junk yard ls
>leave the rotors and housing for me and people who know how a rotary works and can think logically about the motor.
not too logical if you can't understand how methanol works or think an ls is more reliable when it has more components that can fail

to me the costs are about making an engine that's going to be lightweight, simple, powerful, and capable of being torn down quickly if needed. an ls is a great motor and i would likely get one as well at some point but to me the cost of putting boost through one would be as much as getting boost through the winkle, while being heavier. so again why should i switch?
that was a hyperbole i would only actually run 20-30psi. and i'm aware of the corrosion factors but lubrication can be done with premix can't it? and before you rant off about me not knowing this stuff flawlessly that's why i made this thread.

What you get for 2grand from jegs

>think an ls is more reliable when it has more components that can fail
are you that fucking retarded dude?
sure the rotary has less moving parts, BUT WHEN THEY FUCKING BREAK THE HOLE MOTOR CAN BE GOING IN THE TRASH.

are you that fucking stupid?
rotarys are CONSTANTLY made fun of because theyre unreliable AND THEY MAKE 150-250HP. what happens when you want to make the power youre talking about? MORE FAILURES DIPSHITS.

You're either LITERALLY mentally challenged or trolling.

if you're trolling its working, faggot.

>and before you rant off about me not knowing this stuff flawlessly that's why i made this thread.

we're giving you answers and you're being a faggot and not listening to legitimate answers.

>BUT WHEN THEY FUCKING BREAK THE HOLE MOTOR CAN BE GOING IN THE TRASH.
Not him. But the same thing happens with a piston engine
Stop sperging

the only one trolling is you

>UT WHEN THEY FUCKING BREAK THE HOLE MOTOR CAN BE GOING IN THE TRASH.

and when an ls throws a piston or rod it's not going into the trash? those failures would make the whole head and block useless.

you're talking shit in a way that's just silly. your 150-250HP is from what exactly? an ls makes 350HP. what happens when you go above that? i could pull up a dozen sources of people doing the damage i just referred to.

how is saying "don't do this" a legitimate answer? you're just saying it's unreliable without any actual elaboration, which i'm not down for.

lose a piston ring: put a new piston ring on. sucks, but everything else is fine. you just lost compression in a cylinder.
lose an apex seal: you probably scored the housing and you need a new housing, potentially a rotor if it also scored the rotor, and a full rebuild seal kit.

You dont know how engines work huh

except i could replace a seal before it comes to that point in less than a couple hours. preemptive maintenance on a simpler system.

12A was phased out in 85

150-250hp

the NA 13b makes 150 to the crank
the 13b TII makes 250 to the crank in the s5 chassis.

you're trying to argue that a rotary is MORE reliable than an LS motor. That's autistic.

"hey, should I put my hand on a burning stove top"
"no dont do that"
"THATS NOT A LEGITIMATE ANSWER"

Tell you not to do it after telling you why not to do it is a perfect answer.

you wont listen to people who OWN AND BUILD rotarys.

You have no idea how little you know what you're actually talking about.

so, how do you plan to monitor the apex seal?
drill into the block, put a camera in there to see it and when its in there pray it holds compression and doesnt melt?

or are you going to tear the block down, and spend 1.5k on a rebuild kit EVERY time you open the motor?

the fact you can't even actually elaborate and compare using a rotary to a stovetop is not helping your credibility here. why are you even trying to bait like this?

and it is more reliable. no piston, no thrown piston. no rod, no thrown rod. the only thing autistic is you thinking having MORE parts means it's MORE reliable, because...oh that's right you haven't explained anything.
and we're back to square one with this shit. i'll simplify it.

methanol has a higher enthalpy. inb4 you still try to argue about how it doesn't or how i'm stupid because you just can't tolerate discussions.

tearing it down and looking at the seal, checking engine fluid levels, checking a variety of levels, or doing routine maintenance before the oem spec period. what more do you want? you'd have to do the same to an ls.

Turbo II's never made 250hp, closest was 200hp crank with the S5

let me break it down for you dipshit:

the ls motor has more parts, sure, thats obvious. LS motor parts are also MUCH easier to get. I GUARANTEE you I can call summit in the morning when theyre open, and order pistons for an LS motors. I could get a crank for one. I can go find an LS motor in a junk yard for little money, and have a new platform for if a piston is thrown.
Yea, every motor can fail. Duh, happens daily.

heres what you're not realizing. 3 moving parts means if something goes wrong it ALL goes wrong. Parts are hard to find and are getting harder. If I call summit and say "Hey, I need a rotor for a 13bt out of a s5 rx7 weight B" theyre going to laugh in my face. Ill have to go on a rx7 forum or go onto a rx7 facebook page and pray someone has what I need in my price range. Or I can go onto atkins rotary, but one for 800 bucks and pray they send me a weight B rotor.

