Crusades: Pop-Culture vs Reality

They did have a point when they said there is a threat of invasion coming sooner or later to Europe.

Still better than Assassins Creed

>Muh secret Templar-Illuminati society
>Magic apple lmao
>Muh freedom to do whatever

Assassins Creed is more intended as work of fiction. KOH is more historical fiction like Ridley Scott's other work: Gladiator. Not all part of the movie is bullshit.

>most of their rivals or similar armies at the time (Muslims and Mongols) do pretty much the same

The Muslims didn't do it when Salah ad-Din liberated al-Quds (Jerusalem) from the crusaders. Plus they spared the Christian holy sites.

The brutality of the crusaders was the exception, not the rule.

>considering the aim of the first one was supposed to help/assists Constantinople
lol no

The Latin Christians never cared about helping Constantinople, it was just an excuse they used to justify invading to seize new lands for their knights and nobility, and for access to valuable commodities.

Mudslime detected.

>The brutality of the crusaders was the exception, not the rule.
Gee, do you know what was happening prior to the pilgrims prior to the first crusade? Siege of Raud? 2nd siege of Antioch?

>Mudslime

try again when you're less butthurt at reality

>what was the catholic massarce

While the Mongols also did it, they're known infamously for being the cruel exception. Events like the stacking of skulls or the slaughter in Jerusalem were beyond the pale for a reason, because usual treatment was either a negotiated handover or a sacking, which in the Medieval period would range from 3 days of mostly bloodless looting to 3 days of sporadic individual murders with some looting.

The Jerusalem massacre, if it wasn't just literary exaggeration, was likely the unique result of an atmosphere of religious fervor, one where the scale of violence itself was the aim in order to fulfill certain apocalyptic beliefs of the time.

Try refuting his points, Achmed

Kingdom of heaven and ass creed are pro-islam shit.

Kingdom of Heaven
Catholics shown in worst possible light while muslims shown as noble I DONT WANNA INVADE BUT I GOTTA

ass creed
byzantines bad guys and ottomans didu nufin except invade and annex their home.

>when u go crusading and sack a giant city of heretics but the pope excommunicates you

>Not all part of the movie is bullshit.

Yeah but you're drawing a comparison to a movie where the fictional main character murders Commodus in a gladiator arena.

>The brutality of the crusaders was the exception, not the rule.

No, Saladin's good behavior was the exception.

t. someone who never paid attention to either

The Muslims are just given less screen time, not made more noble. Of the ones that even had speaking lines you had an aristocratic asshole trying to murder the hero for his honor, a soldier trying to be a noble knight, a good king on a precarious throne, and a political animal of a priest threatening to undermine him and sacrifice lives without risking himself.

In Assassin's Creed Revelations like half of all your targets are people who simply turned to the Templars because of the Ottoman invasions, and the big bad evil guy ended up being an Ottoman prince anyway.

And then you've got the animus database; that with which a straight face tells you that the Janissary system "was totally noble you guys"

>levying and conscription only existed in Ottomans

assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Database:_Janissaries

Bullshit. The database entry is mostly about how the Janissaries are an uncontrollable paramilitary force that nobody wanted to fuck with, even the Ottoman bureaucracy itself.

There's a difference between levying and conscription and kidnapping kids, converting them into Islam and forcing them to guard the man that ordered their kidnapping
>conscripting
>when it's actually kidnapping
Yikes

namecalling isn't making points

>his

They did not "kidnap" anyone. The officials went to the cities and took one children from some families under a system of bureaucracy, if the family had only one child it wasn't taken. They pretty much conscripted promising children to be trained. The system was abolished in 1600s.

How is saying "they were a powerful class" either false or suggesting they're noble?
How hard, exactly, are you trying to twist this shit to make a point?
Also the line between kidnapping and conscripting is pretty thin when both are basically forced into military service, you're just splitting hairs and shifting goalposts because someone called you on your 'totally noble' statement. What do you qualify as kidnapping versus conscription, when it's literally the government doing it? Does the Sultan sneak into Christian homes and pluck babies from their cribs at night, or do they send somebody to go "your child belongs to the state now, that's the law"? Because yes, there is a distinction.

Not to mention plenty of people fucking volunteered because it offered opportunity.

