I always hear the Left and Libertarians say immigration helps a nation's economy. The Right say that it pushes the lowest class out of the market, and also the immigrants go on welfare.
Is Immigration good for a nation's economy? Is it good for the quality of life of the citizens? Does welfare throw a wrench into all of this?
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Immigration is horrible for all aspects, worse being quality of life of citizens. They tend to raise crime rates, drop household income, drop standard of living, increase unemployment, and drain the country's welfare system. They also often do not share the values and ideals of their new country which creates lots of problems
Yes, yes, and no.
They help businesses by providing better labor at lower costs.
The institution of welfare is the problem, not the people taking advantage of it.
I think you have a correlation versus causation issue there with those statistics you cited. The second point is valid, but I believe the benefit that they provide to businesses outweigh their difficulty in assimilating to American culture (as if America has a cohesive culture anyway).
Foreigners file more parents than natives here in the USA, most of our inventors aren't natives, much of our STEM workers are immigrants, and they contribute greatly to the economy and provide jobs and create wealth
It outweighs the shitty jobs displaced by immigrants, who don't even end up claiming benefits often cause they can't, but still pay sales taxes
Red pill me on that girls sweet pussy.
Doesn't look like a typical native.
>the Left says...helps economy
They don't say that. They just like immigrants because immigrants are poor and likely to vote for whichever party gives them handouts (the Left).
The Right is wrong about immigrants pushing the lowest class out. Immigrants typically become the lowest class.
America no longer has a cohesive culture for that very reason
>America
>culture
You're all European emmigrants with a different government basically
Not an argument
Christian and protestant values made America great
>English: Christian
Then we get to "immigrants" that came after
>Germans: Christian
>French: Christian
>Irish: Christian
>Italians: Christian
>African Ex-Slaves: Christian
>Slavs: Christian
>Hispanics: Christian
>Asians: Non-Christian
Yea all those non-Christians are a real threat to American Christianity...
>Is Immigration good for a nation's economy? Is it good for the quality of life of the citizens? Does welfare throw a wrench into all of this?
Selective immigration is generally good for an economy; unlimited, uncontrolled immigration ranges for neutral to catastrophic for an economy.
With selective immigration, only immigrants who are very skilled, have no criminal background, and are very likely to contribute positively to the country are beneficial to a nation. However, this can actually hurt an economy under systems such as H1-B, which is an indentured servant program more than an immigration system. H1-B also is exactly the opposite of a program for increasing diversity as you'll notice that very, very few Eastern Europeans are in the U.S. on H1-B despite the fact that working in the U.S. would be a very attractive proposition for many of them. Examples of how immigration is good for the country can be seen by entrepreneurs such as Andy Grove, Sergei Brin, Vinod Khosla, etc. To a certain degree, professional athletes and entertainers can be seen to be beneficial to a nation's economy. They most probably will not be a negative even though they don't really create businesses.
Unlimited, uncontrolled immigration (open borders), which is what the Democrats want, can be neutral (maybe even positive) to catastrophic. I'll talk about the catastrophic scenario. Uncontrolled immigration is catastrophic if a nation has a welfare system that the immigrants can use, if the nation forces its citizen to adapt to the immigrants rather than the other way around, and if the nation gives preferential treatment to the immigrants over citizens despite there not being any merit in doing so.
Consider the Hispanic issue in the U.S., which was a hot button of the recent election. Why is it that Hispanics qualify for affirmative action in the U.S. despite the fact that they came to this country voluntarily?
she doesn't even look like a native
Why are so many public service provided in Spanish despite the fact that for this nation's entire history (when we ceased to be a colony), every major development has been conducted in English? Why are there preferential admissions for Hispanic people into government jobs, institutes of higher education, and hiring despite the fact that, as a whole, the Hispanic people score lower in many factors measured for success?
That destroys the meritocratic (yes, it's never been a perfect meritocracy) nature of what made the U.S. successful. Furthermore, if you look in the U.S. prison system, Hispanics make up a very large percentage of the prison population. While one can argue that racism has something to do with the elevated numbers, it cannot explain the extent of the overrepresentation nor can it explain the horrific nature of the crimes.
On the flip side, without a welfare state, the U.S. would go back to how it was in the early 20th century with relatively open borders. People came to the U.S. and had to either be able to make a living on their own, get help from people who voluntarily help others (unlike now, where everyone is forced to help non-Americans under threat of incarceration), or go elsewhere (home or another country.) No civilized country has such a laissez faire system today so it's difficult to know if such a program would still be successful nowadays since travelling long distances is much easier than in the past.
That ability to travel long distances makes it easier for peoples who are culturally dissimilar (usually from countries much farther away) from arriving in a country.
It's a mixed bag. But with the existence of a welfare state, all countries should have immigration laws that select immigrants who will happily try to fit in with existing society and will not be a burden. You only need look at Switzerland: they avoided much of the brouhaha over Muslims, Mexicans, or Africans many other nations are struggling with.
but many immigrant groups (south and east asians) frequently make more money than whites on average
>I always hear the Left and Libertarians say immigration helps a nation's economy.