The 13b is unreliable. Its a known fact.
thats why the LS swap is SUPER common for RX7s. Thats why a lot of people put LS motors into drift cars instead of JDM import motors.

I could go on for hours. What youre not getting is: LS is motor reliable than a rotary. Fact.

more parts, in this case, does mean more reliable.

13b-rew out of the FD chassis made 252 at the crank.

There's no need to make huge amounts of power. It's a light car, play into its weight. A 13B with a GT35R and supporting mods will be relatively reliable (comparatively) as long as you do the standard rotary stuff. Pig on fuel though.

If you're wanting massive numbers you're going to have to be prepared to rebuild CONSTANTLY or go for a 20B. Unless it's purely a track car it just doesn't make sense.

I love rotaries but if your goal is big numbers you're better off with an LS in there.

This too I've found 13B using more modern turbos with the vacuum systems deleted tend to be much more reliable nowadays but if you break down in the middle of nowhere you can guarantee Bob at the local Woopwoop Garage has LS parts out back.

You get a 5-10% increase in power from methanol's higher expansion ratio and charge cooling effects. Then it's the equivalent of 105 octane in the US, or 115 octane in the rest of the world.

>13b-rew out of the FD chassis made 252 at the crank.
13B-REW wasn't in the Turbo II. They had 13B-DEI. Most they ever made from factory was 200hp.

except it wouldn't be put in a position where the rotor would fail, because that would be implying you're putting too much boost or some other factor that would be a tuning error, not an inherent wear on the engine itself, which again would be mitigated by routing maintenance which you would have to do NO MATTER WHAT. and mazdaspeed supplies a large amount of parts at a discount for people participating in races, so the parts thing isn't a big deal in itself, which again would be way less to begin with.

the reliability here to me is just lost because you're somehow saying more inertial mass is better. i just can't even begin to start why that's so silly. and don't rotaries like to be pushed due to carbon buildup? and not only that but the le mans one that's so popular here actually was said to be capable of a couple more races without any rework.

im not saying the 13b is a engine that breaks down daily. but without "fixing" the common problems, its unreliable. and like you said, if you break down with a 13b, you're waiting on parts.
dude its hard for me to even get pads and brake rotors for my FCs. 99% of the time when I call a place its "yea, I can get them here in like 5 days" no one has them instock except for atkins (which theyre STUPID expensive) or rock auto (my last purchase from them for the brake rotors ended up not fitting. so in my experience rock auto is also unreliable)

give
me
a
link
to
the
rebuild
kit
if
it
is
so
fucking
cheap

www.mazdamotorsports.com/partsprogram.htm

you have to be a member but the fact remains.

S4s made 200 at the crank, S5s made 215.

>im not saying the 13b is a engine that breaks down daily. but without "fixing" the common problems, its unreliable. and like you said, if you break down with a 13b, you're waiting on parts.
I'm not OP. Was never arguing that. They're more reliable nowadays because you can get rid of all the vacuum lines which really helps with the heat issue.

>and not only that but the le mans one that's so popular here actually was said to be capable of a couple more races without any rework.
Comparing a racing 26B to a 13B is a bit silly. Chalk and cheese man.

the rotors don't "fail" the seals do. That can happen from: too much boost, to much heat, lean conditions, rich conditions, and from general use. And once a apex seal goes that can score a rotor or housing. Not to mention if a sideseal comes out, which has 100% happened, to aaroncake himself, the rotor AND housing are pretty much guaranteed to be ruined.

and not to mention the apex seal can chatter which ruins the housing. the apex seal doesnt have to break to cause damage.

if you cant understand that an LS motor is more reliable than a rotary, you dont have a license and arent even allowed to visit disneys website without asking your parents.

yea, the le mans car could have done more racing, but youre forgetting how much money went into that car.

and by the way: the way they know it could have done a couple more races without a rebuild is they OPENED IT. and once you open it YOU HAVE TO REBUILD IT.

>1986–1988 Mazda FC3S S4 Turbo RX-7 Turbo-II, 185 hp (138 kW)
>1989–1991 Mazda FC3S S5 Turbo RX-7 Turbo-II, 200 hp (147 kW)
Whether that's wheel or crank neither of those are 250hp and citing power figures for a 13B-REW isn't relevant.

>the reliability here to me is just lost because you're somehow saying more inertial mass is better.
I like rotaries I do but you're comparing an engine that needs mods to be reliable to a notoriously reliable engine.