>There's a difference between levying and conscription and kidnapping kids

You're right, and the Janissary system was conscription, not kidnapping. Kidnapping is the unlawful taking of someone by another against his legal rights. It doesn't apply when the government has a law in place involving an institution where kids are picked out by bureaucratic oversight. It's unfortunate - which the database itself says for the Ottoman captain's entry - but it's conscription all the same. Calling it kidnapping would be like calling a state sanctioned public execution murder.

He provided examples that you're still ignoring, actually.

Not him but that's complete bullshit. Forcing a blood tax on villages you conquered is kidnapping.
I'll exagarate, but that's like saying that Hitler wasn't genociding the Jews because they were deemed subhuman.

I'm not saying it was the world's nicest practice, but neither is fucking conscription, the prominent difference is one is illegal and one is government sanctioned. In either case, regardless of the morality of the blood tax, the guy is trying to draw this big dichotomy to make a point that apparently, by saying "conscripted" instead of "kidnapped" that the Assassins Creed game is pro-Islam and glorifying the Janissary system as being something noble. That was, after all, his explicit argument here Ottomans dindu nuffin
Janissary system "was totally noble you guys"

Obviously he's completely full of shit but he'll probably keep shifting goalposts with low-tier sophistry until he's convinced himself he's right.

The fact that the people called it "the blood tax" and there were instances of parents crippling their children shows you what they thought
>They pretty much conscripted promising children to be trained
Very, very disingenuous.

They didn't just train them, they took them, converted them and trained them to follow the sultan, forbidding them from having any families until they forced the state to agree

>How hard, exactly, are you trying to twist this shit to make a point?
How much are you?
>Also the line between kidnapping and conscripting is pretty thin when both are basically forced into military service, you're just splitting hairs and shifting goalposts because someone called you on your 'totally noble' statement
Again, disingenuous. Conscripts usually serve until the war/ military service is over and then go home. These guys never got to go home again, usually forgetting their families and homes (notable exception is Sokollu Mehmed Pasha)
>Does the Sultan sneak into Christian homes and pluck babies from their cribs at night, or do they send somebody to go "your child belongs to the state now, that's the law
>the government does it so it's okay

>Not to mention plenty of people fucking volunteered because it offered opportunity
>some people volunteered means it's okay to kidnap other people's kids

>It doesn't apply when the government has a law in place involving an institution where kids are picked out by bureaucratic oversight
>Calling it kidnapping would be like calling a state sanctioned public execution murder

Just went full retard. Have to break Godwin's law here, but it's like saying the holocaust wasn't murder because the german state considered them subhumans

>the prominent difference is one is illegal and one is government sanctioned
Government can't kidnap? Things that make you go hmm...

Tell me, what is the difference between the Janissary system and the Stolen Generation?

It's literally conscription and they abolished it in 1600s. Do you also think conscription or levies were also blood tax?

Honestly I fucking hate turkroaches but listening to balkannigger propaganda when there are dozens of books from American and British resources alone on Ottoman history with perfect detail since Ottomans kept record of all of this is retarded. The people who were talking about bloodtax were talking about it in 1800s as a way to get people to raise up to the Ottoman government almost 2 centuries later after the system was abolished.

It's not. It's conscription, literally. You can call it unjust, but to call it kidnapping is exaggerating for moral and not literal or legal reasons. The process was highly regulated.

>>They pretty much conscripted promising children to be trained
>Very, very disingenuous.
It's not. That was the stated objective of the Ottoman officials - they were purposefully selecting able-bodied and healthy boys for the sole purpose of training. In what way and world is that disingenuous? Hell the rest of the entry and other articles specifically mentions their loyalty, conversion, and sad love lives.

systematic murder of an ethnic group doesn't compare to military conscription
try again

>Just went full retard. Have to break Godwin's law here, but it's like saying the holocaust wasn't murder because the german state considered them subhumans

You're right. That's why it's called genocide. That you had to reach for such an exaggerated example just to buttress a point that can't stand on its own two legs is the end of the debate really.

