Itt: Byzaboos and Veniceboos argue for our amusement

I can't speak to it's rise but it, along with the rest of the Med, went to shit as soon as trade shifted from the Med to the Atlantic. As soon as the Americas were discovered, the death count started for trade being big on the Med.

No one gave a fuck about trading in a market that was at least 50% controlled by hostile parties when you could fuck around in the new world where you only had technologically inadvanced savages to worry about.

Boi. This conflicts me to the highest degree, for I am a byzaboo...born in Venice.
What do?

I'm a total byzaboo, but I dig Venice and honestly Enrico is one crafty motherfucker.

4th Crusade was bad crusading

But very good merchanting

Well played, merchant.

>reading a new comic book that's about the crusades
>first few pages mentions the sacking of Zara
>remember why I hate Venice again

FUCK Venice.

t. Croat

the crusaders literally did nothing wrong, orthodoxfags, snowniggers and sandnigger deserved it.

>what caused its rise and what its fall?
It rose by outcompeting their competitors through trade, warfare and diplomacy.
It fell due to internal political troubles of various kind making it unable to cope with the larger political dimension outside its borders.

They should add a part to the sticky.
>Veeky Forums is not /int/ with dates

>Croat
Then why do you care about Zara?

I don't speak germ, but I assume dark brown means "other land held by Venice".
Why are Tessalonica, Rhodes and the apulian coast not brown?

Stockholm syndrome towards the centuries of hungarian cucking.

...

I played Venice in Medieval2 and the byzantines sided with turks and always attacked me so fuck those byzantie fags

b8
But med2 is a great game but horrifically historically inaccurate

Venice was aided by the forces of Judaism who are / were aided by demons and the armies of hell.

>Eyy Enrico, those Tzatzikis in Constantinople keep muscling in on our binisses
>I kno just the guy
>"Hires barbaric Franks"
>"OOGA BOOGA GOD WILLS IT ORTHODOX HEATHENS!"
>"Venetian hand-rubbing intensifies"

>zara
>not a blight on the Adriatic

That feel when Greek but with noble Venetian heritage on one side. I don't know how to feel about this.

The Adriatic is rightful Italian clay.

>a fucking BLIND 90 year old leads the Venetian attack on Constantinople
What the fuck

lol, you're the opposite of me (I'm a Veniceboo)

Do people in Veneto care about their history? I can see why many of the other regions would be indifferent but Venetians and Ligurians have many good reason to reminisce.

Nothing rightful about being a cunt. The only reason I play EU4 as Ragusa is to went out my anger and make sure Venice doesn't exist as soon as possible. I've been thinking of keeping a leaderboard and comparing my times more easily.

GIVE BACK FIUME
GIVE BACK ISTRIA
GIVE BACK DALMAZIA

Shit son you have no ideas.
We're the most "separatist" of all italian regions, due to our heritage of a millennia-long indipendent republic, and pretty much all the rest of italy hates us for this.
Trust me, utter the words "Serenissima Repubblica" around here and you'll have more boners than people.

>hurr durr look at me I'll play an OPM so I can pretend my game was rough, nevermind the fact that I'm permanently guaranteed by the strongest power in the game

>waaaah Ottomans guaranteeing for Ragusa is not fair even though they warn Ragusa before Ragusa can even declare a war on anyone waaaah

I like both
Checkmate

What comic?

Lake of Fire.

>implying they intervene when you attack bosnia and, by proxy, serbia

>Shit son you have no ideas.
>We're the most "separatist" of all italian regions, due to our heritage of a millennia-long indipendent republic, and pretty much all the rest of italy hates us for this.
>Trust me, utter the words "Serenissima Repubblica" around here and you'll have more boners than people.

Fuck, I did not expect that! Are they Lega Nord supporters? I always thought they were more popular in Milan etc. Which of the regions is your modern-day arch-rival? Is it still Liguria?

Lega Nord has shifted more its focus on Italian Nationalism after various scandals. Also, people from Veneto kinda hate each other, especially Verona and Vicenza

I wonder who blinded said old Venetian, hmmmm....

The Eternal Byzantine.

Oh sweet revenge.

Liguria hasn't mattered to Venetians since 1381. Fucking lombards with their Padania bullshit are much more of a hassle.
Also seconding the user saying we hate each others the most: intercity rivalries is where it's at. Venice nowadays is an irrelevance tho.