I'm not really into LS but trying to say a 13B is more reliable than an LS is absurd.

i know you arent op, I was just adding onto what you said bruh. You seem to be the only one here who knows that a 13b has its downsides.

holy shit, I forgot the le mans car was a 26b.
op compared a 13b to a 26b... i have no words.

i'm more comparing it to the engines the other le mans cars were running than the 13b. the argument standing here would have had it needing more maintenance than anything else running at the time.

and what about valveseats or piston rings being pushed to their limits? or gaskets? you still have more points of failure than an apex seal and sideseal. you're saying i would be more screwed than you but in reality you would also need a rebuild if any of those areas got damaged since it would offset the tighter tolerances you require for the valve and piston sealing.

im not op, Im not a fan of the LS series and love the 13b.

>you're comparing an engine that needs mods to be reliable to a notoriously reliable engine.

you said it perfectly.

Post a screencap of the catalog entry please. Try part number 8AFE-10-271 for reference.

What is this concept of yours that less parts = less failure?

If an engine had 100 parts which all had a failure rate of 0.01 percent it would have a failure rate of 10 percent. If an engine had 20 parts with a failure rate of 1 percent, it would have a failure rate of 20 percent. Idk what you're misunderstanding here but you're going to need to do a lot of reading if you want a fast rotary based car.

you're literally autistic.

"Hey guis. u no that moter that is relly relibel? the EL ES moter? let meh tell u y teh rotardy is WEY MOR RELIBELL!"

You're trying to say a motor that requires mods, WHICH IVE DONE, to be reliable is MORE reliable than a motor that is CONSTANTLY praised for its reliability.

do you see how you're being retarded now?

This is a new trollin method, don't feed him anymore.

>You seem to be the only one here who knows that a 13b has its downsides.
13B are fun and rebuilding them is part of it but even with a modern single turbo setup I probably wouldn't go past 350-400hp, it's just asking for trouble.

>i'm more comparing it to the engines the other le mans cars were running than the 13b. the argument standing here would have had it needing more maintenance than anything else running at the time.
Not really, the 26B was NA so it didn't have any of the rats nest heat issues that plagues 13B setups. Add to that they're not TOO bad when they're held higher up the rev range for most of their life.

The NA ported racing 20Bs are relatively reliable on a race track, horrible to drive on the street though.

Love or hate LS the fact that they can drive to the track, beat on it for a day, and drive home really is something.

>and what about valveseats or piston rings being pushed to their limits? or gaskets? you still have more points of failure than an apex seal and sideseal
A big difference is if something goes in a piston engine there's a good chance nothing terrible will come of it. You can limp home and fix it up. If something goes wrong in a rotary it tends to grenade.

No one is saying more parts = more reliable but rotaries tend to go pop if any one piece falls over.

This is all before you consider than an LS is a very well known reliable engine.

Should you swap your 13B for an LS? Not necessarily, but you have to be realistic with your goals based on what you want out of the car. Rotaries are great but not always appropriate.

>If an engine had 100 parts which all had a failure rate of 0.01 percent it would have a failure rate of 10 percent. If an engine had 20 parts with a failure rate of 1 percent, it would have a failure rate of 20 percent.
That's 0.995% and 19.21%, respectively.

im not op. Youre way more level headed than me. I can only take OP being hard headed for so long.

and I agree, rebuilding is part of the 13b experience. And again, I agree with no more than 350-400 "limit" for safety.
I love the LS motor, but calling them more reliable than a piston motor is silly.
Fun, pack a punch for small displacement, unique, a rotary is all of these, but reliable it is not.

thank you for being here, mate.

>I love the LS motor, but calling them more reliable than a piston motor is silly.

sorry, I fucked up
I love the 13b motor, but calling them mroe reliable than a piston motor is silly.

>And again, I agree with no more than 350-400 "limit" for safety.
Even 400hp would make me skittish. Should be doable though.

If you like the 13B try and drive something with a 1299 Hayabusa swap at some point. Same sort of experience but it revs to 11,000rpm and if the car is light enough (

I honestly hope you kys. Fuck you.

If you're making 400hp with proper support you should see waay more than "just a year" unless you do a couple thousand miles a week or drive rightly hectic all the time.
With water injection and pump gas a 13brew making 500whp on factory seals and springs will last over 50,000 km easy

> ls swap saving time and money ever
Lel nope not a chance

You're dumb
Rotors and housings don't need replacing in a normal rebuild unless you're purposefully seeking out to destroy them every time you start to lose compression