>the government does it so it's okay

Yes, because kidnapping is by definition unlawful abduction. This was, for better or worse, lawful. Nobody is fucking defending the practice, they're calling you a dishonest asshole and saying it isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be. You're still shifting your goalposts radically from
Where you made a statement, got BTFO, and then tried to make it like everyone is defending the Jannisaries when they're just saying that Assassins Creed ISN'T defending the Janissaries. Literally your only argument stems on them using the word conscript instead of kidnap and using that to assert that they said the jannissaries were "totally noble."

You're the one being fucking dishonest here. Stop shifting the goalposts.

>sole purpose of training
And the conversion was just, what, cherry on the cream?
>conscription
There's that word again.

Tell me, in what way do life long conscripts differ from warrior slaves?
>durr it wasn't murder it was genocide xDDDD
Does this post serve anything but to showcase your sophistry?

And fine, let go of the Holocaust. What about the Night of the long knives?
Only that isn't me my arseravaged friend

>Government can't kidnap?

Governments can and do break the law and do something illegally. In that circumstance it's unlawful abduction.

>Only that isn't me my arseravaged friend
So you're saying there's two idiots who got BTFO and have to shift goalposts just to keep up.

As for the difference between the Janissary system and the Stolen Generation they're actually quite similar, though I don't know much about the latter. I still don't see how you're making a point, nobody is saying the Ottomans were super nice.

>Tell me, in what way do life long conscripts differ from warrior slaves?

Janissaries were paid both regularly and by campaign. They also went through education.

It's government sanctioned kidnapping of what amounts to basically (sometimes paid) slaves, not conscription.
They took children, converted them to Islam and brainwashed them. They didn't get to choose anything and they were forced to stay there, almost never returning to their parents. Or even better, if they happened to return to their village they did so with an army that burned and pillaged it.

>Only that isn't me my arseravaged friend

So instead you weighed in on a subject making a pedantic argument only marginally related to the initial discussion.

>Does this post serve anything but to showcase your sophistry?
Sure, because your personal, emotionally driven opinions of it are irrelevant. It's supposed to point out that I'm going by the dictionary, not my feelings like a woman. Saying taxation is theft is hyperbole, just as saying blood tax is kidnapping is.

>YOU'RE MOVING GOALPOSTS
>that isn't me
>YOU'RE BOTH GETTING BTFO!!!!
Good discussion
The point I was trying to make is that the game glosses over why the Janissary recruitment system was shit when it usually takes a stand against such stuff, so they're either showing a certain bias or are just plain incompetent
A choice they were never given and they never made.
The Stolen Generations are widely considered as kidnappings by the UN and most human rights groups around the world. The Janissary system was just a harsher version of it

>It's government sanctioned kidnapping of what amounts to basically (sometimes paid) slaves, not conscription.

That is the definition of conscription. Or pressganging. How long they were conscripted for doesn't make it not conscription, and their activities while conscripted doesn't make it not conscription.

All people who went through janissary system were paid, the bureaucrats were often also assigned back to their home villages. The Janissary were paid regularly and paid in bonuses whenever a new Sultan got to the throne. They also trained for years, thought in various classes including Islam.

Yes, they were brainwashed and yes the system is cruel by today's standards but nobody claimed otherwise. It's literal conscription, not "kidnapping" which implies the children were raided and brought back on horses to be made into soldiers directly.

>>YOU'RE MOVING GOALPOSTS
>>that isn't me
>>YOU'RE BOTH GETTING BTFO!!!!
>Good discussion

Only that isn't me my arseravaged friend ;^)

>>that isn't me
It didn't have to be. The two quoted posts weren't quoted to show that a goal post had been shifted between them. They were quoted to show that since they had been made the argument has gone from claiming the game is showing the Janissary system to be noble, and that the Ottomans dindunuffin, to saying conscription is not the right word to describe it (even though it is).

Hell, I was half expecting shit like 'Every parent hoped their kid would be Janissaries because they were sooo awesome!' when you guys brought it up, but instead it's this nonsense, and the more I read the database entries the more I see that it's straightforward and dry, standard historical wiki.

>The point I was trying to make is that the game glosses over why the Janissary recruitment system was shit when it usually takes a stand against such stuff, so they're either showing a certain bias or are just plain incompetent

So basically the game needs to pull out all the stops with a heavy-handed moralistic judgement of how evil the Ottomans are or else it's pro-ottomans they dindu nuffin?