You're a fascist, you should love the italians

Venetians were hated more than Turks by people they ruled in Balkans and Greece.
You actually had cases of Christians supporting Turks over Venetians.

There's nothing a debtor hates more than his creditor.
People don't change much.

>debtor
I'm talking about places ruled by Venice m8. Like Istria, Dalmatia, Montenegro, Albania, parts of Greece, Crete and so on.

based Dandolo

It's not true however. Venice didn't suffer anymore revolts than it was common for any multiethnic states of the same period, and you have very frequent cases of christians supporting turks against pretty much every christian nation that fought them.

>dindunuffin dey wuz gud boiz
t. Antonio Mozzarella

>no argument
Pay denbts Ioannis.

Have noone been to "Venitia"? Terrible place. Have to go by boat! Jetty smell of fish! Cannal smell of sewer and muck. People smell like Huns. Yuck! People rude, long noses and gross cackles! People act like their pigeons do, picking up every bit of bread (and coin) you drop! And streets flood, smell like poo again. Cisterns infested with seawather! The Hinterlands are shit too! Look like boring dry Turkish lands! Crops are for grow to shit! Bleh!

Lega Nord practically only caters to Veneto and Lombardy nowadays, so yeah I'd dare say the ample majority of Veneto votes for Lega Nord (I do it myself). As far as intr-regional rivalries go, Veneto has it against the whole of southern Italy (one pretty famous saying recites "Venezia capitale, Po confine nazionale"->Venice [as] capitol, the Po [as] national border). But as others said, we excel at inter-regional rivalries, annd you dont wanna get me started on that.

Why so much hate for the South? The Mafia/Camorra/'Ndraghetta couldn't possibly be as huge and pervasive as they are and have been historically without the co-operation of the Northern Italian business/political establishment. The P2 scandal and the relationship between the P2 members, the 3 traditional criminal organisations and the Banda della Magliana is a very good example.

Dont get me wrong, there is no denying southern mafia is sponsored by the north, but that's not quite the issue: we see them as backwards, and a leech on the country.
First, they lack civil sense and manners (skipping queues, talking loudly, NO DRIVING SKILLS), and then they have some fucking retarded flaws like rampant favoritism/nepotism -granted, that afflicts us aswell-, public corruption -dozens of Comuni have been disbanded due to mafia-, an unhealthy attachment to religion, which in turn in the south is unhealthily close to the mafia -oftentimes, when a Comune organizes a religious procession, if said Comune hosts some mafia boss they stop and pay homage-, a retarded concept of honour to uphold -you cant speak bad of OBJECTIVELY bad cities like napoli that you'll have the entire neapolitan population at your troath-, and a general lack of self-awareness about how they're trashing our country, mixed with delusional nostalgia about the "good old times" when the south was prosper, which they -wrongly- objectify as the Kingdom of Naples, thus also sparking some equally delusional monarchist sentiments -which are thorougthly hated here, save by the terroni-.
That enough? I can go on.

What about Southern Italy?

Doesn't Naples want independence despise having been a different country for centuries?

The eternal merchant screwing over the architects and scholars, nothing new in human history.

Italy would be a better place with the Monarchy still intact.
Although the same could be said about every European country.

As with most separatist movements, it's usually richest regions that seek to secede because they think they'd be better off on their own.

Venice started to really rise after it defeated its arch rival Genoa which was trying to control the same market with several really violent wars. After that Venice rivaled Ottomans

...

Yes; and that's precisely because we northeners seek indipendence, or at least larger autonomy: we contribute 80% of the annual revenue, and retain only 20%, while there are southern regions who do the opposite. As I said, leeches.
Also the south seeks indipendence for another reason: delusional monarchists who think italy ruined the south and that they were better off before the unification. No bitch, WE at the north were better off before.

The South was indeed much wealthier than it is now, one look at the art and architecture of the region from the time of the Kingdom of Naples confirms that. Of course, as you say, the reason they are shit now has nothing to do with Italian unification but rather the fact that they were ran by a backwards, autocratic monarchy or were essentially the colony of others for a long time and as such they missed important milestones such as the industrial revolution.

I still don't think Italy would be better off it you split. I mean eventually the EU will become one big country and it's highly likely that all these seccesionary states will be allowed to exist as provinces but until then it would just make your country smaller and less important. It would be much smarter to actually try and fix that region. If you tackled the inefficiency, corruption, low education etc. and made that region achieve its full potential you could easily reach or even surpass France's economy.