That was true for a period of time, but things have changed. In most developed countries productivity hasn't increased much since 2010 in comparison to the average. Growth (economic not population) is also stagnant while while immigration remains constant. Without increases in productivity and growth, immigration cannot be sustained indefinitely.
That's a fallacy. The wealthy ones that can afford to immigrate here do. And they bring their wealth with them. You think if they have money they'd want to stay in Asia? You're out of your mind. It's a literal third world there. So of course if you have 1.6 billion chinese alone, and their 1% class (1% of 1.6 billion -- their middle class is the size of the entire US population) obviously they're going to "make more" than an entire hierarchy of white Americans. The reverse is true. If I wanted to move to China or Japan, I would be "more wealthier/making more" than Asians in their own country. By which, most of them live under $10 USD a day. The exchange rates are also ridiculous. $1 to 6 RMB. Same thing with the Japanese Yen. It's a false illusion, and one they try to cling to. Just remember: they're the ones constantly trying to get in to white countries, not the other way around. Source: Someone who traveled around China for 35 days. Literal shitholes, even the capital. People were literally barbecuing rodents and animals on the street.
Pretty much, world is full and the cream is over flowing. Call some place paradise kiss it goodbye. There will never be enough walls to stop the flow of monkeys so I've pretty much resigned to it but doesn't help when governments in politically correct mode open the flood gates, they will never be able to close them when a critical mass flow is reached. Global melting pot and 21st century is going to be absolutely brutal for most.
who gives a shit about culture
In the long run, it helps everyone (e.g. Page's and Brin's parents coming to US, and google being founded later on. Same shit with NVIDIA, Guidewire, etc...). In the short run - a lot of pain for existing workers who can't compete with the best and the brightest coming in.
Obviously I'm not talking about Indian 2 year degree HB1 monkeys.
how about we stop welfare for imigrants and let them pay rent for the ability to work here. That money can go directly to real citizens.
Whoever pays for having to live somewhere will probably not shit on it.
funny how easy it is to think of these rational solutions, right?
The only thing that will do is encourage illegal immigration.
literally all of that girls attractive features are from their white side. you can literally see the white in them. it's like you took a typical ugly ass native american girl and a pretty white girl and just morphed it into one person.
It's going to be good for her when I integrate my load into her ass to mouth
>grab her by the pussy
The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers (2013) $113b/yr
archive.is
Taxes:
The Fiscal Cost of Unlawful Immigrants and Amnesty to the U.S. Taxpayer $54.3b/yr
Heritage May 2013 archive.is
Education:
Educating illegal immigrants costs $44.5b Annually
AJC August 2016 archive.is
The cost to educate unaccompanied minor illegal immigrants over $761 million
Washington Times September 2014 archive.is
How Illegal Immigrants Can Pay for College $32m Federal Scholarships, In State Tuitions
USNews August 2014 archive.is
Scholarships for Undocumented Students
scholarships.com February 2016 archive.is
Healthcare:
$4.3b/yr Care Costs for Undocumented Immigrants Absorbed by Hospitals
Healthcare Finance News November 2013 archive.is
Illegal Immigrants Account for $10.7 Billion of Nation’s Health Care Costs, Data Show
CNSNews July 2009 archive.is
Immigrant Labor:
Mass Migration Driving Down Wages
Telegraph December 2015 archive.is
Increasing the Supply of Labor Through Immigration: Measuring the Impact on Native-born Workers -4%wages/yr
CIS April 2004 archive.is
All Employment Growth Since 2000 Went to Immigrants
CIS June 2014 archive.is
Immigrant Entrepeneurs: 1/4 of new business hire 1/2 as many employees as Native Entrepeneurs
CEPR August 2016 archive.is
I haven't seen senses of blind delusion and self-importance of this degree since you flaccid pigs trudged through the S&L crisis.
Looking outward for the sources of your socioeconomic failures might be comforting, but not as comforting as watching the vast WASP middle-mediocre class dissolve from the inside outward.
>Is Immigration good for a nation's economy?
Maybe.
When the left talk about immigration they are taking about bringing people in who have money and skills. They spend that money on food, housing, phone plans, etc boosting the economy. They then go get jobs producing valuable things which increases the economic output of their host country. Even in this best case the local citizens are now forced to compete with more people so it's not very good for them.
If the people you bring in have no money but are willing to work it can still result in above but it costs the citizens of your country to get them started off.
If the people you are brining in have no money and no desire to work you have problems. They end up being a drag on your economy and your citizens end up paying for them indefinitely.
The worst case is the people you bring in not only don't work they attempt to destroy your country either via cultural or direct means. These people are so costly to a society the idea of not allowing anyone who is likely to take this route has real merit.
Ideally you would import people with money and skills who want to work and from cultures which do not clash with your own which was a common sense thing not long ago but is now decried as racist and islamophobic today because we have become fucking retarded.
There exists a rough consensus in the field of economics (a rare thing indeed) that immigration grows an economy. This holds especially true in the US, where the standard of living is incredible, even for the homeless and destitute (let's not forget that the moment we as a species stopped being animals, we still lived in caves and huts). More individuals participating in the economy stimulates it, speeding growth.