>the game glosses over why the Janissary recruitment system was shit
But it doesn't. The entry was about the Janissary itself, and the short blurb on the system was just that. The entry on the Janissary Captain Tarik goes into more detail and paints a sort of tragic life for him. Hell that's really the whole point of the game's story. People are hung up over being personally triggered by the setting, saying it demonizes this, glorifies that, when the game is about unhappy people stressed into doing shady or dangerous things for the wrong people or wrong reasons.

People are so lost in this hate for ottomans dry, objective history will be seen as Islam loving leftist propaganda, anything less than calling them anti-christ and worst people ever will.

The game shouldn't make judgements at all; but when you've already gone down that road it seems off that you'll shit on everyone then act impartial with these guys
The problem here is that while we're teaching objective history (an act that is ludicrously impossible btw) the Islamic countries and Erdogan's neo ottomans are painting them as angels come forth

But as points out Stolen Generation kids are classified as kidnapped, despite it being government sanctioned foster care if you break it down like that.

>The game shouldn't make judgements at all
And it goes out of its way to not make judgements at all.

Nice job not reading till the end
>Suleiman is basically an anime twink
>not a single good byzantine character in the whole game
>muh poor oppressed gypsies

It's not illegal if the president does it.

>But as points out Stolen Generation kids are classified as kidnapped, despite it being government sanctioned foster care if you break it down like that.

The term is disputed by those who say they were kidnapped and those who say they were not. It's still current politics, one with still existing government officials defending government actions while their political rivals attack it.

For 16th century Ottoman politics, modern historians tend towards neutral, legalistic, and academic language. You can bet that plenty of 16th century Christian writers also considered it kidnapping, and so did Islamic theologians at the time, but within the Ottoman bureaucracy the process was run like conscription, whereas raiding for slaves outside of the empire and trading them within it was more like kidnapping and human trafficking.

Most Arabs hate Ottomans, whole of Balkans also hate Ottomans, Russians hate Ottomans, there is enough to counter balance them. So it's what, because of 80 million Turks alone and their populist propaganda we should not try to look at history as objectively as possible?

>war crime
Well memed my friend

>>Suleiman is basically an anime twink
Who is naive and idealistic, would have gotten himself killed without Ezio's protection, and ends up killing someone who was trying to protect the empire because of paranoia.

>>not a single good byzantine character in the whole game
There were literally two Byzantine characters in the whole game: Leandros and Manuel. The first was your standard tough guy asshole, the second was just an old man who was being used but otherwise wasn't shown to be bad, just your usual 'we have to guide the people' Templar.

>>muh poor oppressed gypsies
I was talking about political judgements (outside of the inane Templar/Assassin philosophy bullshit). The games have always been deferential to thieves and prostitutes because they're Ezio's allies.

And the bishop who was just fighting against the invaders?
>The games have always been deferential to thieves and prostitutes because they're Ezio's allies
Yes, but you don't have thieves or whores hold lectures to you about the outsiders oppress them

Literally every culture that encountered the Armenians seemed to feel the same way.

(You)
>>when u go crusading and sack a giant city of heretics but the pope excommunicates you
>heretics
>your face when the only real dogmatic difference between orthodoxy and catholicism is filioque
It's almost like the real term for this is schismatic, like the ones that caused this schism is catholics.

Shitty schism done for no reason other than lust for power. It's completely unchristian.

It's because the European crusaders go against the Byzantine empire's stance of 'no looting or harming the innocent'. If they just stick to stopping the Turks advance things might ended differently.

Next time
PAY YOUR DENBTS

strangenotions.com/the-crusdades-urban-legends-and-truth/

This might help for those still curious

>When you wanted him dead because he is an infidel with a big zealous army, but you kinda have a weird sense of respect for him.
>But you still wanted to kill him anyway

>Mfw when his holiness is giving the speech

Deus Vult brother

Yes.. Deus Vult fratrem

>itt: A bunch of arabs and white guilt people defending muslim invasions and worrying about the not unusual for that era massacre here and there.
The muslims were the first to draw blood against christians. Remember how they wiped out some of the ethnicities of North africa, the levant, and anatolia.

are you implying this applies to both of them, because it does