[spoiler] But then the North wouldn't be muh special civilised snowflake region anymore so maybe you don't want that. [/spoiler]

Tsk-tsk. user. We've tried. We've tried since the very beginning. And I mean the VERY beginning: the Sinistra Storica (the very first governing party after unification) immediately tried to improve condition and pushing for better agricultural partitions of the land (south was 100% estates), but the place was still then plagued by brigants (the government had to send in the army several times). People openly and vehemently opposed "the new", as so eloquently described in Giovanni Verga's novels about his homeland. Then came Mussolini, and something was done (land reclamations) but the south still couldnt progress past the agricultural sector.
After WW2 there were prolonged and systematic efforts by various governments to industrialize the south (cassa del mezzogiorno), resulting only in what today are "cathedrals in the desert". Granted, the efforts were ineffective, not-so-well thought and riddled with corruption, but that is what you get when you deal with the south.

Also let's not confuse "they had art and literature" with actual economical wealth. The kingdom of naples produced a smart and prolific elite of thinkers and literates trough mecenarism, while 99.9% of the populations kept on tilling the same swath of land until their death. No real manifacturing industries and trade centers like the north.
The hypotetical split would indeed be an harm to both of us, and even though the north could definitely recover and reach greater heights...eh...I'd say we've given up on that. Like, sure, we like to say "we're superior gibe indipendence now", but 150 years and two world wars have built a national identity, however multicultural and open to very different interpretations.
Also yeah, if we could hypotetically unlock the potential of the south while also getting rid of the corruption, we'd trash france. But that an inanely big "if"

>Tsk-tsk. user. We've tried. We've tried since the very beginning.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying this is why the South failed to advance, there are far too many reasons for this. BUT in what you describe I a problem, that can be seen with lots of nation-building. Solutions have to be tailored to the area, you cannot impose a system that developed in the North through centuries of very different history and expect it to work without tweaking it. First off, I would have never tried to dislodge the system they had in place (because as you can see it went underground), I would legitimise it and let it rule for me, the same way the Brits ruled all of India "with 10 soldiers and a bike" as the phrase goes. Also industrialisation, isn't the only route to go especially nowadays. The South could be a regional leader in tourism (rather than shitty crowded beaches with concrete, it could have tasteful seaside developments) which brings in megabucks, it could be a regional leader in agricultural produce and indeed some of Europe's best fruit and veg grows there and the high-quality food industry has an enormous added value attached to it and of course it would be a very popular destination for people from all over Europe and the world to study in, if you promoted the education system (the UK makes shit-tons of money from foreign students). Why would anyone choose to study in fucking Manchester, Nottingham or Kent if there was a better or equal English-speaking uni in beautiful Apulia?

>Also let's not confuse "they had art and literature" with actual economical wealth.

>The kingdom of naples produced a smart and prolific elite of thinkers and literates trough mecenarism, while 99.9% of the populations kept on tilling the same swath of land until their death.
I'm sure those serfs weren't terrible happy about that just as they aren't terribly happy about living in fucking Scampia now. Not owning their own bit of land must have destroyed these people and it creates a dependent mentality in the poorer sections of society that can be seen in other parts of the world where individual land ownership was rare. Of course to challenge this you need to annoy some very wealthy people, or at least pay them off.

>No real manifacturing industries and trade centers like the north.
Among other reasons, you developed these sectors because unlike the bountiful South you could not really on an endless supply of food from a place with perfect farming conditions, nor did you have the amount of land that they had since you were split in tiny city-states. They didn't need to find those solutions and of course their backwards rulers never promoted them either (look at Spain, same story).

>Also yeah, if we could hypotetically unlock the potential of the south while also getting rid of the corruption, we'd trash france. But that an inanely big "if"
Yes user...but just imagine it...just imagine!

>In EU4 Venice and Genoa make an unholy alliance and BTFO Austria and the Ottomans

That would mean that they could take over the rest of Italy too and all of the Balkans. Imagine an Italian (with a Veneto-Genoan twist) Balkans instead of the Ottomanshit ones. Why must real-history suck so much some times?

;____;

Well this thread turned out a lot more civil than I thought it was gonna be.

>mfw this thread

GIVE BACK TRST
GIVE BACK CELOVEC
GIVE BACK TRAKIJA
GVIE BACK ŁUŻYCE

It rose by trading with turks. It fell by fighting with turks.