This is all very reductionist and theoretical, but that's roughly how the logic plays out.
You have to differentiate between US immigration and Europoor immigration.
US created a system where they leech mostly migrants with the latest and greatest skills who usually have at least modest amounts of money.
The type of immigrant Europoor nations receive is a completely different animal. Social systems in western Europe make even the worst outcomes ( living on benefits, not working = free apartment + healthcare+ education) for shit tier immigrants more desirable than staying in their home country. Even worse is that those who have little to nothing to lose and are already losers in their own countries have the highest propensity to migrate to Europe since all they can do is winning.
Of course this system can never reach stable equilibrium until condition for immigrants become the same as in their home countries.
economically yes, it's pretty much always a plus
even if they're poor they will stimulate the economy just by consuming other people's goods
long term unemployment is the eventual problem
breitbart.com
Probably natives will consume less because their cities go to shit and also fewer tourists will come.
It's like saying growing cancer is good because it stimulates metabolism.
Gotta keep the ponzi scheme of life going
That's how it used to play out, when immigrants assimilated and paid taxes.
>shekels are more important than culture
Your country has no soul.
>Probably natives will consume less
highly unlikely
>It's like saying growing cancer is good because it stimulates metabolism.
what
This would all be very alarming if the immigrants were going back to their countries, but they aren't. The money's going to make it back into our economy one way or another.
not true. Without the steady immigration your economy would be even worse off. Immigrants only hurt the eco initially. With time they get a job etc.
Please stop with the rightwing memes immigration is a net positive for any economy. America will be lacking hands very soon due to demographic changes.
The "
>The money's going to make it back into our economy one way or another.
The point is the money is being removed from you to fund this scheme via taxation.
Where it goes after they take it from you is truly irrelevant to you unless you are living in a socialist country as you end up worse off from immigration despite whatever bureaucratic jobs immigration creates.
I would also argue that taxing your own people to give to intermediates to give to other people does not create anything of value and is a net drag on a economy. Even if every cent taken is paid to your own people they are producing nothing of any real value so it is still a complete loss.
>Please stop with the rightwing memes immigration is a net positive for any economy.
Ok, so it should be easy to prove then.
>Sum up half of a class on Labor Economics for me
I can't do that in a handful of Veeky Forums posts. Most people who are going to respond to this thread are trolls and ideologues.
It is good for
>immigrants
>rich people who employ them
It is bad for
>White trash who can't compete with pablo
>Nerd trash who can't compete with poointheloo engineer
Problem with blue collar working class is that they falsely think the nation belongs to them.
>Ok, so it should be easy to prove then.
Sure
Our economy needs perpetual growth in consumption.
Immigration increases the consumer population. It's even better than increasing birthrates because immigrants arrive at working age and are already educated.
There's a great example of a country that doesn't have immigration and a failing economy: Japan. Japan's economy has gone nowhere since the mid 90s.
>Immigration increases the consumer population.
They are of no benefit to our economy unless they produce something of value. Simply spending money, which is just redistributed from other people in the same country is not productive. Even less so is the government mechanisms necessary to facilitate that redistribution.
The people who produce actual goods of worth, which is what all economies are based upon, not consumption btw, simply end up with less to show for their efforts and are less inclined to work.
Japan you can say is failing because their economy has stopped growing but why does it need to grow if their population is shrinking? Their standard of living is not dropping and they are no worse off than previous generations, there is simply less of them.
Your solution of simply piling people into Japan forever is absurd. When you reach the logical conclusion of your train of though and no more people can fit on their little island then what? Also how can you imagine they would be better off in the long run as a nation going that route instead of their current one?
>Immigrants only hurt the eco initially.
That wasn't the point. The point is that even with immigration, there has not been any increase in productivity or growth that occurred in years prior to 2010. That means something has changed and immigration is no longer as beneficial as it used to be.
Population growth, think labor force growth, has been linked to increases in gdp and standard of living
straya here, let me just say that there's bipartisan support for 'economic immigration' down under, just like what BOTH trump and hillary advocated for, and it's absolutely fucking us up: quantitative, but not qualitative, improvement.
plus it's easy to rort
We are suddenly getting a lot of these pooloo engineers at my work place. They are trying to code some shit for us. And I use the programs they write daily and Jesus Christ I could do a better job myself with Basic using goto commands.
Doesn't make sense to me why they are here unless it's done kind of kick back for hiring diversity
>Doesn't make sense to me why they are here unless it's done kind of kick back for hiring diversity
Your employer's kick back is not being targeted by SJW's and the media for discriminating against POC.
There is a race on atm to not be that company which draws the ire of the combined wrath of bad media attention and "public" opinion (which isn't the publics opinion but the opinion of a few loud outliers who have made themselves look like they represent the public).
If it's of any consolation with Trump being elected the metric of public opinion should be reset to the majority not giving a fuck about what color the people who work with you are.
Economic factors should never be considered an argument for or against any amount or type of immigration.
It's a nation, not a shopping mall.
To the extent you permit immigration, you allow people in because they are compatible with your lineage, ethos, and culture, not because they are cheap labor or are "skilled".